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MrGnA
Junior Member

188 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2009 :  4:02:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Bert.

In A LOT of the earlier 1894's you can see striations running across the receiver.

I always assumed it was from refinishing, sanding, steel wool, but now it is apparent it was something from the milling process.

Is that what it's from?
Bill
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Mike D.
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2009 :  5:09:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the update on my Model 64. I was unaware of the change to .30-30 WIN. from 30 W.C.F. being as late as it was. Too bad that Cody hasn't the records on the late guns, 'cause I'd like to know the exact assembly date of my gun. The fact that the receiver carries a 1948 serial number, yet the barrel has post-1950 markings sounds typical of Winchester's parts storage "issues".
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2009 :  5:36:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrGnA

Hey Bert.

In A LOT of the earlier 1894's you can see striations running across the receiver.

I always assumed it was from refinishing, sanding, steel wool, but now it is apparent it was something from the milling process.

Is that what it's from?
Bill



Hello Bill,

Not quite... it was the result of the forging process. The striations never run quite straight across the length of the receiver frame like they would if caused by a milling machine. Those striations are something I specifically look for on all of the older Winchester models, and are a positive indicator that the gun in questions has not been refinished.

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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2009 :  5:46:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mike D.

Thanks for the update on my Model 64. I was unaware of the change to .30-30 WIN. from 30 W.C.F. being as late as it was. Too bad that Cody hasn't the records on the late guns, 'cause I'd like to know the exact assembly date of my gun. The fact that the receiver carries a 1948 serial number, yet the barrel has post-1950 markings sounds typical of Winchester's parts storage "issues".



Hello Mike,

You are quite welcome.

One thing you might try, is to remove the forend stock and look for a 2-digit year date stamp on the bottom of the barrel. I too suspected exactly what you did... that the receiver frame sat in the parts bin for a few years before being assenbled into a complete rifle. It would be really nice if you find a "50" or "51" on the bottom of the barrel.

As a point of interest, Model 64 serial number 1695096 is marked "30 W.C.F." (and it is the highest serial number I have thus far with that marking), while serial number 1707797 was the first Model 64 in my survey with the "30-30 WIN" marking. Both rifles were made in 1950.


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Edited by - Bert H. on 01/29/2009 7:37:42 PM
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MrGnA
Junior Member

188 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2009 :  5:57:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bert,

Much Thanks!
Here's my example:

email me at bill@ArmChairHunter.com
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Mike D.
Starting Member

23 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2009 :  6:25:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
'Ya know, Bert, that pulling the forend off that gun is a major PITA.
I removed the cap, which had probably never been off the gun prior to today, and it appears that the magazine and the forearm tip tenon will also require removal before the forend will come off. It shows no signs of ever being off the gun and is TIGHT. I don't want to screw anything up on this beauty, so might wait for a better day.
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 01/29/2009 :  7:42:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mike D.

'Ya know, Bert, that pulling the forend off that gun is a major PITA.
I removed the cap, which had probably never been off the gun prior to today, and it appears that the magazine and the forearm tip tenon will also require removal before the forend will come off. It shows no signs of ever being off the gun and is TIGHT. I don't want to screw anything up on this beauty, so might wait for a better day.



Hello Mike,

I believe you, and unless you are 100% comfortable with disassembling it, don't do it! There is no sound reason to take a gun apart that has never been apart just for the sake of curiousity.

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44smokeless
Starting Member

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2009 :  02:11:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Bert,
Sorry for the miss que on my first attempted reply.
Model 94-30-30 WIN-
and below that is "---Winchester proof steel---"
I don't see that on any of your other pix.
It has a milled barrel band
factory drilled for sights
checkered steel but s/n 2,125,442
I took this piece out of service from a friend of mine as it was backing out primers pretty bad and I want to keep my buddy alive.
I understand some brass with thicker rims might work ok, but my gunsmith says there really isn't any way to make the old ones any safer because of the complex areas of wear and the newer brass typically having thinner rims.
I hope this is a little help and I'll look for your comments.
Thanks
[/quote]

No problem... I deleted your first attempt to cut down on the clutter.


