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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  02:55:01 AM  Show Profile
With Savage, peep sights and bad eyes I get
4 in group at 50 yds. Rob with his scoped gun
gets them nearly in one hole. Ed

Ed Hubel
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beararms2
Junior Member

132 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2006 :  04:18:33 AM  Show Profile
Got a few more questions! Is there much difference groupwise with the different projectiles, and is it accurate enough to hunt animals in the 75-100 yd range? Where did you get your barrel for the Savage?
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2006 :  12:30:04 AM  Show Profile
Find the load you like and get decent groups with
it is good to 200 yds at our velocities. Say a
600 gr hardened slug at 26-2900. Savage 210 comes with
scope rail. We got our barrels from Pac-Nor, mine a
31 in long and 1 x 20 twist barrel blank.
I turned it myself extra heavy for experimenting.
They will also profile them for you.For our type of
loads in Savage 1.43 inch minimum at breech, 1.2
min at the muzzle.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2006 :  01:42:01 AM  Show Profile
I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and it looks good.
Have got loads up to 105 gr with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2006 :  03:40:30 AM  Show Profile
Tested bras and plastic 3 inch cases,
got a whole bunch of loads figured out.
Then I just NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
work up if pressures allow.Ed.

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2006 :  12:38:58 AM  Show Profile
We tested turned brass cases and plastic cases
that have regular primers.We have to use
fast burning shotgun powder to start slower
powder loads with small primers.
We tested RE-7 and RE-15. Re-15 is better
with less case expansion and wear.
Results of RE-15 testing in plastic cases.
600 gr hardened Dixie slug and 10gr
of Blue dot starter powder in both lengths.
In Nef, 3 inch case is about 2.6 crimped,
and 120 gr RE-15 max load. In 1887, 2.75 inch
cases are about 2.35 crimped, 110 gr RE-15
max load. In 2.75 case thats all it will
hold,with card wad, in longer make up space with wads.The reason I'm checking plastic is so many shotgun reloading guys want more power for big game, and they are set up to
load plastic. With starter powder- a caution.
You must put starter in keeping case level,and the powder put in on top, must be put in slow
so as not to push it away from primer.
Greg Sappington clued me in on another powder that may do the job without starter powder
and be slow enough to get velocities up
without to much pressure. It's IMR SR-4759.
Will have some in couple days.I made contact
to get some of these loads pressure tested,
to check my pressure calculations..Ed.

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2006 :  11:34:09 PM  Show Profile
The 4759 loads are the best for 2.75 & 3" cases
600gr at over 1800 fps. Ignition perfect.
Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that
extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed


Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2006 :  6:12:56 PM  Show Profile
I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
slug load, expands the base of the case
more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
more speed, in the same kind of
Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
for sure what we have wrought..Ed.

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  02:01:15 AM  Show Profile
Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
than our 4759 loads.Ed

Ed Hubel
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Cubslover
Advanced Member

USA
16432 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  02:28:57 AM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by hubel458

Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
than our 4759 loads.Ed




Time to start sellin em. Good work Hubel, very impressive.

"Half of the lies they tell about me aren't true"

Click here to put a bid on my Yugo monster.

"Some people are alive, only because it's illegal to kill them"
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buddyb
Advanced Member

2963 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2006 :  7:44:34 PM  Show Profile
Mr.Hubel you are now on my hero list.
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knightrider
Junior Member

344 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2006 :  1:38:16 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by hubel458

We got 1887 12ga levergun here to test. Has 2 & 3/4
inch chamber and we will test with our cases cut back and
with Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic.Neat gun.Ed






Umm I would not do that if I were you. The 1887 was not ment for high powered rounds, even if this is a copy and better metal. But if you want to blow away $500, around about price for the 1887, have at it but next time give me the money instead.



Long live the bolt action and Metal Slug!

If I can't shoot it I don't want it.

