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 Need some help ,,,,,,,UPDATE # 6,,,,Success !!!!!

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
forgemonkey Posted - 01/20/2018 : 7:03:17 PM
Buddy goes to an estate sale and buys a rifle ,,,,,,he knows nothing about what he bought.

The rifle is marked on the receiver;

Fabrica National De Armas (above the crest)

Mexico.D.F. (below the crest)

1938

The barrel is marked on left side 6mm IMP

Bottom of barrel is marked ,,,,,,,, Harry McGowen SM 7 72 4400-2

I presume the IMP would be for the Ackley Improved. And research shows you can 'fire form' the 6mm Rem. to the Ackley Improved.

However, the bolt will not close on a 6mm Rem. ,,,,,,,,would the 6mm Rem. bullet be trying to force itself into the lands/grooves, preventing bolt closure???? If so, can the bullet be set back to achieve closure ??? Or could a different 'shoulder' angle be the problem ???

Your expertise is appreciated,,,,,,,,,
49   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
iceracerx Posted - 02/24/2018 : 7:57:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by forgemonkey

Update #6 ,,,,,Success,,,,


Loaded several 6mm Rem. rounds(trimmed for chamber fit) and test fired in 6mm IMP McGowan Barrel.

Bullets were a couple of thousandths into the lands for a crush fit. Fired brass looks good, primer was flush with rear of case, no bright 'ring' near base indicating brass stretch, etc.

I'll put the scope on and start working up loads for accuracy,,,,,,,might be a 'shooter' ,,,,,,,

Thanks to each and everyone of you,,,,,,,,,







A few questions if you don't mind.

1) why does the neck/shoulder 'joint' on the fire formed cases looks 'shorter' (moved toward the base of the case) then the original brass?

Wouldn't that be a concern for case life?

2) why does the IMR formed case look 'cattywampus'? Effect of the camera lens or is the case bent?

No matter what, I hope this rifle proves to be a tack driver
forgemonkey Posted - 02/24/2018 : 1:23:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by charliemeyer007

It's been a fun story, and well documented with outstanding pic's. thanks - hope it shoot good.



Thanks, Charlie,,,,,,,,the rifle came with an older Redfield (tv screen style) scope that appears to be in good condition,,,,,,,,the owner wants to try it to see if it works for him,,,,,,
charliemeyer007 Posted - 02/24/2018 : 11:28:40 AM
It's been a fun story, and well documented with outstanding pic's. thanks - hope it shoot good.
forgemonkey Posted - 02/23/2018 : 5:52:44 PM
Update #6 ,,,,,Success,,,,


Loaded several 6mm Rem. rounds(trimmed for chamber fit) and test fired in 6mm IMP McGowan Barrel.

Bullets were a couple of thousandths into the lands for a crush fit. Fired brass looks good, primer was flush with rear of case, no bright 'ring' near base indicating brass stretch, etc.

I'll put the scope on and start working up loads for accuracy,,,,,,,might be a 'shooter' ,,,,,,,

Thanks to each and everyone of you,,,,,,,,,







forgemonkey Posted - 02/23/2018 : 06:22:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by NeoBlackdog

A real man would go shoot in the snow...





,,,,,,,,'taint my gun ,,,,,,,,,
NeoBlackdog Posted - 02/22/2018 : 11:03:22 PM
A real man would go shoot in the snow...
forgemonkey Posted - 02/22/2018 : 12:20:44 PM


UPDATE 5 3/4 ,,,,,,

Finally received the 6mm Rem. dies and loaded 5 rounds for test firing,,,,,will have to wait till it quits snowing,,,,,


forgemonkey Posted - 02/18/2018 : 8:27:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by charliemeyer007

Looks good. Reminds me of the breach seater I designed/built for my 45-350 Rem Mag Ackley to place 540 gr bullets in the bore so I could fill the case with DuPont 4Fg and card wad. Open class at the first local black powder iron chicken shoot. After the first 5 rounds at which time the discovery of resulting in holes in their AR plate targets disqualified me.

