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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
 Posted - 01/16/2005 : 10:09:41 AM
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What would be a more accurate, long distance shooter? I was looking at the Armalite AR-30, and wow, what a sweet gun. Its available in those 3 calibers. My plan was to get a State Arms Shorty 50 BMG by the end of the year, just to get a long distance big accurate gun before the liberals took em away, and now this AR-30 is making me squirm a bit..
I'm thinking the 308 will have more available in terms of match grade factory loads at lower prices.. how much does factory 338 ammo go for? I would eventually reload the cartridge, but just curious.
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
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wizard78
Advanced Member
USA
3096 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 10:34:31 AM
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When you want a better long range rifle. It's not the best, but affordable. The 338 is SWEET!
"Sometimes you need to reach out a lot further. That’s where the TRG 42 comes in. Chambered for the potent .300 Win. Mag. and the even more powerful .338 Lapua Mag., this is the rifle to reach for when ranges stretch a quarter-mile and more. Like the TRG 22, the stock is adjustable to your specifications, and a detachable magazine makes reloads fast and sure. When you bring the TRG 42, you’re ready for anything. "
"The best way to change someone's mind is with a rock" |
Edited by - wizard78 on 01/16/2005 10:40:11 AM |
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roboman
Advanced Member
5079 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 10:54:15 AM
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Go for 338 Lapua. You better reload if you get it though.
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"Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters.
I want you to have nothing. If I'm a bad guy, I'm always gonna have a gun.
Safety locks? You will pull the trigger with a lock on, and I'll pull the trigger. We'll see who wins."
-- Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, mafia hit man and informant, in Vanity Fair, August 1999.
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bpost
Moderator
Bhutan
15157 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 10:54:31 AM
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From what I have read the .338 LAPUA is a LONG range anti-personel round. its not much different from a .338 Win Mag. But the use of "magnum" rounds for the military is a political no-no. (I don't get this one, dropping a bomb on you is OK, shooting you with a magnum is bad.)The .338 LAPUA has impressive wind bucking and the bullets have High ballistic coefficents, it is an efficent flyer a long way out there.
However, since it takes a very skilled shooter to get any where close to the target at 1,200 meters it seems a waste to have such capibality. It takes thousands of rounds and shooting every day to hit something that far out.
Stick with the .308, its cheaper and if whatever "bad thing" is out past 500 meters call in an airstrike or arty. If that is not an option, call time out and go home and have a beer.  |
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Tailgunner1954
Advanced Member
6374 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 12:07:56 PM
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The critical thing for longrange accuracy is PRACTICE. The 308 has the advantage of low recoil, commonly available and inexpensive ammo, down side is that the downrange "whomp" is fairly low.
The Lapua (or 338RUM, almost identacal balistics) is great for down range "whomp" but ammo is hard to find and expensive and they both kick fairly hard, so your practice will suffer.
The WM falls somewhere in the middle.
Remember, it's not the cartridge, it's the nut behind the trigger.
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Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head. |
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JustC
Moderator
10347 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 11:44:28 PM
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tailgunner hit the x-ring again The 308 is a sweet shooter,..no doubt about it,..but "whomp" value suffers at 500yds and beyond ON GAME. The 300win is a sweet shooter and very capable of harvesting deer at 800-1000yds. NOW,...the 338lapua is a real demon!!! But,..if you are recoil sensitive, STAY AWAY A VERY EFFECTIVE break makes a huge difference as does a good HEAVY rifle. In My Long Range experience,..practice is 90% of the game. If you get to where you anticipate the recoil, you can't shoot it well no matter what rifle or caliber you have I am also of the belief that although the high end factory rifles shoot very accurately,..a custom built rifle for about the same $$ shoots far better,..especially as the distance gets longer.
The 50BMG is a toy and a bragging right (the reason I have forgone that option thus far). They have too much leftover power to trust them to not go far beyond where your target is as well as the rediculous ammo prices unless you handload. The 338Lapua and 338RUM are superb long range calibers,..but they require a bit of experience to handle them. Either of them with a 250-300gr pill are easily a 1500yd caliber with no sweat. But then again,.I have seen a deer do the "death circle" at 1117yds with a 300wthby and a 190gr Berger.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics? |
Edited by - JustC on 01/16/2005 11:45:22 PM |
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FrancF
Moderator
USA
21358 Posts |
Posted - 01/16/2005 : 11:48:23 PM
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Well can't add to that .338 however look at the
.408 Cheyenne
408 Cheyenne Tactical® (CheyTac®) Cartridge. This 2000-meter cartridge delivers a 420gr projectile supersonically with high kinetic energy, accurately to a target from a novel a platform called Intervention.