Edited by - Bert H. on 02/09/2009 2:12:34 PM
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2009 :  2:15:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, and on to your question & comments,

Unless that gun was shot a lot with hot handloads (and the receiver frame has strecthed), there should be no reason for the primers to be backing out. Based on the serial number, it was manufactured in early 1955... a relatively young Model 94 by most standards.

Did you have your 'smith check the headspace? I find it doubtful that the barrel has been swapped, as it has the correct markings for the serial number vintage.

Speaking of the marking on your barrel, it should look just like this one...


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dirtcop
Junior Member

117 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2009 :  7:20:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a win 94, serial#1.442 million in 25-35 WCF with flat band. also checkered steel butt plate.
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2009 :  10:10:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dirtcop

I have a win 94, serial#1.442 million in 25-35 WCF with flat band. also checkered steel butt plate.



Please PM me with the complete serial number. Of the (74) Flat-band Carbines I have in my survey thus far, only (4) of them are 25-35 W.C.F.'s, which makes it a relatively rare.

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tewdemons
Starting Member

USA
1 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2009 :  12:22:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have a Model 94, Serial #2150262 that was left to my by my grandfather some time ago. He purchased it new. Just wanted to add to the post and get your two cents on this particular item. I may be able to post some photos. The rifle has never been touched up, or most likely ever seen by a smith.

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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2009 :  12:30:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tewdemons

I have a Model 94, Serial #2150262 that was left to my by my grandfather some time ago. He purchased it new. Just wanted to add to the post and get your two cents on this particular item. I may be able to post some photos. The rifle has never been touched up, or most likely ever seen by a smith.



Is it a 30-30 WIN. or a 32 WIN. SPL.? The serial number indicates that it is a late 1955 production Carbine. I would appreciate seeing some pictures of it.

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airmung
Member

608 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  12:17:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, Bert,
I'n not sure if this has any bearing to what your are seeking, but thought it might help. I'm looking at an early 1894 rifle. It has a full length magazine tube, is marked "25-35 W.C.F." on the left side barrel flat, topstrap is stamped "MODEL 1894 WINCHESTER TRADE MARK REG. IN U.S. PAT. OFF." Barrel length measures 25 3/8 inches from the front of the receiver to the muzzle. The left barrel flat is marked "NICKEL STEEL BARREL ESPECIALLY FOR SMOKELESS POWDER". The front sight is marked "WESTSITE" on the left side. The top flat of the barrel is stamped "MANUFACTURED BY THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS CO. NEW HAVEN, CONN. U.S.A. PATENTED AUGUST 21, 1894." The serial no. is 4779XX, which I have been told, puts its DOM about 1910. This rifle has a crescent buttplate, although the top is different than the carbine buttplate pictured in your posting, and the contour is different. The buttplate is not checkered or serrated. Needless to say, it is not tapped for a peep sight. The barrel band does not not go around the barrel, but appears to be set into a dovetail on the bottom of the barrel, goes around the magazine tube, and is secured with a pin. It appears to be a milled part. An inspector's stamp on the top front of the receiver matches an adjacent one on the top barrel flat and is a long P overstamped by a W. The receiver definitely has the forging stirations.
Hope this will, help your research.
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  12:55:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by airmung

Hi, Bert,
I'n not sure if this has any bearing to what your are seeking, but thought it might help. I'm looking at an early 1894 rifle. It has a full length magazine tube, is marked "25-35 W.C.F." on the left side barrel flat, topstrap is stamped "MODEL 1894 WINCHESTER TRADE MARK REG. IN U.S. PAT. OFF." Barrel length measures 25 3/8 inches from the front of the receiver to the muzzle. The left barrel flat is marked "NICKEL STEEL BARREL ESPECIALLY FOR SMOKELESS POWDER". The front sight is marked "WESTSITE" on the left side. The top flat of the barrel is stamped "MANUFACTURED BY THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS CO. NEW HAVEN, CONN. U.S.A. PATENTED AUGUST 21, 1894." The serial no. is 4779XX, which I have been told, puts its DOM about 1910. This rifle has a crescent buttplate, although the top is different than the carbine buttplate pictured in your posting, and the contour is different. The buttplate is not checkered or serrated. Needless to say, it is not tapped for a peep sight. The barrel band does not not go around the barrel, but appears to be set into a dovetail on the bottom of the barrel, goes around the magazine tube, and is secured with a pin. It appears to be a milled part. An inspector's stamp on the top front of the receiver matches an adjacent one on the top barrel flat and is a long P overstamped by a W. The receiver definitely has the forging stirations.
Hope this will, help your research.