1911-A1: Because a Glock will go off in your pocket.

knightrider
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2006 :  11:38:41 PM  Show Profile
The replica 87 was tested at White Labs at 43,000 psi,
with fast shotgun powder.Our slower powder 4759 loads at
much lower pressures won't harm it in plastic.
Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
to put in my max loads, but go down a
little and use in modern guns that
are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2006 :  12:50:51 AM  Show Profile
Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear
extractor.A 788 Rem
may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
For repeater action, Open mag
well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2006 :  11:31:43 AM  Show Profile
I have also found that the rear locking lug
idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
long enough for our long case with little
work. Work long case as singleshot.
Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
goose guns built same way.The
left locking lug woud get a bite out on
its end if front was bored out to .900,
tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
cutout to support case opposite extractor.
The original lugs will guide for feeding.
Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2006 :  11:42:24 AM  Show Profile
We are making a big falling block
action by scaling up a nice looking one.
Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill, and have to get more.The
action model also will be narrowed up when
finished, and contoured to look as good
as the Wickcliffe.Ed.



Ed Hubel
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1KYDSTR
Senior Member

USA
2407 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2006 :  10:24:24 PM  Show Profile
Dear God Hubel...superimpressive! I do, however, have some trepidation as regards the 1887, even with your case cut back by half?!?! Is that thing original? I would approach with caution as that is not the strongest action JMB ever devised! Either way, I really like what you are dooing there...tres impressive!

"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
"When I was 14 I used to marvel at how ignorant my old man was...by the time I was 21 I was truelly amazed at how much the old bugger had learned in the intervening 7 years!" Samuel Clemens
"History is written by winners"(Patton)
"You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than you do with a kind word alone!"(Al Capone)
"There is nothing lower than the human race...except the French" (Samuel Clemens)
“Live! Live the wonderful life that is in you. Be afraid of nothing. There is such a little time…” Richard Halliburton
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1KYDSTR
Senior Member

USA
2407 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2006 :  11:58:09 PM  Show Profile
Sorry about that...I replied at the end of the FIRST page and missed all the technical datum you presented. I am really impressed, for whatever that is worth. Do you guys work on Marlin 1895 GG's? I would like to beef mine up and keep it chambered in 45/70 so that I might use some of the bolt action level loads I have seen for Mausers. I know of the conversions in 450 Alaskan and 510 Kodiak, but would just like a "Super" 45-70 lever gun.

"When I cease learning...I'm dead"(Me)
"When I was 14 I used to marvel at how ignorant my old man was...by the time I was 21 I was truelly amazed at how much the old bugger had learned in the intervening 7 years!" Samuel Clemens
"History is written by winners"(Patton)
"You get a lot farther with a kind word and a gun than you do with a kind word alone!"(Al Capone)
"There is nothing lower than the human race...except the French" (Samuel Clemens)
“Live! Live the wonderful life that is in you. Be afraid of nothing. There is such a little time…” Richard Halliburton
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 12/18/2006 :  11:45:09 AM  Show Profile
Haven't worked on those guns. Maybe you
could do a longer version like 45-90.
Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber, just primer, to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. But the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 01/01/2007 :  01:37:37 AM  Show Profile
Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case so it does 3 & 3.5" also. A nice
long barrel we'd have 2050 plus.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 01/09/2007 :  9:33:49 PM  Show Profile
Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.





Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2007 :  1:47:18 PM  Show Profile
Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects
that I sectioned down the middle..I
ground out the top to allow case
to set higher, representing a
the taller action that we will
have due to larger diameter cases.
That lever in the picture is the
lever we will use with longer stroke.
Also in the action layout is the
breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
This lever looks to be easier to fit
and shape to bigger action and stock,
with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed



Ed Hubel
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firebawlp
Starting Member