The .408 CheyTac® cartridge is a true intermediate between the 7.62 NATO and the .50 Browning cartridges. The .408 CheyTac® approaches several of the ballistic characteristic of the .50 Browning cartridge and in some cases, exceeds them. It has the advantage in being 33% lighter than the .50 Browning cartridge.
To THEIS’ specifications, cartridge cases are made by a small German firm that makes match quality cases. Some of their customers include: Blasser GmbH; Hartmann & Weiss GmbH; Holland & Holland Ltd; Krieghoff GmbH; Norma Precision AB; Westley Richards & Co W. R. Ammunition (German Special Forces — sniper cartridges).
Projectiles are custom made by Lost River High Energy Technologies (Arco, ID). PRODAS 2000-designed solid nickel copper alloy projectiles are made by a Swiss-type CNC lathes. They are finally sized through pressure dies to bring the O.D. variation to less than 1/50th millionth. Projected ballistic coefficient at the muzzle is 0.906 and at 2000 yards is 0.665 (elapsed time = 3.26 sec)
A second solid projectile will be made with a driving band. Sierra is now designing a lead core match projectile.
This one, and the TRG-42 is on a BIG wish list.
NRA Life Endowment Member |
Edited by - FrancF on 01/16/2005 11:59:25 PM |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 12:31:45 AM
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how much does the trg-42 go for? they better than the ar-30, and do they come standard with a brake? (optional on the armalite)
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 12:52:31 AM
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nevermind, found out theyre about $2700..
eh, maybe some other day
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
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The Dunedan
Member
659 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 01:14:59 AM
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.308 is the cheapest, easiest to find, easiest to shoot, and easiest to reload for.
.300WM has LOTS of reloading dope, and it quite popular as a "Level 4" cartridge with the FBI and Sec. Service. Longer range than .308.
.338 Lapua is extremely popular in Europe as a Heavy Rifle cartridge, used in the same capacities as we use .50BMG. It's a real shreiker, and effective out to over 2000 yards. However, it's also very expensive, hard to reload for, and HARD kicking.
Stand up and fight, or lie down and die; for it is better to burn than to ever fade away. |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 01:30:54 AM
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ive never shot a heavy-recoiling gun before, I dont think it would bother me.. sure, might hurt for a few seconds, but its all worth it for accuracy.. and I've learned now to anticipate recoil, slow pull everytime, the shot is always a surprise, results in the best accuracy.
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
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Tailgunner1954
Advanced Member
6374 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 03:13:10 AM
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The pain lasts for more than a few seconds (can be days), think about having someone hit you in the shoulder with a baseball bat each time you pull the trigger. Or, to put it another way, 12ga 3" slugs fired off a bench kick less.
Ya, a good brake will make a major difference to the recoil, and you may even get used to the blast of hot air hitting you in the face, but even with plugs and muffs your hearing will never be the same.
See if you can find someone that owns a RUM, and ask if they'll let you run a box (or 2) thru it before you spend the coin (try before you buy).
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Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head. |
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The Dunedan
Member
659 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 03:30:44 AM
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^^^
LISTEN TO THIS MAN!!!
The .338 Lapua is a helluva round, but it is most certainly not for the faint-of-heart or shallow-of-pocket. It's expensive, difficult to find, and a Cast Iron B!^ch to shoot. A good muzzle-brake will take a lot off the recoil, but will make the muzzle-blast and noise absolutely otherworldly; Canadians using this thing in Afghanistan reported that the dust-plume it threw was sometimes fifteen feet high, and could be seen from a mile away!
Stand up and fight, or lie down and die; for it is better to burn than to ever fade away. |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 08:30:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by The Dunedan
^^^
LISTEN TO THIS MAN!!!