Thank you for posting, but the information you provided is not of any use to my survey. The information I am seeking is specific to the later production Carbines.

What you have is a standard production Sporting Rifle that was manufactured in late 1910. The butt plate is the standard "crescent" type used on the vast majority of the Sporting Rifles.

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Spider7115
Moderator

USA
27496 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  2:26:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, Bert. I have #2320036, marked "32 WIN. SPL." with checkered steel buttplate. Date of manufacture would be appreciated. Thanks.

-"SPIDER"

ALLAH KA-BAR!


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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  2:32:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Spider7115

Hi, Bert. I have #2320036, marked "32 WIN. SPL." with checkered steel buttplate. Date of manufacture would be appreciated. Thanks.



Hello Tom,

Thank you for the information. Based on my production estimates for the 1950 - 1964 vintage Model 94s, it was manufactured in December of 1958, but it most likely was not completely assembled and shipped until early 1959.

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Horse Plains Drifter
Advanced Member

Botswana
30106 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  3:09:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bert,
I have a model 94.
s/n 1874693
Barrel marked 32 Win. Spl.
It has the checkerd steel butt plate.
It has the milled barrel band.
It has the remains(base?)of a reciever mounted sight. My dad bought the rifle for my brother and me in about 1974 and the sight has never been complete as long as we have owned it.

The information I had, and now I don't even remember where I got it, said it was made in 1951 if I recall correctly.

Can you confirm that date Bert? Thanks in advance.


81st FA BN WWII...Thanks Dad

CA #8....3%



Edited by - Horse Plains Drifter on 02/13/2009 3:29:12 PM
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GuvamintCheese
Advanced Member

35968 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  3:30:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Bert,

I have 3 94's that fit into your range.

1009891 32 spcial, button mag, crescent butt.
1852675 30-30 steel butt
2583488 30-30 steel butt.


Edited by - GuvamintCheese on 02/13/2009 3:37:04 PM
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  4:45:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MT357

Bert,
I have a model 94.
s/n 1874693
Barrel marked 32 Win. Spl.
It has the checkerd steel butt plate.
It has the milled barrel band.
It has the remains(base?)of a reciever mounted sight. My dad bought the rifle for my brother and me in about 1974 and the sight has never been complete as long as we have owned it.

The information I had, and now I don't even remember where I got it, said it was made in 1951 if I recall correctly.

Can you confirm that date Bert? Thanks in advance.



Is it factory drilled & tapped for the receiver sight? If you are unsure, dismount the sight, and checked the tapped holes... if they are completely in the white (no bluing), it is non-factory work.

Based on my estimate, it would have been manufactured in December of 1951. If you remove the forend stock, there should be a 2-digit year code stamped on the bottom of the barrel near the frame.

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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  4:52:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cartod

Hi Bert,

I have 3 94's that fit into your range.

1009891 32 spcial, button mag, crescent butt.
1852675 30-30 steel butt
2583488 30-30 steel butt.





Thanks again for the information.

I already had the info for the Sporting Rifle you recently acquired(nice gun).

Serial 1852675... does it have a drilled & tapped receiver? It was born in 1951.

Serial 2583488 is an early 1963 vintage gun.