The good news they loaned me a 50-70 Trapdoor rifle to finish the match. Watching the rams tip slowly over wasn't near as fun as seeing the chickens tumble down range like they were hit with a cannon.

How much and who made the new dies?



Charlie,,,,,,,Redding makes 6mm Rem. AI dies, the owner will order them. I will fire form 6mm Rem. (trimmed for chamber fit) with regular 6mm dies and then reload the fired brass with the AI dies,,,,,
charliemeyer007 Posted - 02/18/2018 : 7:11:23 PM
Looks good. Reminds me of the breach seater I designed/built for my 45-350 Rem Mag Ackley to place 540 gr bullets in the bore so I could fill the case with DuPont 4Fg and card wad. Open class at the first local black powder iron chicken shoot. After the first 5 rounds at which time the discovery of resulting in holes in their AR plate targets disqualified me.

The good news they loaned me a 50-70 Trapdoor rifle to finish the match. Watching the rams tip slowly over wasn't near as fun as seeing the chickens tumble down range like they were hit with a cannon.

How much and who made the new dies?
forgemonkey Posted - 02/18/2018 : 3:49:36 PM

UPDATE 5 1/2 ,,,,,,,,


Took a little time off from wrenching on pistols to determine test 'specs' for firing the short chambered 6mm Rem. Ackley Improved barrel.

The owner relented and will purchase the 6mm Rem. Ackley Improved dies,,,,,,,,


forgemonkey Posted - 02/14/2018 : 06:27:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by charliemeyer007

Interesting. I wonder if the case would shrink so much with a cast bullet fire forming load. I like a bullet in the front to center the case. Plus I think there is more pressure/longer even with a cast bullet load to push out the case wall, than the corn meal method.

My test for a good chamber is to drop the case back in and see if it will spin with a pick. I don't keep guns that can't the test.

I still think it was a re-ground reamer - those old guys never threw anything away. I think the rifle was meant to be loaded for, thus they never worried it was a little short on case length. Back in the 70's there was darn little in premium factory ammo and almost certainly reloads were way more accurate.

Depends on the dies but I'd bet you could load for that rifle with the dies you have now.



Charlie, just bought 6mm Rem. dies on GB and will load 'trimmed' cases for fire forming and then the owner will have to buy the AI dies,,,,,,,,I'll let you know the outcome,,,,,,,
charliemeyer007 Posted - 02/14/2018 : 02:52:35 AM
Interesting. I wonder if the case would shrink so much with a cast bullet fire forming load. I like a bullet in the front to center the case. Plus I think there is more pressure/longer even with a cast bullet load to push out the case wall, than the corn meal method.

My test for a good chamber is to drop the case back in and see if it will spin with a pick. I don't keep guns that can't the test.

I still think it was a re-ground reamer - those old guys never threw anything away. I think the rifle was meant to be loaded for, thus they never worried it was a little short on case length. Back in the 70's there was darn little in premium factory ammo and almost certainly reloads were way more accurate.

Depends on the dies but I'd bet you could load for that rifle with the dies you have now.
forgemonkey Posted - 02/13/2018 : 07:53:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by sandwarrior

Forge,

That would sure make it sound like they wanted it built off a standard 6mm case then. Like you I'm confused a bit as to why it is so short. But, if it's workable...work it Probably be a lot of fun in any case.



And fire forming makes the case even shorter, < 2.186"(for chambering) to 2.171" after the case is blown out,,,,,,,,,bigger case body = shorter OAL ,,,,,,,,,,,
sandwarrior Posted - 02/12/2018 : 11:00:40 PM
Forge,

That would sure make it sound like they wanted it built off a standard 6mm case then. Like you I'm confused a bit as to why it is so short. But, if it's workable...work it Probably be a lot of fun in any case.
forgemonkey Posted - 02/12/2018 : 09:12:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by sandwarrior

quote:
Originally posted by forgemonkey

quote:
Originally posted by sandwarrior

it almost sounds like he did an improved 6mm chamber off the 6.5x55 case. do you have the bottom of the case measurements?