The .338 Lapua is a helluva round, but it is most certainly not for the faint-of-heart or shallow-of-pocket. It's expensive, difficult to find, and a Cast Iron B!^ch to shoot. A good muzzle-brake will take a lot off the recoil, but will make the muzzle-blast and noise absolutely otherworldly; Canadians using this thing in Afghanistan reported that the dust-plume it threw was sometimes fifteen feet high, and could be seen from a mile away!
Stand up and fight, or lie down and die; for it is better to burn than to ever fade away.
Sounds like fun to me! 
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
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270 Deer Slayer
Senior Member
USA
1380 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 08:55:03 AM
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About a week ago, me, ruger27man and my friend went to the range. My friend bought his 12 gauge, he just wanted to shoot up all of his old slugs that had been in his house for about 15 yrs. We where shooting some 3 inch buckshot and some differint kinds of 3 inch slugs. He had an old box of brenekee's that kicked like mules. After about 5 of those you arm would be hurting. I dont know how it would compare to what you guys are talking about though. Probably less recoil.
"A blood trail is life" (Ted Nugent)
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Tailgunner1954
Advanced Member
6374 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 09:47:33 AM
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The 338Lapua kicks worse than a 12ga 3" slug. Remember too that shotgun slugs are normaly fired from the standing position, while long range rifle is normaly fired from the prone or bench positions.
1-2 shots you won't feel to bad, but after 30-40 rounds prone (1 short days practice) you probably won't be real eager to go out and do it again the next day, and once you develop a flinch it will effect your shooting of everything from 22LR on up.
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Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head. |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 09:57:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tailgunner1954
The 338Lapua kicks worse than a 12ga 3" slug. Remember too that shotgun slugs are normaly fired from the standing position, while long range rifle is normaly fired from the prone or bench positions.
1-2 shots you won't feel to bad, but after 30-40 rounds prone (1 short days practice) you probably won't be real eager to go out and do it again the next day, and once you develop a flinch it will effect your shooting of everything from 22LR on up.
3" slug didnt bother me much at all, but then again I only shot it once from the bench.
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
Edited by - ruger270man on 01/17/2005 09:57:23 AM |
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gunnut505
Advanced Member
4418 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 09:57:01 AM
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Y'all are talkin' horses an' mules here!
The 308 is widely available, for sure, but NOBODY expects it to go 1200 meters and actually HIT anything, much less do any damage.
The WM is a mild recoiling mid-to-long range cartridge that will do plenty of damage when it arrives 2 seconds later, and is much easier to find components for than the exotic Lapua or the RUM.
The AR 30 is a nice looking Semiauto, the TRG 22/42 are bolts, as is the AW line of precision rifles; I don't think some gunsmith could build up a more accurate rifle without doubling the going price, unless he works for free.
"Qui non est hodie cras minus aptus erit" --OVID |
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Boomerang
Advanced Member
3369 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 10:01:47 AM
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quote:
12ga 3" slugs fired off a bench kick less.
OH, the humanity! That is painful.
Boomer
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed"
… and the antithesis to this philosophy was uttered by Bill Clinton ”I smoked it, but I didn't inhale.”
NRA Life Member
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ECC
Moderator
29978 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 10:13:00 AM
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Out of the 3 listed, the .300 Win Mag and variations of it are the most common long range gun around. The .338 Lapua blows them all out of the water. It blows the .338 Win Mag away too. The closest comparable round would be the .338 Remington Ultra Mag. If you are going to reload and don't mind spending a little bit of money, the .338 Lapua is sweet. A LOT of long range guys will steer you towards the .300 Mag route though. You cannot go wrong with either caliber. There is a website (I'll see if I can find it) that shows graphs and charts of how each of these calibers perform. It includes the .50 BMG too.
Eric
All American Arms Company
www.galleryofguns.com
VIP Code: AAAC
Veteran Owned and Operated |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 10:16:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ECC
Out of the 3 listed, the .300 Win Mag and variations of it are the most common long range gun around. The .338 Lapua blows them all out of the water. It blows the .338 Win Mag away too. The closest comparable round would be the .338 Remington Ultra Mag. If you are going to reload and don't mind spending a little bit of money, the .338 Lapua is sweet. A LOT of long range guys will steer you towards the .300 Mag route though. You cannot go wrong with either caliber. There is a website (I'll see if I can find it) that shows graphs and charts of how each of these calibers perform. It includes the .50 BMG too.
thanks, thatd be really helpful |
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ECC
Moderator
29978 Posts |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 11:05:56 AM
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after seeing this graph, it looks like its worth it to go to at least the 300winmag, with quite a jump in trajectory from the 308, and smaller gain going to the 338.