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Marner
Senior Member

2033 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  5:18:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Bert I have 2 - 94's (.30.30) in that serial range. I fowarded the info to you. Let me know what you need more and I'll be happy to provide...Thanks
Ron

Edited by - Marner on 02/13/2009 9:06:30 PM
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texasmike
Starting Member

20 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  6:12:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bert-My serial# on my 94 is 2561550-marked 30-30WIN-Full checkered flat butt plate-Factory drilled for peep. This gun has a fine checkered stockiIs fully engraved w/gold inlay of a bear on one side and a running stag on the other.Hope this helps you in small way.Also any information you may have would be appreciated.

Thanks,Mike

Texas Mike
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gearheaddad
Advanced Member

12982 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  7:16:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe this will help you out:
Model 55 Takedown Serial# 4948 1/2 Mag. Serrated shotgun butt 32W.S. Straight grip, 24"round barrel
Model 1894 SRC 30 WCF Serial# 1021928 Reg. carbine butt
Winchester 94 Carbine 30-30 Serial# 2449298 milled band Shotgun checkered butt factory drilled for rec. sight
That is all I have in 94's near your serial# range.
I'll have a couple 64's information soon.
Good luck,
Ed

My Grandpa always said "sounds like too much thinking, why don't you try aiming!"
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  10:15:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by texasmike

Bert-My serial# on my 94 is 2561550-marked 30-30WIN-Full checkered flat butt plate-Factory drilled for peep. This gun has a fine checkered stockiIs fully engraved w/gold inlay of a bear on one side and a running stag on the other.Hope this helps you in small way.Also any information you may have would be appreciated.

Thanks,Mike



Hello Mike,

At this point, all that I can tell you is that your Model 94 was manufactured in very late 1962. I can not confirm the authenticity of the engraving or deluxe features. If you can post (or send me) clear detailed pictures of the gun, I may be able to provide more information about the extras your Model 94 has.

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GuvamintCheese
Advanced Member

35968 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  10:20:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bert H.

quote:
Originally posted by cartod

Hi Bert,

I have 3 94's that fit into your range.

1009891 32 spcial, button mag, crescent butt.
1852675 30-30 steel butt
2583488 30-30 steel butt.





Thanks again for the information.

I already had the info for the Sporting Rifle you recently acquired(nice gun).

Serial 1852675... does it have a drilled & tapped receiver? It was born in 1951.
Serial 2583488 is an early 1963 vintage gun.

No, it is not drilled.


Edited by - GuvamintCheese on 02/13/2009 10:30:35 PM
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  10:33:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gearheaddad

Maybe this will help you out:
Model 55 Takedown Serial# 4948 1/2 Mag. Serrated shotgun butt 32W.S. Straight grip, 24"round barrel
Model 1894 SRC 30 WCF Serial# 1021928 Reg. carbine butt
Winchester 94 Carbine 30-30 Serial# 2449298 milled band Shotgun checkered butt factory drilled for rec. sight
That is all I have in 94's near your serial# range.
I'll have a couple 64's information soon.
Good luck,
Ed


Hello Ed,

Thank you very much.

1. Model 55 serial 4948 = 1926
2. Model 94 1021928 = 1928
3. Model 94 2449298 = 1960 (very late)

All three guns are standard in all repsects.

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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  10:43:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cartod

quote:
Originally posted by Bert H.

quote:
Originally posted by cartod

Hi Bert,

I have 3 94's that fit into your range.

1009891 32 spcial, button mag, crescent butt.
1852675 30-30 steel butt
2583488 30-30 steel butt.





Thanks again for the information.

I already had the info for the Sporting Rifle you recently acquired(nice gun).

Serial 1852675... does it have a drilled & tapped receiver? It was born in 1951.
Serial 2583488 is an early 1963 vintage gun.

No, it is not drilled.





Hello Todd,

Thanks!

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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2009 :  11:24:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Marner


Bert I have 2 - 94's (.30.30) in that serial range. I fowarded the info to you. Let me know what you need more and I'll be happy to provide...Thanks
Ron



Hello Ron,

Got it, and thank you very much.