Todd,,,,,not sure of your question. Please elaborate.



The length of the case is closer to a 6.5x55. The reason for using that case is you can get Lapua brass for it. With a standard 6mm you cannot.

So, the question is; is the lower portion of the chamber cast closer to .480" or, .473"?



Gotcha,,,,,,,,, it's .4715" ,,,,,,,,,discounting any Cerrosafe shrink ,,,,,
sandwarrior Posted - 02/12/2018 : 08:47:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by forgemonkey

quote:
Originally posted by sandwarrior

it almost sounds like he did an improved 6mm chamber off the 6.5x55 case. do you have the bottom of the case measurements?



Todd,,,,,not sure of your question. Please elaborate.



The length of the case is closer to a 6.5x55. The reason for using that case is you can get Lapua brass for it. With a standard 6mm you cannot.

So, the question is; is the lower portion of the chamber cast closer to .480" or, .473"?
forgemonkey Posted - 02/12/2018 : 08:13:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by sandwarrior

it almost sounds like he did an improved 6mm chamber off the 6.5x55 case. do you have the bottom of the case measurements?



Todd,,,,,not sure of your question. Please elaborate.
sandwarrior Posted - 02/12/2018 : 12:21:17 AM
it almost sounds like he did an improved 6mm chamber off the 6.5x55 case. do you have the bottom of the case measurements?
forgemonkey Posted - 02/10/2018 : 07:57:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by charliemeyer007

If it will respond well to neck sizing only I'd make up 200 new cases a little shorter than max length for it and enjoy shooting it.

I wouldn't try to fix the chamber length unless the barrel could be set back a thread (or 2) and you had the reamer in hand to make sure it could fix everything first. Even then things can still go wrong just enough to matter. Seems like a lot of work rather than just treating it as a wildcat.



Yeah, Charlie,,,,,,,,,,I just purchased 6mm Rem. dies on GB. When received I will trim some 6mm Rem. brass, load and fire form and the owner can buy 6mm Ackley Improved for me to load, 'if' he decides to keep the rifle,,,,,,,,,,
charliemeyer007 Posted - 02/10/2018 : 07:47:32 AM
If it will respond well to neck sizing only I'd make up 200 new cases a little shorter than max length for it and enjoy shooting it.

I wouldn't try to fix the chamber length unless the barrel could be set back a thread (or 2) and you had the reamer in hand to make sure it could fix everything first. Even then things can still go wrong just enough to matter. Seems like a lot of work rather than just treating it as a wildcat.
forgemonkey Posted - 02/08/2018 : 5:29:17 PM
UPDATE #5 ,,,,,,,,,

The below shows the chamber cast of the barrel marked 6mm IMP. (Ackley Improved ????)

The one 'measurement' that is somewhat radical is the case length,,,2.233" - 2.186"(trimmed to allow chambering)  equals .047" shorter case length.

I'm going to trim 6mm Rem. brass to 2.186" and set the bullet into the lands for a crush fit and fire form some cases to the chamber and then load for the Ackley Improved.

Your expertise and comments welcome,,,,,,,,


Hawk Carse Posted - 01/30/2018 : 2:02:01 PM
Could be a .240 Paige Souper Pooper. (Yes, that is how he spelled it.)

The Paige Pooper was a 6mm x .308 predating the .243, the Souper Pooper was based on the .257 but with steeper shoulder than .244.
charliemeyer007 Posted - 01/30/2018 : 11:06:18 AM
I understand. I hate to see a good firearm go to waste. I have in the past fixed a lot of gramps or great gramps guns for way less than what it should have cost for people that valued the family treasure.