Thanks Eric.
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JustC
Moderator
10347 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 1:05:42 PM
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Donor action trued and squared with sako style extractor $600
Super match Grade barrel in Stainless steel and hand lapped w/break installed, threaded, crowned, chambered, and contoured $700
Match grade trigger $225
Mcmillan tactical stock, finished, inletted, bedded etc w/adj cheek peice and adjustable recoil pad $700
Custom dies cut with the chamber reamer and micrometer tops $200
Tactical rings and bases $250
TOTAL $2675 compared to the $2700 factory rig. If this isn't close to anyone elses quotes,..their gunsmith is obvioulsy ripping them off as these are the going rates for most BENCHREST and TACTICAL gunsmiths with reputations anywhere in this country. The factory will charge more for less,..because they have to pay for their advertising and promotions etc. these are generous prices which my gunsmith would charge,..so the total may even be a little less. Also,..beware of gunsmiths who mark-up the materials,..good gunsmiths make their money on labor and performance, not in retail parts. call Bob Hart, he is right up there by you and he will be glad to give you price quotes (although he is a bit on the high side).
I'd put a custom 338Lapua against even the armalite anyday of the week, there is much more attention to detail when done by a benchrest savy gunsmith. Now,..a 50bmg style "tank" break will reduce the 338lapua to a 243 recoil level,...but everyone around you will have some new colorful terms to describe you and your rifle.
One must also keep in mind that each of the successive calibers on that chart are using sucessively heavier projectiles which are going to carry better energy, thus the range capability. If equivalent BC's were used,..then the heavier pills will have the range capability advantage. You take a 10twist 34" barrel in 338lapua and shove a 300gr SMK with a BC in the high .7's low.8's, that pill is going to slice through the environment like butter where as a 168gr pill from a 308 at a MUCH lower velocity and with a much lower BC (.5's) that pill is PHYSICALY incapable of carrying energy over distance at anywhere near the level of the 338lapua.
The caveat to the lapua is brass is very expensive. The 338-300RUM would provide far more brass availability at a much cheaper rate ($55/100cases) and might also edge it out in performance. Either way,..you are going to be handloading, so these things are considerations that must be quantified. The 408chey-tac has yet to catch on in large numbers because of the availability of 408 match projectiles. The Lost River pills look great on paper,..but 90% of the guys who have tried them (in any caliber) have not re-purchased them due to less than stellar performance. maybe once sierra makes a SMK in 408, the caliber will take off more in the LR circles.
And,..I beleive the 3" slug tailgunner was referring to was a SABOTED slug in a RIFLED barrel. recoil from this is far greater than that of a 3" slug in a smooth bore barrel. 2-3 shots from a non gas operated shotgun with a fully rifled barrel pushing a 3" saboted slug is enough for anyone to put up with. One must experience the joy of turning a few of these loose before they can have a full understanding of recoil  large magnums have sharp recoil and the shoulder bone will no doubt be sore for several days afterwards when shooting from a bench,...a BIG EFFECTIVE break is the only way around it, but the concussion from such will lend the shooter a nice thumping in the head for the remainder of the day. I have a thumper after using my 300RUM with a break and firing 40-50rnds at a match, and a good headache pill is usually the best remedy.
I would spend time burning out several barrels on a 300WIN before going up to the 338 lapua or 338RUM,..that's just my opinion, your mileage may vary. Once you go too far in recoil,..many range sessions must be undertaken to reverse the ill effects that are created by the subconcious mind prior to lighting the primer. Even the 300win in a 10lb rifle is stout when using 180-210gr pills and practicing for more than a few rounds.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics? |
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beantownshootah
Advanced Member
USA
9752 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 1:28:40 PM
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I know 50 BMG and 338 Lapua ammo is expensive, but can somebody post the approximate costs of this ammo in comparison to say, the .338 Win Mag?
Conceptually, I like to think of those cartridges more as small artillery pieces than as rifles!
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JustC
Moderator
10347 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 2:42:41 PM
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I figured out my cost per round to load 50BMG to be around $2.50-$3.00. the lapua with it's pricey brass will likely top the $1.00 mark.