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hclark
New Member

USA
71 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2009 :  01:06:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Win 94 Carb, SN 1247546, 1941:
32 WS
Serrated BP
Not D&T
Milled BB

Win 94 Carb, SN 1432806, 1948:
32 WS
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB

Win 94 Carb, SN 1473334, 1948:
30 WCF
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB

Win 94 Carb, SN 1717918, 1951:
25-35 WIN
Flat checkered BP
Has receiver mounted peep sight, but location indicates that it may not be factory D&T'd (further towards rear of receiver than I believe factory holes would be)
Milled BB
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44smokeless
Starting Member

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2009 :  4:29:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My understanding is the gun headspaces on the rim, and with brass being mfg now the rim is thinner ie the headspace getting excess. I have seen some 94s at the range during sight ins where the primers are more than half way backed out. When I see that I ask that the gun not be shot on the range. Am I over reacting or is this a potential disaster?
Thanks for your insight and opinions,
JohnOriginally posted by Bert H.

OK, and on to your question & comments,

Unless that gun was shot a lot with hot handloads (and the receiver frame has strecthed), there should be no reason for the primers to be backing out. Based on the serial number, it was manufactured in early 1955... a relatively young Model 94 by most standards.

Did you have your 'smith check the headspace? I find it doubtful that the barrel has been swapped, as it has the correct markings for the serial number vintage.

Speaking of the marking on your barrel, it should look just like this one...


[/quote]
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2009 :  8:47:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hclark

Win 94 Carb, SN 1247546, 1941: 1940 per the PRSB
32 WS
Serrated BP
Not D&T
Milled BB

Win 94 Carb, SN 1432806, 1948: 1947
32 WS
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB

Win 94 Carb, SN 1473334, 1948: Early 1948
30 WCF
Flat checkered BP
Not D&T
Flat BB

Win 94 Carb, SN 1717918, 1951: 1950
25-35 WIN
Flat checkered BP
Has receiver mounted peep sight, but location indicates that it may not be factory D&T'd (further towards rear of receiver than I believe factory holes would be)
Milled BB



Thank you very much for the information.

I have several follow up questions for you...

1. Does serial 1247546 have a "W" stamped on the bottom of the frame behind the serial number?

2. Is serial number 1717918 marked "25-35 WIN." or is it marked "25-35 W.C.F."?

3. If you are up to it, all four of your Carbines should have a barrel date code on the bottom of the barrel under the forend stock... can you check them for me?

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Edited by - Bert H. on 02/17/2009 01:30:02 AM
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2009 :  9:52:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 44smokeless

My understanding is the gun headspaces on the rim, and with brass being mfg now the rim is thinner ie the headspace getting excess. I have seen some 94s at the range during sight ins where the primers are more than half way backed out. When I see that I ask that the gun not be shot on the range. Am I over reacting or is this a potential disaster?
Thanks for your insight and opinions,
John


I would recommend trying a different brand of factory ammo. The 30-30 does indeed headspace on the rim, and if the ammo being shot has an overly thin rim, I would also suspect that you would be experiencing misfires. What does the firing pin indentation look like?

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hclark
New Member

USA
71 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2009 :  12:49:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bert,
I will check and get back to you on your questions.
Hugh
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Bert H.
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USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2009 :  4:07:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hclark

Bert,
I will check and get back to you on your questions.
Hugh



Thanks, I really appreciate it.

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hclark
New Member

USA
71 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2009 :  5:29:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bert:
I added some info that you might find interesting in blue print.

1. "Does serial 1247546 have a "W" stamped on the bottom of the frame behind the serial number?" Yes, on flat part of receiver below the SN.
2. "Is serial number 1717918 marked "25-35 WIN." or is it marked "25-35 W.C.F."? 25-35 WIN.

3. "If you are up to it, all four of your Carbines should have a barrel date code on the bottom of the barrel under the forend stock... can you check them for me?"

SN 1247546; 40 32WS,
has checkered hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.

SN 1432806; 32WS 47,
has checkered hammer spur and groove in magazine plug.

SN 1473334; 30WCF 47,
has grooved hammer spur and groove in magazine plug

SN 1717918; 25-35 50,
has grooved hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2009 :  10:26:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hclark

Bert:
I added some info that you might find interesting in blue print.