My first oddball was a nice mannlicher stocked Mauser in 8mm-06. I never has proper dies for it. Later a 300 Gibbs, again no proper dies. Both rifles shot as good as I could hold them.
hillbille Posted - 01/30/2018 : 09:34:17 AM
quote:
Originally posted by forgemonkey

quote:
Originally posted by charliemeyer007

I still think by case length it was cut with a re-ground reamer, or it could be a custom design. Hopefully everything is square and concentric and you can just neck size.

Be interesting in seeing how good it shoots.



The problem; the owner, friend, is reluctant to spend the money on finding the answers but my curiosity won't let it go,,,,,,,,




you could become the new owner...
forgemonkey Posted - 01/30/2018 : 08:07:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by charliemeyer007

I still think by case length it was cut with a re-ground reamer, or it could be a custom design. Hopefully everything is square and concentric and you can just neck size.

Be interesting in seeing how good it shoots.



The problem; the owner, friend, is reluctant to spend the money on finding the answers but my curiosity won't let it go,,,,,,,,
charliemeyer007 Posted - 01/30/2018 : 07:48:20 AM
I still think by case length it was cut with a re-ground reamer, or it could be a custom design. Hopefully everything is square and concentric and you can just neck size.

Be interesting in seeing how good it shoots.
forgemonkey Posted - 01/30/2018 : 07:33:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by NeoBlackdog

Found a pic!
http://www.municion.org/24/244RemMashburn.htm
It's in metric, so will need a bit of converting.



Ah ha,,,,,,,,,the mystery deepens,,,,,,
Thanks, Steve ,,,,,,,,,
NeoBlackdog Posted - 01/30/2018 : 06:58:14 AM
Found a pic!
http://www.municion.org/24/244RemMashburn.htm
It's in metric, so will need a bit of converting.
forgemonkey Posted - 01/29/2018 : 11:39:03 PM


^^^^^^^^^Steve, thank you,,,,,,,,,,,,more comparison 'fodder' ,,,,,,^^^^^^^^

I will do a chamber cast,,,,,,,that might reveal the answer to this puzzle.

NeoBlackdog Posted - 01/29/2018 : 10:47:40 PM
quote:
Originally posted by forgemonkey

quote:
Originally posted by nononsense


Normally the 40 degree shoulder has been synonymous with the Ackley Improved versions of cartridges.

In this instance, I believe that you are looking at the .244 Mashburn Improved with a 30 degree shoulder. I could be wrong, of course...

Best.





Would you have the 'spec' drawings for the Masburn, I'm having no luck finding them on the 'net' ,,,,,,,,

Please educate me re your conclusion toward the Mashburn Imoroved,,,,,


I took the google dog for a walk on the web but couldn't find a drawing anywhere. I did find these measurements for the .244 Mashburn on another forum. I have no clue as to whether they're accurate or not.
"case length-2.24,
shoulder dia -.434
length to shoulder-1.735 ,
neck length.370 ,
shoulder angle 32.94/side,
neck dia-.259."
forgemonkey Posted - 01/29/2018 : 10:17:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by nononsense


Normally the 40 degree shoulder has been synonymous with the Ackley Improved versions of cartridges.

In this instance, I believe that you are looking at the .244 Mashburn Improved with a 30 degree shoulder. I could be wrong, of course...

Best.





Would you have the 'spec' drawings for the Masburn, I'm having no luck finding them on the 'net' ,,,,,,,,

Please educate me re your conclusion toward the Mashburn Improved,,,,,
nononsense Posted - 01/29/2018 : 9:04:49 PM
Normally the 40 degree shoulder has been synonymous with the Ackley Improved versions of cartridges.

In this instance, I believe that you are looking at the .244 Mashburn Improved with a 30 degree shoulder. I could be wrong, of course...

Best.

ADDED:

Here is a photograph of the Mashburn cartridge:



I'm fighting the flu/cold right now while still trying to unpack, so the possibility of finding specific files is small. I'll keep it on a list for reference in the near future though.