25 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2007 :  4:03:35 PM  Show Profile
hubel458, just curious to what kind of thumbhole stock is on that H&R. I've been looking for something styled that way. Thanks.
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2007 :  12:17:24 AM  Show Profile
That stock is nothing you can buy for NEF
It is an early State Arms 50cal stock that I
cut apart and reworked and drilled a
stock bolt hole to fit NEF.You can buy
butt stock blanks on ebay and carve
one like that. Only put the thumbhole alittle
lower and the bottom of stock more horizontal
to the pistol grip part of thumbhole
for more strength.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2007 :  11:11:27 PM  Show Profile
Here is pic of the first finished model
breech block for scaleup model. You
hammer and trigger in the back of
the block. Ed


Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2007 :  10:06:40 PM  Show Profile
Another shotgun/rifle experiment is 28ga FH.
Rocky MTN is making me some
3.25 in 28ga cases. They are good to 38k psi.
That will get 500-550 gr out at 2500 in
bolt action.A regular 28ga gun may get to
2000, depending on how heavy barrel is.Should
average 17-1800. Just lengthen chamber.
Get a NEF Ultra cut off leaving breech section
for monoblock and have 28ga rifled barrel
made and screwed or soldered in monoblock.
And being able to hold 38k to match brass,
That would get 2500 fps loads.Ed



Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2007 :  6:10:54 PM  Show Profile
Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the
guard.Ed



Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 03/10/2007 :  3:21:46 PM  Show Profile
Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the top rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need.
Can even add a long tang for tang sights.Ed



Ed Hubel
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IAMAHUSKER
Senior Member

USA
1997 Posts

Posted - 03/20/2007 :  7:35:06 PM  Show Profile
Man, there are some really talented and knowledgeable people on this board. What the heck am I doing here?????? Very impressive!

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." --Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791. ME 8:276
"Invoking time as a substitute for knowledge can be hazardous." Fred Reed
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2007 :  12:13:37 AM  Show Profile
Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.


Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2007 :  6:34:51 PM  Show Profile
Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2007 :  8:46:56 PM  Show Profile
Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition like the 4759.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2007 :  01:58:56 AM  Show Profile
Found another slower than shotgun powder that ignites
perfectly in 12ga plastic with small primers. It is
IMR 7383 surplus at $3 a lb. Starting loads 100 gr.
Full load with 600gr slug ia 140gr, gives 1800 plus
in NEF with 24" barrel. Used different 3" cases.
tested 730g with 7383. Perfect ignition.Extracts easy.
130gr gives 1650 plus fps in 3" plastic.
tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what
a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2007 :  1:24:09 PM  Show Profile
tested 870gr hard slug with 7383 in 3"
plastic. Over 1500 fps in NEF short barrel.
I wish it had a longer 32" barrel..........
The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed

Ed Hubel
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jkophazy
Starting Member

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2007 :  2:09:12 PM  Show Profile
Ed,

Could you please straighten me out on the NEF. If I understand correctly, you are still using the factory barrel only rechambered to accept the 12GA FH (50BMG) brass at 3.75". You have adapted the hammer spring to strick hard enough to fire the 50BMG primers. You installed the thumbhole stock with additional weight, and that's it.

Did I miss anything?

Are there any down sides to haveing RMC make the 3.75" 12ga FH brass?
Would it be possible for them to set them up for large rifle primers?

I wish David White of the formally known "precision rifle works" was still out there. He was doing a lot of H&R/NEF barrel stubbing. I hope he pops up again. He rechambered some H&R barrels for me and put a nice break on a 500S&W handi rifle barrel. They had their own barrel catch blocks lined out and were going to start offering total custom H&R handi rifles. I don't really know what stopped them.

Looking forward to getting my hands on the brass you'll send.

Hope your doing well, thanks again!

Respectfully,

Jason Kophazy
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3rgunman
Starting Member

1 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2007 :  6:22:01 PM  Show Profile
Jason,
David White is still around and doing some pretty neat things on encore/contender platform in addition to the H&R/NEF rifles. His website is www.dandtcustomgunworks.com and his prices are pretty good and work is top notch from what I hear.