Figure my 300RUM burning 90gr's of powder will run at about .26 for the charge.
figure the $55/100 brass with a life of 6 firings is around .09 per round (with it's 1/6 value of .55c per case)
federal gold medal primers at $22/1000 equates to .022 per round
216gr clinch river custom bullets at $30/100 equates to .30 per round
therefore the 300RUM with custom bullets will run $.672 per match grade round.
Now the 338Lapua which can and will bring $2.00 per case with a life of 6 firings yields a .33per round cost. The cost per round of powder charges in the 110gr range will yield a cost of .314 and figure the same bullet and primer cost and you arrive at $.966 per match round, close to 50% increase in the cost of the RUM chamberings. Once the prep work is done to the Rem brass,..the tolerances are similar but at a far reduced cost and with much greater brass availability.
multiply that by 1000rnds competitive life expectancy and you have saved $294,..roughly only slightly under the price of your next barrel blank.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics? |
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mpolans
Senior Member
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 3:51:02 PM
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Out of curiosity, what are you going to use it for? Do you really plan on hunting deer at 800-1000 yards?
If you're only punching paper, it sounds like you're asking for a lot of unnecessary expense and abuse with a couple of the cartridges you're looking at.
There's a pretty big step between the .308 and .300 win mag, but you don't even mention .30-06, which does virtually everything the .300 win mag does, but would be a lot more common, and thus cheaper. |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 7:34:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mpolans
Out of curiosity, what are you going to use it for? Do you really plan on hunting deer at 800-1000 yards?
If you're only punching paper, it sounds like you're asking for a lot of unnecessary expense and abuse with a couple of the cartridges you're looking at.
There's a pretty big step between the .308 and .300 win mag, but you don't even mention .30-06, which does virtually everything the .300 win mag does, but would be a lot more common, and thus cheaper.
punching paper of course.. Im more into target shooting these days than hunting.. still love deer hunting though
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
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mpolans
Senior Member
1888 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 8:27:54 PM
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| Then why not just go for a .30-06? |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 9:14:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mpolans
Then why not just go for a .30-06?
eh, maybe something about it being too common.. and is the 30-06 as accurate as the others?
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
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roboman
Advanced Member
5079 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 9:15:59 PM
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If you want something uncommon just pick a regular cartridge that's not used much. Get something chambered in 218 Bee.
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"Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters.
I want you to have nothing. If I'm a bad guy, I'm always gonna have a gun.
Safety locks? You will pull the trigger with a lock on, and I'll pull the trigger. We'll see who wins."
-- Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, mafia hit man and informant, in Vanity Fair, August 1999.
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plains scout
Advanced Member
USA
4274 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 11:09:16 PM
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Your 270 will be a good shooter.
Here are my thoughts.
If you want to stop Elk at long very long distances 338 or 338 Lapua.
If you want to stop small armored vehicles at long distances then the .50 cal.
If you want to shoot a "sniper" rifle 308. They are tested proved and still in use. The recoil is mild, the ammo is easily and cheaply reloaded, and it is still perhaps the most favored by military and police for long distance shooting.
Remember you have to see it to hit it. How much money do you want to spend on good very good optics
You will find it said many places and by many people that the 308 is perhaps the most inherently accurate cartridge.
the '06 either 30 or 25 is a good shooter. But that 30 cal bullet is a little less influenced by wind. The 30-06 is a dang good hunting round and some people have fine tuned them to a tack driver.
But for punching paper and killing deer at long range WITH THE CORRECT BULLET and WITH CONFIDENCE IN THE SHOT the 308 is the round for this cowboy.
Shoot straight. |
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the loveable rat...
Member
969 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 11:15:37 PM
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quote:
If you want something uncommon just pick a regular cartridge that's not used much
or maybe a paintball gun might work... |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 11:45:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by roboman
If you want something uncommon just pick a regular cartridge that's not used much. Get something chambered in 218 Bee.
The whole point was having something that has some DISTANCE.. and what is with you and the 218 bee, I swear you're obsessed with that thing..
you ship my package yet? 
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 11:48:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by plains scout
Your 270 will be a good shooter.
Here are my thoughts.
If you want to stop Elk at long very long distances 338 or 338 Lapua.
