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 410 Pistol-H&R
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BigBarn
Junior Member

USA
276 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2004 :  7:16:33 PM  Show Profile
Hi guys,
Has anyone seen a 410 pistol, made by H&R I think it is a single shot, but I'm not sure. A friend of mine told me about it, and is bringing it for me too look at tomorrow, and I was hoping to get an idea fo what something like that is worth, before he shows up in the morning.

Thanks for your input!

BigBarn

"Respect the land, and it will respect you"

mark christian
Administrator

Panama
18528 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2004 :  7:38:40 PM  Show Profile
That would be an H&R Handy-Gun and unless it was registered with the BATF before the end of 1968 please tell your friend NOT to bring it over to your home because it could be "worth" ten years in prison! If the Handy-Gun was registered then it would bring $500 to $600 in nice condition. Unregistered makes it worthless.

Mark T. Christian

Edited by - mark christian on 05/14/2004 7:39:22 PM
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mrmike08075
Advanced Member

USA
2891 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2004 :  7:49:27 PM  Show Profile
...

Edited by - mrmike08075 on 05/15/2004 10:35:30 AM
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mark christian
Administrator

Panama
18528 Posts

Posted - 05/14/2004 :  8:15:01 PM  Show Profile
Mike, dealers can only deal in REGISTERED NFA items and can only accept those same items from a lawful source (the registered owner or another dealer/manufacturer/importer). If a dealer gets caught with an unregistered machinegun or any other NFA firearms his butt is going to be in jail faster than some guy without an FFL because he should have known better! Any item which was supposed to have been registered prior to the amnesty cut-off at the end of 1968 and was not properly registered can not be registered today by anyone. All such unregistered NFA firearms are contraband and must be destroyed.

Mark T. Christian
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hilrbyrd
Starting Member

18 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2004 :  10:13:13 AM  Show Profile
I inheirited a H&R handy gun from my father, who inheirited it from his brother. I have found the registration form, filled out by my Uncle dated 1968. Do I need to have the gun registered under my name or leave it as is? And do I need to have the registration card on my person while transporting the gun or say while using it as a snake gun on camping/fishing trips.

Thanks

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mark christian
Administrator

Panama
18528 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2004 :  10:43:13 AM  Show Profile
hilrbyrd, you need to have the firearm transefered over to you. This is done by using an ATF Form 5 and is TAX FREE for a lawful heir. Technically speaking you should not be in possession of this firearm right now so I suggest you get started right away. Once this is done (and the form is self explanitory) just keep a copy of the approved form with you and store the original in a safe place.

Mark T. Christian

Edited by - mark christian on 05/15/2004 10:45:24 AM
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trsmith5
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2004 :  10:56:56 AM  Show Profile
If it has a rifled barrel and does not have a shoulder stock then it is exempt
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BigBarn
Junior Member

USA
276 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2004 :  7:39:05 PM  Show Profile
trsmith5, can you explain that a little bit further? I did not quite understand what you said about the shoulder stock, nor the rifled barrel.
My friend brought this Handy Gun over to my house yesterday, for me to evaluate for sprucing it up a bit, but if it is an illegal firearm, I want no part of it!
Please let me know what is up with this particular gun. It is really a "cute" little gun, and would be great for snakes while camping.

Thanks guys for your input, your all great!

BigBarn

"Respect the land, and it will respect you"
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mark christian
Administrator

Panama
18528 Posts

Posted - 05/15/2004 :  8:05:15 PM  Show Profile
Not all Handy-Guns were smooth bore, there were some made which had rifled bores (.22 or .32-20). Since these rifled bore Handy-Guns had 12-1/4" barrels they are considered pistols unless they are fitted with the optional and rather rare shoulder stock, in that case they become short barreled rifles and also need to have been registered with the BATFE. After the National Firearms Act went into effect in 1934 H&R produced a few .410 Handy-Guns with 18" barrels which would also be exempted from the NFA. Since your friend example is one of the "cute little guns" it needs to have been registered by the end of 1968 or it is contraband today. Very few people felt like paying $200 to register a firearm which did not cost even one-tenth that amount when first produced, so there are far more unregistered Handy-Guns sitting in attics than there are in the NFA Registry in DC.

Mark T. Christian
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
10824 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2004 :  12:34:19 AM  Show Profile
Hello Mark et al,

The registration cut-off date was not 1968... it was 1960. 1968 was the latest GCA, but it had nothing to do with the amnesty period for registering Marbles Game Getters, H&R Handy Guns, Ithaca Auto Burglers, Stevens No. 35, etc. which occurred in 1959/1960.

Bert H.

Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!
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mark christian
Administrator

Panama
18528 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2004 :  01:38:53 AM  Show Profile
Bert, I was under the impression that 1960 was the date which the IRS ruling went into effect changing the classification of these firearms from short barreled shotguns to any other weapons and then allowed for registration with the ATTU as such, rather than as short barreled shotguns. With the expected increase in the number of AOWs the transfer tax was raised at that same time from the previous $1 to $5. As far as I am aware the 1968 amnesty allowed for the final registration of all types of National Firearms Act weapons and examining IRS document #5651 dated 9-66 I see that the Marbel Game Getter is specifically listed as a firearm which is eligible for continued registration.

I pulled out my notes on the NFA and see that when the law went into force on 24 July, 1934 under Section 5b persons possessing NFA firearms had 60 days to register these firearms on what was then known as a Form 1 (basically the same as we have today) although tax free with no photos, finger prints, of CLEO sign off needed. Although the registration period closed on 24 September, 1934 registrations continued for many more years and were allowed if the person registering the firearm provided a seperate declaration as to why the firearm was not originally registered-- something like inhertance would do the trick. Congress repealed section 5b on 01 September, 1952 but voluntary registrations were still allowed...to the tune of the full $200 tax! You will sometines see IRS notations such as NON WILLFUL VIOLATION--REGISRATION ALLOWED hand written on approved Form 1s from this time period.

After 1952 we began to see the arrival of the so called DEWATS on the market. Previously you could still register anything for free, although a transfer was either $200 or $1 for any other weapons (the change to that amount taking place in 1943-- it was originally $200 as well). Now it was going to cost you $200 just to put the firearm in your own name. I continue to see that the 1968 amnesty Form 4467 allows for the registration of any and all types of National Firearms Act weapons with immunity from prosecution and prohibiting the ATTU from realeasing any information as to a firearms registration status to anyone. I honestly don't think that Handy-Guns and Game Getters were excluded from this amnesty.

Mark T. Christian

Edited by - mark christian on 05/16/2004 02:17:13 AM
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
10824 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2004 :  03:09:31 AM  Show Profile
Hello Mark et al,

It was quite some time ago that I read about the 1960 date, and I believe now that my memory was faulty. I just spent the better part of the last hour trying to find where I came up with that date, and everything I find now supports the 1968 date. Please accept my appology for causing any confusion.

Bert H.

Real Men use a SINGLE-SHOT!
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01DUSE
Junior Member

Canada
118 Posts

Posted - 05/16/2004 :  10:20:43 AM  Show Profile
The Mrbles Company also made a break action single shot pistol in a .22 over .410 configuration. I believe the barrels were 16" in length. There was also a ratcheting mechanism that folded out of the pistol grip to which a wire butt stock wa screwed on to. To open the action you pulled back on the trigger gaurd. Only ever seen one once.
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