Robert

quote:
Originally posted by jkophazy

Ed,

Could you please straighten me out on the NEF. If I understand correctly, you are still using the factory barrel only rechambered to accept the 12GA FH (50BMG) brass at 3.75". You have adapted the hammer spring to strick hard enough to fire the 50BMG primers. You installed the thumbhole stock with additional weight, and that's it.

Did I miss anything?

Are there any down sides to haveing RMC make the 3.75" 12ga FH brass?
Would it be possible for them to set them up for large rifle primers?

I wish David White of the formally known "precision rifle works" was still out there. He was doing a lot of H&R/NEF barrel stubbing. I hope he pops up again. He rechambered some H&R barrels for me and put a nice break on a 500S&W handi rifle barrel. They had their own barrel catch blocks lined out and were going to start offering total custom H&R handi rifles. I don't really know what stopped them.

Looking forward to getting my hands on the brass you'll send.

Hope your doing well, thanks again!

Respectfully,

Jason Kophazy

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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2007 :  10:51:19 PM  Show Profile
Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases, w/600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759.

Powders slower than shotgun type, that ignite
properly with small primers(shotgun-lg rifle);
we found 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder that also works
with real heavy slugs Ed

Ed Hubel
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jkophazy
Starting Member

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2007 :  10:39:35 AM  Show Profile
ED,
Where can you find the 7383?
The large rifle primers are used up to the 600NE. That's as far as my Handbook of cartridge conversions goes. Are large rifle primers rated for a higher pressure than the 209's?

Jason
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Tailgunner1954
Advanced Member

7656 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2007 :  11:31:37 AM  Show Profile
The 209 is a battary cup design, and normal shotgun shells only go up to around 15000LUP (lead units pressure).
Large rifle primers are usable up to 60000CUP (copper units pressure).

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some guys like a mag full of lead, I still prefer one round to the head.
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jkophazy
Starting Member

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 07/05/2007 :  1:06:09 PM  Show Profile
Thanks for the info. What you think ED?

Jason
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 07/11/2007 :  10:26:37 AM  Show Profile
Yes Bob is right about the use for what the primers
were designed for. In shotgun applications
and low pressure rifle applications, the
shotgun primers proved stronger than large rifle
in my tests and the pressure testing companies testing.
The shotgun battery cup might fail at real high pressures,
but its power to fire off shotgun loads is still good.
The early days 600NE cases and others of that size
made in UK,etc, they used a bigger Berdan primer for
more power than our Boxer Large rifle primers, because
as we found in our 12ga work, as you increase powder charge
diameter it takes more flame from a primer to ignite charges.
RMC makes their brass 12ga with shotgun primers, and it
works better than if they used lg rifle.Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 07/14/2007 :  3:28:35 PM  Show Profile
Finally able to make the
longer barrel improvement on
the 1887 12ga levergun.......
Rifled and heavy and 31"
long. After many months finally got
a barrel.Ed


Ed Hubel

Edited by - hubel458 on 07/14/2007 3:31:19 PM
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 07/22/2007 :  2:06:17 PM  Show Profile
With NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug
in drillpress. 82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps,
with 730gr, 78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.
Expansion on cases show little more pressure
as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.
Ignition perfect with small primers.
Ejects cases fine. Burns clean.
Got a GEHA bolt 12ga to put a heavier
rifled barrel on to test. Ed

Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 07/29/2007 :  6:16:00 PM  Show Profile
tested 870 gr in NEF with our long
brass case with big primer.I have NEF
with extra hammer spring for big primer.
Got 2000 fps and still able to extract case.
Would do little more, extractor needs
to be wider and set up positive.
Used 260gr of WC-860 and MagPro.
Could use RL-22, Rl-25, Retumbo, etc.
That's 7700 ft lbs.. I get 600 gr slug to
2300 plus in NEF, long case. so you can go
light or heavy.Ed