Best.


forgemonkey Posted - 01/29/2018 : 9:01:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by charliemeyer007

I don't have my books here either. I thought PO's normal was 40 but I know that there were others in the book as version 1, version 2...




Charlie,,,,,,here's C&P from the net,,,,,,,

Case-Forming the 6mm Rem Ackley
In the past I've used Winchester 6mm Rem brass. I have found Winchester 6mm Rem brass to be more consistent than the Remington-headstamp brass. I have a .274" no-turn neck, so with Winchester brass I could just load and shoot--the case forms fine with no special tweaking. Recently, however, I've switched to Norma 7x57 brass. This takes more work to form, but I think I get more consistent brass in the end--and it lasts a bit longer. Making the brass is a three-stage process. First I run the cases through a 6.5-284 die to just touch the neck and bring the neck diameter down. Next I run the brass through a 6mm Rem Ackley Improved die. But with the Norma 7x57 brass, that leaves the necks a little thick for my .274" chamber. So then I'll neck-turn, taking about .003" off the neck-diameter, ending up at about .271". I'm real happy with the Norma brass so far. The primer pockets seem to hold longer than the Winchester and the accuracy may be a bit better. Once Ackleyized, with the 40-degree shoulder, the cases are very stable. I never have to trim them to length--the cases just don't stretch. I'll get 10-15 loads over the life of the case, during which I may have to bump the shoulders two or three times. Normally I can shoot one set of cases all summer."
charliemeyer007 Posted - 01/29/2018 : 8:56:21 PM
I don't have my books here either. I thought PO's normal was 40 but I know that there were others in the book as version 1, version 2...
forgemonkey Posted - 01/29/2018 : 8:30:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by charliemeyer007

Looks improved to me, sharper shoulder, less body taper.

https://4drentals.com/product/244-remington-ackley-2/



Charlie,,,,don't have my manuals with me but the illustration shows 30° shoulder,,,,,,,,,IIRC shouldn't it be 40° ???
charliemeyer007 Posted - 01/29/2018 : 8:24:51 PM
Looks improved to me, sharper shoulder, less body taper.

https://4drentals.com/product/244-remington-ackley-2/
forgemonkey Posted - 01/29/2018 : 7:08:14 PM
UPDATE # 4 ,,,,,

Fire form 6mm Rem. to 6mm Rem. AI,,,,,,Original 6mm Rem. case on left,,,,,

Comments re the measurements welcome.

PITA to do fire forming without 'dies' ,,,,,,,

Next step will be to determine the 'jump' to the lands/grooves,,,,,,

forgemonkey Posted - 01/28/2018 : 08:17:44 AM


^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
nononsense Posted - 01/28/2018 : 07:06:23 AM


And don't forget...



forgemonkey Posted - 01/27/2018 : 2:27:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk Carse

Beat me to it.
I was fixing to post that a Brave Ballistician would insert a fireform load in trimmed brass and apply a modest force to the trigger.



You forgot the part 'bout a long string and hiding behind a 'big' tree ,,,,,,,,,,
Hawk Carse Posted - 01/27/2018 : 2:14:29 PM
Beat me to it.
I was fixing to post that a Brave Ballistician would insert a fireform load in trimmed brass and apply a modest force to the trigger.
forgemonkey Posted - 01/27/2018 : 11:44:15 AM
UPDATE #2 & 3

Still waiting on Cerrosafe,,,,,,but the below shows the difference between factory ammo(pulled bullet/powder) and what will chamber after trimming,,,

Will try to 'fire form' the case using the COW cornmeal method and compare to chamber cast if needed,,,,




Ready for 'fire forming' ,,,,,,,,,starting powder charge = 6gr. W-231 ,,,,,,

forgemonkey Posted - 01/25/2018 : 9:15:03 PM
UPDATE #1,,,,,,,

While waiting on an order for Cerrosafe I did the following;


Pulled the bullet and powder out of a 6mm Rem. and dipped the case in Dykem Blue.
Each of the below (#2-4) trim lengths showed 'no' marks on the case/shoulder while chambering. However, the very end of the case did show brass color, so I experimented with the below.