If you want to stop small armored vehicles at long distances then the .50 cal.
If you want to shoot a "sniper" rifle 308. They are tested proved and still in use. The recoil is mild, the ammo is easily and cheaply reloaded, and it is still perhaps the most favored by military and police for long distance shooting.
Remember you have to see it to hit it. How much money do you want to spend on good very good optics
You will find it said many places and by many people that the 308 is perhaps the most inherently accurate cartridge.
the '06 either 30 or 25 is a good shooter. But that 30 cal bullet is a little less influenced by wind. The 30-06 is a dang good hunting round and some people have fine tuned them to a tack driver.
But for punching paper and killing deer at long range WITH THE CORRECT BULLET and WITH CONFIDENCE IN THE SHOT the 308 is the round for this cowboy.
Shoot straight.
I dont need another gun for deer, this would be strictly for target shooting. I was just curious, I first have to find a darn range around here thats more than a measly 100 yards. I'm thinking of maybe getting a savage 10fp-le2 choate stock, with a super sniper 16x scope. The whole rig, even with a bipod, would be under a grand. That would tide me over for a few years until I can get something nice and big. |
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roboman
Advanced Member
5079 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 11:58:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ruger270man
quote:
Originally posted by roboman
If you want something uncommon just pick a regular cartridge that's not used much. Get something chambered in 218 Bee.
The whole point was having something that has some DISTANCE.. and what is with you and the 218 bee, I swear you're obsessed with that thing..
you ship my package yet?
Package has not left since the funds have yet to clear into my account. Once they do the package will ship...
I like the 218 Bee because it gets next to no recognition or respect. Never even shot one but intend to eventually.
Why not get something in 223? Get a nice Bushmaster Varminter. You get a sweet long-range rifle as well as an evil black rifle.
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"Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters.
I want you to have nothing. If I'm a bad guy, I'm always gonna have a gun.
Safety locks? You will pull the trigger with a lock on, and I'll pull the trigger. We'll see who wins."
-- Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, mafia hit man and informant, in Vanity Fair, August 1999.
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ContacFront
Senior Member
1057 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:00:57 AM
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Ha, come to the dark side of the Savage 10FP.
But on a serious note, get a 308, its fun, its cheap and will let you learn the skill before you go out and buy one of the bigger calibers. Soon as I can outshoot the 308 I got the next project will be a 300 Win. |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:05:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by roboman
Why not get something in 223? Get a nice Bushmaster Varminter. You get a sweet long-range rifle as well as an evil black rifle.
already have a .223 handi rifle that is pretty accurate so far (1/2" @ 100), but I'm working on her..
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
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roboman
Advanced Member
5079 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:12:43 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ruger270man
quote:
Originally posted by roboman
Why not get something in 223? Get a nice Bushmaster Varminter. You get a sweet long-range rifle as well as an evil black rifle.
already have a .223 handi rifle that is pretty accurate so far (1/2" @ 100), but I'm working on her..
Then ya got all you need! Just reload some nice hot .223 loads and let 'er rip!
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"Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters.
I want you to have nothing. If I'm a bad guy, I'm always gonna have a gun.
Safety locks? You will pull the trigger with a lock on, and I'll pull the trigger. We'll see who wins."
-- Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, mafia hit man and informant, in Vanity Fair, August 1999.
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ContacFront
Senior Member
1057 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:17:31 AM
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| 308 is limping at 800 yards, 223 is going to be taking its last breath at about 600 yards. |
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JustC
Moderator
10347 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:23:26 AM
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Dude,..the 308win will do all you need for the next 5 years. Putting the pill in the boiler room is the key. I meet these guys every year who have what I call "the magnum disease". They think anything past 100yds needs to be hit with a magnum or it won't go down. I have several hunting pards who suffer from this and just won't listen. Imagine the excuses they come up with when I smoke one at 400yds with a 168gr pill from a 21" barreled 308.
"you are shooting special handloads"
"you are a benchrest shooter"
"you have a custom rifle"
"blah blah blah"
The 308win is probably the best round you can learn with for Long Range shooting. It is inherently accurate, mild in recoil, cheap to load for (unless you use some of the superb factory match offerings) and very effective. Your 270 with a good load (I am sure pabooger will be glad to help) with somw IMR7828 will lauch your pills so damn fast and flat that 400yds is only a slight holdover. Don't fall for all that "magnum" BS!!!! Until the ground underneath passes 500yds,..the magnum is a WASTE of powder (unless you are talking heavy game such as elk). I flat out smoked deer all summer across the beanfields with a 308 shooting factory match ammo (not even made for meat hunting) and never lost a single animal.
