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daviduk
Starting Member

United Kingdom
37 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  07:01:52 AM  Show Profile
Have a question on H&R Bulldogs of the late 1800,s:
http://i27.tinypic.com/8vw65l.jpg
Harrington & Richardson made their little .32 Bulldogs in rimfire & centerfire - my question is what year did they stop making the rimfire versions. This is essential to ascertain if the gun is FFL or non-FFL. I,d also be grateful for the book/s titles/author/s you referenced from.

Thanks in advance......

David

Edited by - daviduk on 03/02/2008 12:06:36 PM

joel_black
Member

USA
681 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  07:14:30 AM  Show Profile
I suggest you go to Bill Goforth's website at: http://www.geocities.com/iverjohnsoncollector/har.htm
He has published books on the history of H&R and is the most knowledgeable person in the world on the subject.
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Spider7115
Moderator

USA
24515 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  07:49:51 AM  Show Profile
Just out of curiosity: Are you allowed to have cartridge handguns in the UK regardless of age? How does a US FFL apply?

-"SPIDER"

ALLAH KA-BAR!


GunBroker.com Moderator
The Largest Auction Gun Store Online including Pistols, Shotguns, and Rifles

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daviduk
Starting Member

United Kingdom
37 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  08:30:16 AM  Show Profile
Spider...

The law's a bit confusing but here goes:

Handguns/rifles made 1908 or earlier need no import licence & are legal so long as they are kept as a curio, ie not fired. They also have to be in 'obsolete calibre' as defined by the Home Office - they have a full list. An example is .320 revolver is legal, a .32 s&w is not or .44 Russian is legal .44 Magnum is not, any rimfire is legal apart from .22 etc etc.

Guns made before 1939 but after 1908 are ok too but an import licence is needed & they still have to be of 'obsolete calibre'.

Rifles & shotguns are ok at any age calibre but the user must have a SGC or FAC (shotgun Cert or firearm Cert) to import if in current calibres.

Modern handguns are no-longer legal in the UK, you're correct there but you can add a western-type muzzle loader shooting BP on your FAC so long as you're a member of a gun club.

Any antique handguns I import I add book references to their dates whenever possible thus negating the need for an import licence or paying more than the 5% tax on antiques (20% on non-antiques).

Any non-FFL firearm, that is older than 1898 can be exported from America without an export permit or other licence requirements.


Edited by - daviduk on 03/02/2008 08:35:55 AM
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Spider7115
Moderator

USA
24515 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  08:34:58 AM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by daviduk

Spider...

The law's a bit confusing but here goes:

Handguns/rifles made 1908 or earlier need no import licence & are legal so long as they are kept as a curio, ie not fired. They also have to be in 'obsolete calibre' as defined by the Home Office - they have a full list. An example is .320 revolver is legal, a .32 s&w is not or .44 Russian is legal .44 Magnum is not etc etc.

Guns made before 1939 but after 1908 are ok too but an import licence is needed & they still have to be of 'obsolete calibre'.

Rifles & shotguns are ok at any age calibre but the user must have a SGC or FAC (shotgun Cert or firearm Cert) to import if in current calibres.

Any antique handguns I import I add book references to their dates whenever possible thus negating the need for an import licence or paying more than the 5% tax on antiques (20% on non-antiques).

Any non-FFL firearm, that is older than 1898 can be exported from America without an export permit or other licence requirements.

Thank you for the clarification, David. We can only hope that our Supreme Court validates our right to bear arms so we're not subjected to the inane firearms laws enacted by the UK. I'm sure Bill Goforth can help you and he will likely see your posting in this forum.

-"SPIDER"

ALLAH KA-BAR!