1. The case measured,,,,,,,,2.223"
2. 1st trimming = ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2.219",,,,no bolt closure
3. 2nd trimming = ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2.211",,,,no bolt closure
4. 3rd trimming = ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2.202",,,,no bolt closure
5. 4th trimming = ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2.186",,,, ******bolt closes ******my patience was waning ,,,,,,,This equals .037" less than book max. length.

I will trim back another case to 2.202" and trim in .001" increments to find the maximum case length for chambering.

YOUR THOUGHTS ,,,,,,,,,,


MIKE WISKEY Posted - 01/23/2018 : 11:15:58 AM
",he doesn't reload so he might get rid of the gun.'............gee, buddy sorry you bought sutch a 'turkey'...I'll give you $50 for it
forgemonkey Posted - 01/21/2018 : 3:18:22 PM


Thanks, Gentlemen,,,,,,,,

I'll see what the owner wants to do,,,,,,he doesn't reload so he might get rid of the gun.
navc130 Posted - 01/21/2018 : 1:07:11 PM
Try smoking or magic marker on a factory cartridge to see where it is hitting. Then you can ascertain the problem and corrective action. Added: After trimming you could fire form a case to see what you have.
A chamber cast will not identify the problem that you discovered. A very intelligent procedure.
Added: You don't need the candle wax to hold the cornmeal in, stuffed paper will do. However, if you are transporting them for any distance, it is a good idea, makes a good seal.
Added: Fire form: 10 - 15 gr. Red Dot, fill case with Crème-O-Wheat.
12 - 15 gr. Unique, fill case with Cornmeal.
Your graphics are really good.
nononsense Posted - 01/21/2018 : 08:16:04 AM
forgemonkey,

It's the usual practice to chamber an Ackley .004" short in order to get a crush fit when fire-forming. Using the standard .244 Remington dimensions this would mean a base to neck dimension of 1.8780". You'll notice that their reloading manual, the Sierra drawing shows 1.8720", a full .010" shorter than the parent case. Many think that .004" short is not enough and go for more when cutting a new chamber.

Wildcats do not have established, sanctioned SAAMI dimensions so reamer makers, gunsmiths and many kitchen table amateurs have improvised their own set of dimensions. This may be the situation you're encountering.

The other potential which I have seen before is that the cartridge is not captured by the extractor against the bolt face. The cartridge is simply being pushed into the chamber by the front of the extractor, making the headspace incorrect. When feeding from the magazine, the cartridge rim should slip under the extractor claw and sit against the bolt face.

I would cast the chamber to get the best rendition of the chamber size and shape. As unlikely as it may be, Harry may have created another 'Improved' 6mm.

Harry has been out of business for quite a few years now. The business was purchased by another group and moved to its current location. It's doubtful that they will have all of Harry's records to comb through, though.

Best.


charliemeyer007 Posted - 01/20/2018 : 10:09:23 PM
Mexican Small Ring Mauser? 6mm or 244 Rem, so check your twist rate. Chamber cast for sure is the way to tell, lots of improved variations out there. Could just be a really tight chamber - make sure the barrel and action are clean.

added worth asking them
http://mcgowenbarrel.com/contact/

SM small/special mauser? 7/72 July 1972 WAG 4400 steel #2 contour

https://www.GunBroker.com/item/739334476

added Interesting. Sounds like a worn reamer reground for use to me, likely the rifle had a complete set of dies just for it made at the same time. Still holding out for the chamber cast - likely the best information will come from that.
jkbt1 Posted - 01/20/2018 : 9:22:47 PM
Sounds like a chamber cast is in order here. That is the only way to know for sure what you have.

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