You may have noticed I take a lot of fire for shooting at animals past 400yds on this board,..but I have done it effectively with great repeatability, so I make no excuses. Your current rifle (ruger model77 in 270win) is far from outclassed at the the 500yd mark. If your rig suffers on paper, have it fixed by a gunsmth!!! Mine (only 1 state away) LOVES the ruger M77 action and can make it sing with that factory barrel Trigger time is the key to being consistent. You CAN NOT be afraid to burn that barrel out while practicing barrels are like the tires on your car,..when they are bald, you throw them away and buy new ones.
Take a look at my 308win rifle and while it is a custom rig,..the 21" barrel makes maybe 2700fps with a 168gr pill,..but the deer take a dirt nap like they were hit by a freight train. You have a caliber that will put you well above your "boys" who don't spend time at the range. Shoot a lot,..and then only then, move up in caliber. The 270 is on the heels of the 7mm rem mag which is probably one of my all time favorite chamberings. My 7mm has accouted for MANY DRT shots up to 500yds!!!
here is the wimpy little 308 that all the naysayers can't do what I have seen her do time and time again
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics? |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:26:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by roboman
Then ya got all you need! Just buy some Remington core-lokt and go duck hunting..
cmon robo you're killing me
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
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roboman
Advanced Member
5079 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:29:39 AM
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Hey, you want to spend 1K on a gun you don't have reloading tools for much less even a range to shoot it at past 100 yards, be my guest.
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"Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters.
I want you to have nothing. If I'm a bad guy, I'm always gonna have a gun.
Safety locks? You will pull the trigger with a lock on, and I'll pull the trigger. We'll see who wins."
-- Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, mafia hit man and informant, in Vanity Fair, August 1999.
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:31:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by roboman
Hey, you want to spend 1K on a gun you don't have reloading tools for much less even a range to shoot it at past 100 yards, be my guest.
I'll have reloading tools in about two days.. and I havent really looked for a long distance range yet. Why you gotta shatter my dreams?
I'd love to get a headstart on reloading by reading up in the Speer manual.. hmm... wonder where it is..
j/k.. I know paypal sucks.. |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 12:36:26 AM
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JustC, thanks, that was a great reply. I realized I need to concentrate more on shooting and practicing with what I currently have, and excel at it, before I move up. I'm planning on getting a trigger job and my barrel floated on my 270 pretty soon, and my 223 is shooting pretty good, gonna work with that some more, and I'm going to start reloading within a month, just need some money to get a bench and some components.
Thanks |
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Gibbs505
Advanced Member
Canada
3253 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 01:00:39 AM
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The 338 Lapua is what the British use in their long distance sniper rifles!
That should do it for you, but the practise is going to cost you!!
If I can't spell, so what!
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. |
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JustC
Moderator
10347 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 01:16:21 AM
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ruger270man,..a bench is nothing more than something you can mount a press to. A sheet of 3/4" plywood and several 2x4's is all you need. Don't go wasting time and money on anything fancy. I used an old high school teachers desk and some bolts!!! A yard sale will find you a bench for like $20!!!
As far as a trigger job and floating
Mike Ruggiero
Broad Creek Rifle works
Laurel Delaware
302-875-5446
tell Mike I sent ya
He has articles written about his rifles,..he is a master of the rifle world and he will turn your gun around quick. He loves the ruger77 actions because they mimick the mauser which is his favorite action ever made. He has 700rems but his love is the mauser (ruger 77 is a direct copy). He builds my competition guns,..so you can expect top notch work. Bedding will be about $70 and a trigger job will be less than $30. Mike is as good as they come.