Ed Hubel
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jkophazy
Starting Member

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 07/30/2007 :  10:07:09 AM  Show Profile
Ed,

I had a chance to work on some of the loads. I've been using Remington High Brass hulls. I started with 65.5 grains of 4759 under a 730gr dixie slug with a BPI gas seal, a 1/4" felt, and a 1/2 fiber wad as the filler. The results were lack luster to say the least. 1400fps out of the H&R. I also noticed incomplete powder burn.
I subsequently increased the powder charge to 75.5gr of 4759 with the 730gr slug, one BPI gas seal, one each 1/4" and 1/2" fiber wads, which gave an improved 1615fps. the next load was 77.5gr of 4759 on the same wadding and slug weight, the outcome was 1700fps but, only one of five ejected and I had to use a rod to get the rest out. I think it may be an ejector problem as I am noticing a bulge in the brass at the ejector position. These loads are hitting the steel plates with more authority than my 975gr 50 alaskan loads! I knew there was somthing about larger diameter bullets! Please advise me if I have made any mistakes.

Respectfully,

Jason
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 07/31/2007 :  11:14:57 PM  Show Profile
I haven't tested 4759 with 720gr in NEF.
Just 600gr. Your 730 gr at 1615 using 75.5gr
of 4759 is very good load. 4300 ft lbs. And
using plastic cases that is great with
heavier slug. The 600gr is so much easier
to load for in plastic. Another 6"
barrel you'd have 1715 plus. For 730gr the 4227
would be better with little lower pressure.
I put a spacer under my ejector spring to
help out. I use the the bulge at the ejector
slot as an indicator of pressures also.
Mine extracts with some bulge showing and
cases are safe in NEF that way. Did you weight
the gun, and get a thick pad.Ed

Ed Hubel
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jkophazy
Starting Member

USA
16 Posts

Posted - 08/01/2007 :  06:39:09 AM  Show Profile
Ed,

Thanks for the information. As it is now, the gun is still in factory trim and weighs 9.5lbs. I didn't get any of the 600gr slugs from dixie and they told me they were shutting down component orders effective July 1, 2007. I'll go back and look at your 4227 info. A spacer under the ejector spring? How many times are you able to reload the same hulls? Due to the bulge, they are a pain to resize but, I've done it and reloaded the same 10 hulls about 3 times a piece. The hull ends are holding up well. My only question is case head expansion. What would you consider to much?

Jason
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 08/02/2007 :  01:31:34 AM  Show Profile
When we are getting loads that make that bulge
where ejector is, it's easier to reload another case.
I have resized them also and it is a big pain.
I did one 6 times till mouth went away
but it is too much hassle and work.
And working them that much, I don't like.
Once fired cases are 5-10 cents on internet.
Plus a lot are given to you. How I got mine.
When I measure 3" high brass REM cases, max pressures
expands base ahead of rim to about .810- 814",
where a mild skeet load would be about.806- 807".
I measure 3/8" ahead of rim They start out
at .801-803" from factory.You should try Dixie as I
am going to. I need a bunch of 600s also.
They are the best shaped, and best slug for
all around use.Ed

Ed Hubel

Edited by - hubel458 on 08/02/2007 01:33:43 AM
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2007 :  12:12:40 PM  Show Profile
Here is pic of 695 bolt action
Mossberg with dinky barrel and the heavy long
rifled barrel for it. It has a recoil plate
like Rem/Sav, and two rear bolt lugs..Ed



Ed Hubel
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hubel458
Junior Member

USA
402 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2007 :  12:02:17 PM  Show Profile
tested in NEF 3" cases, Alliant 2400 with
small primers, Fired ok at 75 deg but when
case cooled there was majority of misfires
and squib loads. Don't reccomend it.
Here is picture of Mauser 12ga bolt action
GEHA with a heavy barrel like one I will put
on it. Make a good slug gun.Ed



Ed Hubel
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