GunBroker.com Moderator
The Largest Auction Gun Store Online including Pistols, Shotguns, and Rifles


Edited by - Spider7115 on 03/02/2008 09:30:32 AM
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daviduk
Starting Member

United Kingdom
37 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  08:43:21 AM  Show Profile
I agree Spider. What happened in the UK is a handgun ban was rushed in after a shooting & the shooting community in the UK let the government walk over them - they did not speak with one voice & lost their guns & rights very quickly. The UK as in the USA was built on the gun, for better or worse, gave us our Empire & won wars - guns & their owners are now seen as something you'd scrape off your shoes. Most of the population have lost contact with their past & it can happen anywhere so I'd advise shooters to speak loud & proud if you want to keep your rights!

Thanks for the link Joel - have emailed & awaiting a reply.

David

Edited by - daviduk on 03/02/2008 08:53:43 AM
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hrf
Member

815 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  09:53:38 AM  Show Profile
In a timeline Bill Goforth sent me, he states the Bulldog model in rimfire calibers was introduced 1887 and discontinued 1923.
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daviduk
Starting Member

United Kingdom
37 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  10:00:39 AM  Show Profile
Hmmmm....strange as all of the ones I,ve seen for sale are non-FFL.


Is that the .32 rf you refer to, not the .38 rf?

I wonder if there's a serial number chart which can be cross referenced with the gun serial.
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hrf
Member

815 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  10:39:50 AM  Show Profile
I don't think H&R ever made that model in .38 rimfire. And I believe both H&R and Iver Johnson used block serial numbers, which makes them useless for dating. Here is the complete list he sent (Iver Johnson's American Bulldog closely resembles and is often confused with H&R's models):

[from Bill Goforth, author of IJ book]

HARRINGTON & RICHARDSON ARMS CO.
TIME LINE FOR AMERICAN DOUBLE ACTION SERIES OF REVOLVERS
1880---MODEL 1880 DOUBLE ACTION 2 ˝ inch Round barrel (one frame size) 32 6-rds. & 38 5-rds.
(not considered a Bull Dog type revolver)
1883---FIRST MODEL FIRST VARIATION INTRODUCED- (2 ˝ “ROUND BARREL BLACK POWDER)
(32cf. 6-rds, 38cf. 5-rds, 44 Webley 5-rds, the 44 caliber frame is slightly larger )
1884---FIRST MODEL SECOND VARIATION LONGER OCTAGON BARRELS (4 & 6 INCHES)
1885---FIRST MODEL THIRD VARIATION ALL BARREL LENGTHS ARE OCTAGON
1887---BULLDOG MODEL INTRODUCED (RIMFIRE CALIBERS)
1887---SAFETY HAMMER MODEL INTRODUCED (SPURLESS HAMMER)
1905---SECOND MODEL INTRODUCED SMOKELESS POWDER
SECOND MODEL BULL DOG INTRODUCED SMOKELESS POWDER
SECOND MODEL SAFETY HAMMER INTRODUCED SMOKELESS POWDER
1915---VICTOR VARIANT INTRODUCED (three frame sizes in 22rf, 32cf & 38cf)
1920---44 CALIBER DISCONTINUED
1923---BULLDOG MODEL (Rimfire Calibers) DISCONTINUED
1931---NEW MODEL NUMBER ASSIGNED; NO.60 32 CALIBER & NO. 65 38 CALIBER
1940---STARTER REVOLVERS INTRODUCED NO.160 32 CALIBER & 180 22 CALIBER
NO.150 38 CALIBER GAS CARTRIDGE REVOLVER INTRODUCED
(these three revolvers were built on American Double Action frames).
1941---LAST LISTING FOR ENTIRE SERIES
(The Young America Double Action and The Vest Pocket Double Action
are smaller frame versions of the American Double Action. They
are chambered in 22 & 32 rimfire and 32 centerfire)