Do yourself a favor,..load ammo to the best your rifle is capable,..and shoot it!!!. The thing I see with most guys is that they feel intimidated by the distance. Just run your balistic tables through the on-line charts and you will be within a few "clicks" at 500yds to be dead nutz zero. Don't let the naysayers slow you down,..the only way to be consistent is to burn powder Barrels are sacrificial parts,..when they burn out,..trash em and get another one. Don't fall for all that "unethical" BS,..once you have the paper shaking in it's boots's, you are ready for deer. When you are on your way to Ocean City give me a call,..the summer time around here and the bean fields will give you a chance to stop by here and try your hand at 300+ yd shots and I bet you'll be damn happy with some pratice under your belt. I'll put you on 300-1000yd shots The distance only means some "clicks",..and it's on!! Once you see that white belly flip while the rilfe is still under recoil at 350yds,..you will never be the same BTW,..300yds is the CLOSE shot,..but with your rifle sighted at 5" high at 100yds, that is a "hold on hair" shot
Long range shooting is alife long endeavor,..so be preparred. You have expressed an interest in smacking them at LR,..so I will help in any way I can It is an obsession, and an expensive one,..but it pays off when you see the impact in the glass DO NOT LET ANYONE TALK YOU OUT OF IT!!!! It is by far the best feeling you will ever have with a rifle. Let me know how I can help,..I always like to help to start a new shooter in the LR game Before you know it,..I'll be seeing you at the matches A nice buck falling at 100yds is great,..but a doe at 600yds will remain with you for every bit as long and the pride in that well placed shot will remain
PS,..Mike has about 50 barrel blanks sitting in the shop right now just waiting for a new owner.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics? |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 01:28:00 AM
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JustC,
tell me more about "bedding" and how its different from floating..
Thanks!!!
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"I will no longer debate a liberal because I feel they are beneath contempt. Just communicating with one contaminates a person." - whiteclouder |
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JustC
Moderator
10347 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 01:59:49 AM
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bedding the action will free-float a barrel because the bedding material will hold the action higher in the stock. This as a default will free float a barrel. BUT,..if you barrel needs a pressure point,..your accuracy will suffer. Take a business card,..and fold it over until you have to press hard on the barrel to push it away from the stock fore-end to push the folded card into the barrel channel. If the gun groups better with the folded card shoved HARD under the barrel/stock,..then the barrel wants a pressure point. This is usually a sign of an unstraight barrel. BUT,..this can improve it's performance by reducing the variance in it's vibrational frequency. You really have to see Mike take your factory barrel and spin it in a lathe with a gueage on it to see how crooked a factory barrel can be. Many rifles have barrels that are out and out JUNK on them. You have probably seen 2 guns of the exact same manufacture shoot TOTALY different. This is due to one barrel being straighter than the other Mike keeps take-off barrels that are relatively straight for customers who only want a factory re-barrel and they are never disappointed.
Bedding pays off if your barrel is straight. You have to remember that production lines are set up for profit,..and anything goes. Many barrels are made from steel blanks that are bent and straightened. Once heat is applied from firing,.the steel will try to return to it's original shape,..therfore a barrel from a bent blank will bend after firing,..and groups will open up. Match grade barrels are made from perfectly straight blanks, and therefore when heated, will maintain rigidity and accuracy.
If you use a factory barrel,..you have to have a good one,..or heat will throw it off in POI. If you barrel groups better with the business card,..it needs a bedding point (usually in the 15lb range according to Mike). But,..if it was a good straight barrel from the factory,..it will like to be free floated. I have both. AS a matter of fact,..I hunted this year with a rem700 6.5x55 classic that I shoved the top of a pack of Marlboro reds under the barrel. The damn thing just wants some upward pressure to bring her under 1moa,..so I was happy to leave it there with 120gr NBT;s and 44.5gr of IMR4350. I will take it to Mike and have a bedding point added,..but I had no time before hunting season so the marlboro top was good enough I don't carry my LR rigs into the woods for 100yd max shots, so these project rifles are what I carry.
why chase the game when the bullet can get em from here?....
Got Balistics? |
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ruger270man
Advanced Member
USA
9364 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 02:07:22 AM
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| so I should get it free-floated, then compare groups with and without the pressure point? |
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interstatepawnllc
Advanced Member
USA
9086 Posts |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 04:36:36 AM
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If ya cannot hit it with a .308 ya aint gonna hit it with "whatever".
Who do ya think ya are Sgt York?
 Don't "F" with kitty!! 
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Topic |
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300 win mag vs. 308 vs. 338 lapua for distance??
