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 Argentina 1911 info Needed
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dcloco
Advanced Member

USA
2856 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2006 :  9:16:17 PM  Show Profile
Thanks up front!

Gentleman has a Argentina 1911 45 ACP for sale. Does not have a grip safety. Blued finish with wood grips.

I have not seen the pistol.

What do I need to look for in terms of:

Originality?
Rarity?
Condition?
Wear?

Items that would make this a no purchase for me?

Price is in the $250 range.

zipperzap
Advanced Member

31626 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2006 :  9:53:25 PM  Show Profile
Well - depends which one you are talking about - the Ballester Molina .45 ACP OR
the Colt (contract) Systema M1927 Argentine .45 ACP.

The M1927 Ejercito Argentino SIST Colt Cal 11.25 Mod. 1927 is EXACTLY the same
as an American (circa 1927) Colt - worth about $650, or so, in great shape.

The Ballester Molina is inferior - worth about $350-$400+ in great shape.

Condition and wear are always a consideration.

I have owned various Systemas - the 'Air Force crest' piece is considered more
valuable than the Army stamped piece.

I really like them - they used to be much cheaper BUT Colt fans have 'discovered'
them in the last few years and bought them up!



http://www.tropicalglen.com/
http://tiny.cc/gzz78

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
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perry shooter
Advanced Member

13847 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2006 :  10:17:40 PM  Show Profile
I agree with zipperzap as I too like the model 1927 better then the Ballester Molina .However last week there was a poster looking for a 1911 without a grip safety .for that purpose the Ballester Molina may be what this shooter wants. The trigger group is an entirely different design but the gun has the same general lines as a 1911 .
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rufe-snow
Advanced Member

15755 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2006 :  11:05:06 PM  Show Profile
If it's a Argentine made .45 without a grip safety, it's more then likely a Ballester Molina. I've owned a couple in the past. Generally excellent quality, nothing wrong with them at all. It's a home grown Argentine design, to the best of my knowledge only thing that will interchange with Colt 1911's is the magazine. If it's factory original, very good condition and functions well, $250 seems more then fair to me.


Click on this URL it's a history of the various Ballester Molina's, also has some pictures of what the ones in factory original condition should look like.


http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/ballester.htm

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dcloco
Advanced Member

USA
2856 Posts

Posted - 08/16/2006 :  11:12:12 PM  Show Profile
Thanks. I will post what it is and if I make the purchase.
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zipperzap
Advanced Member

31626 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2006 :  03:24:58 AM  Show Profile


That's true - the only part of the Ballester Molina that interchanges with the Ejercito Argentino SIST Colt Cal 11.25 Mod. 1927 is the magazine. Here's one of mine ... and no HB, it isn't Photoshopped.

Check out the online auctions and I think you'll find a Ballester Molina in pretty good shape will run you more than $250 ... I could be wrong but I don't think so.

I prefer the grip safety. They shots as well as any 1911 I have.



http://www.tropicalglen.com/
http://tiny.cc/gzz78

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
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dcloco
Advanced Member

USA
2856 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2006 :  4:11:10 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by zipperzap

Well - depends which one you are talking about - the Ballester Molina .45 ACP OR
the Colt (contract) Systema M1927 Argentine .45 ACP.

The M1927 Ejercito Argentino SIST Colt Cal 11.25 Mod. 1927 is EXACTLY the same
as an American (circa 1927) Colt - worth about $650, or so, in great shape.

The Ballester Molina is inferior - worth about $350-$400+ in great shape.

Condition and wear are always a consideration.

I have owned various Systemas - the 'Air Force crest' piece is considered more
valuable than the Army stamped piece.

I really like them - they used to be much cheaper BUT Colt fans have 'discovered'
them in the last few years and bought them up!





Zipper - any pictures available of the different crests?
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heavyiron
Senior Member

USA
1408 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2006 :  6:19:18 PM  Show Profile
Hi,

Ballester and Molina were two Spaniards who opened a business in Argentina in 1929. The name of this company was Hispano Argentina Fabrica de Automoviles Sociedad Anonima (HAFDASA), or Spanish-Argentine Automobile Factory, Incorporated. HAFDASA is the name that will be stamped on the slide of these pistols. They are also know as a Ballester Rigaud, named after Rorice Rigaud, one of the companies chief designers.

I would add that the Ballester Molina has the reputation as a very good semi-automatic pistol and in pure military configuration it be more accurate than a similarly configured Colt 1911. Additionally, the barrel is interchangeable with the Colt 1911 as is the magazine, since these were two of the design criteria for the Ballester Molina which was to replace the aging 1927 Colts and Systema Colts.

The 1927 Colt was a contract gun made by Colt for Argentine and is easily confused with the Systema Colt which is a 1911 Colt made under license by Argentine which is stamped with "DGFM-FMAP". Both of these pistols have grip safties and all parts are completely interchangeable with the 1911 Colt. I personally own a Systema Colt whose finish looks like a dog, but has been completely gutted and rebuilt into a carry/target pistol including handfitted slide and bushing, Bo-Mar sights, 4-lb trigger, light hammer spring, etc, etc.

The following is a list of differnces between the Ballester Molina pistol and the M1911A1:

a) The hammer strut on the Ballester Molina pistol is much shorter than that of the M1911A1.
b) The firing pin stop on the Ballester pistol is not recessed on the side as it is on the M1911A1.
c) The safety lock on the Ballester pistol is redesigned with a larger diameter pin, and it can be applied with the hammer cocked or fully down.
d) The mainspring housing on the Ballester pistol is an integeral part of the frame.
e) The Ballester pistol has a pivoting trigger with a single extension along the right side that cams the side mounted disconnector and engages the sear.
f) The magazine catch on the Ballester pistol is assembled differently.
g) The Ballester pistol has no slide stop disassembly notch.

Serial numbers are:

1 - 12,000 1938 - 1942
12,000 - 23,000 1942 - 1944
23,000 - 108,000 1944 - 1953

Blue Book value on these pistols is probably from $550.00 for a 100% condition gun to $250.00 for a 60% gun. Many of these pistols have seen hard use and were imported in large quantities in the late 1990's and are getting harder to find no that supplies have dwindled.

Personally, I don't think this would be a bad gun to own and I wish I could find a clean one to purchase.

Regards,

Heavyiron


"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix
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Bill DeShivs
Senior Member

USA
1095 Posts

Posted - 08/17/2006 :  7:24:38 PM  Show Profile
The Ballester safety is actually superior to the Colt-type. It blocks the hammer fall with a bar of steel. Colt-types sinply rely on blocking the sear. The Ballester is VERY similar to the Star pistols.
Bill

Bill DeShivs
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heavyiron
Senior Member

USA
1408 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2006 :  1:03:39 PM  Show Profile
Hi,

Here is a photo of a Ballester Molina since one hasn't been posted yet.



Regards,

Heavyiron


"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix
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heavyiron
Senior Member

USA
1408 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2006 :  1:04:12 PM  Show Profile
Hi,

Here is a photo of a Ballester Molina since one hasn't been posted yet.



Regards,

Heavyiron


"If I don't see you nomore on this world, I'll meet you on the next one, and don't be late!" - Jimi Hendrix
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