IVER JOHNSON’S ARMS & CYCLE WORKS
TIME LINE FOR PRE 1900 IVER JOHNSON SOLID FRAME DOUBLE ACTION REVOLVERS
1878-- AMERICAN EAGLE SERIES 2 ˝ inch round barrel (two frame sizes) 22rf-7rds. 32cf-5 rds.
BRAND NAMES: Old Hickory and Lion (not considered a bull dog type revolver)
1881-- AMERICAN BULL DOG FIRST MODEL (22rf, 32cf & rf, 38cf & rf & 44cf)(four frame sizes)
BRAND NAMES; Old Hickory, Lion, British Bulldog, Ajax Army, Navy Favorite and others
1883-- LOVELL SAFETY DOUBLE ACTION (a.k.a Model 1879) 38 cf caliber only (side swing cylinder)
not considered a bull dog type revolver
1884-- AMERICAN BULL DOG SECOND MODEL (22rf, 32cf & rf, 38cf & rf & 44cf)
BRAND NAMES; Old Hickory, Lion, British Bulldog, Ajax Army, Navy Favorite

1887-- BOSTON BULL DOG MODEL Light Weight Version (22rf, 32cf & 38 cf) (three frame sizes)
LOVELL SAFETY DOUBLE ACTION DISCONTINUED
1900-- MODEL 1900 American Bulldog Large frame 38 caliber only, production stopped on other models
(the large frame in 38 caliber was carried over as the Model 1900 large frame until 1903)

(all frame sizes of the American Bulldog were continued to be sold by retail stores for several years after 1900)

*Brand names listed above are not meant to be all inclusive but only those known at the present time

**MOST OF THE PRE1900 INFORMATION FURNISHED HERE IS BASED ON SECOND OR THIRD TIER RETAIL CATALOGS AND THEREFORE THE DATES MAY ACTUALLY BE PLUS OF MINUS ONE TO TWO YEARS.
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daviduk
Starting Member

United Kingdom
37 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  12:00:48 PM  Show Profile
Thank hrf, very informative & not totally what I wanted to hear!

I,m now wondering how these (.32 rimfire models) can be validated & sold as non-ffl when they were made up until 1923 &, as you point out, are hard to date due to serial block numbers?

As I have noticed most of these old rimmies are sold as antiques which can be shipped right your door.

If it helps this is the one I'd like identified - its a 5 shot .32 rimfire by H&R: http://i27.tinypic.com/8vw65l.jpg

Would this be a double action as your date range is for DA Bulldogs?

Edited by - daviduk on 03/02/2008 12:09:48 PM
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b.goforth
Member

966 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2008 :  1:23:32 PM  Show Profile
after studing the picture you posted this revolver appears to have a blued trigger guard. the blue trigger guards were not used until after 1897. if this one has only the markings of the model name (H&R BULL DOG) on the top strap the manufacture era is 1884 to 1896 (black powder only). if it has the company name and address on the left side of the barrel with the top strap markings the manufacture era would be 1897-1904 and was manufactured for black powder cartridges pressures only. if it has the company name, address and caliber on the left side of the barrel, with the top strap markings the manufacture era is 1905 to 1923 and was manufactured for smokeless powder cartridge pressures.

the information on the exact dates the 'H&R BULL DOG' model was discontinued is taken from H&R catalogs. after 1923 the 32 rimfire models were still avaliable but just listed as a caliber variation of the American Double Action and the Young America models.

one of the big differences in our laws and yours is in the u.s.a. caliber has nothing to do with antique status. antiques were manufactured before January 1, 1899 and modern manufactured after december 31,1898. some modern firearms are classified as curio & relic firearms, usually those made before wwII. being classified as a curio and relic does not exempt a firearm from all the federal firearms restriction as being classified as an antique does. a curio & relic classification is only useful to someone holding a curio & relic collector's license.

now if the person selling this revolver is listing it as an antique he could be right but he also could be wrong as the dividing line (On this model) between antique and modern is hazy and unclear. he would be best to sell it as Curio & Relic eligible. please remember the u.s. law establishing antique and modern firearms did not go into effect until 1932/33
bill
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