1. "Does serial 1247546 have a "W" stamped on the bottom of the frame behind the serial number?" Yes, on flat part of receiver below the SN.
2. "Is serial number 1717918 marked "25-35 WIN." or is it marked "25-35 W.C.F."? 25-35 WIN.

3. "If you are up to it, all four of your Carbines should have a barrel date code on the bottom of the barrel under the forend stock... can you check them for me?"

SN 1247546; 40 32WS,
has checkered hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.

SN 1432806; 32WS 47,
has checkered hammer spur and groove in magazine plug.

SN 1473334; 30WCF 47,
has grooved hammer spur and groove in magazine plug

SN 1717918; 25-35 50,
has grooved hammer spur and no groove in magazine plug.



Thank you very much! The barrel date codes match up perfectly with what I expected them to be. It appears that you have a very fine batch of Model 94 Carbines.

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Edited by - Bert H. on 02/17/2009 10:27:15 PM
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gearheaddad
Advanced Member

12982 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2009 :  08:58:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Bert,
I hope this helps you out.
Thanks,
Ed
Winchester 1894 SRC 30 W.C.F. Std. carbine butt Serial#1021928

Winchester 94 carbine 30-30 milled band checkered steel butt serial# 2449298

Winchester 55 take down rifle 32 W.S. "serrated shotgun butt" serial# 4948

Model 64 information to follow.

My Grandpa always said "sounds like too much thinking, why don't you try aiming!"
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2009 :  1:59:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gearheaddad

Hi Bert,
I hope this helps you out.
Thanks,
Ed
Winchester 1894 SRC 30 W.C.F. Std. carbine butt Serial#1021928

Winchester 94 carbine 30-30 milled band checkered steel butt serial# 2449298

Winchester 55 take down rifle 32 W.S. "serrated shotgun butt" serial# 4948

Model 64 information to follow.



Hello ED,

I already had the information for all three guns (I think you sent it to me in an email several weeks ago). Regardless, here is what I can tell you;

1. Serial 1021928 is a 1928 vintage SRC. The bottom of the barrel under the forend stock should be marked "28". It should also have a Type-5 upper tang stamp (see the picture below).

2. Serial 244928 is a very late 1960 vintage Carbine.

3. Model 55 serial 4948 is a 1926 vintage rifle, and it should also have a "26" stamped on the bottom of the barrel.


Type-5 Tang stamp...

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Edited by - Bert H. on 02/18/2009 2:11:55 PM
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kimi
Advanced Member

USA
43742 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2009 :  2:48:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bert, the more attention that I pay to your Winchester Survey Study, the more interesting it becomes in a great many ways. I believe if you continue this survey with an added focus on the war years, that when all is said and done, it might well result in establishing a new category altogether for describing the World War II Winchester Model 94. Such a new classification could easily be sandwiched between the Winchester Model 94 Pre-War and the Winchester Model 94 Pre-64 as currently described by Renneberg in his book, rather than have the many differences packaged under their Variation II, Type 6 and Variation II, Type 7 categories. As a matter of opinion, I have no doubt that the Winchester 94 that were made from 1942 through 1945 will present more than enough variants in features, to include, some of which have not been noted to date, that would go far in the justification such a new category. Thank you for all of the time and effort you are spending to advance the knowledge and fun that comes with the collecting of the Winchester 94.



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A couple of favorite quotes:

"What goes around comes around."

“Abe, climb down from Mt. Rushmore, and vacate the penny. Your days in the pantheon are over, thanks to the scholarship and courage of Thomas J. DiLorenzo.” — Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.



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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2009 :  3:56:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kimi

Bert, the more attention that I pay to your Winchester Survey Study, the more interesting it becomes in a great many ways. I believe if you continue this survey with an added focus on the war years, that when all is said and done, it might well result in establishing a new category altogether for describing the World War II Winchester Model 94. Such a new classification could easily be sandwiched between the Winchester Model 94 Pre-War and the Winchester Model 94 Pre-64 as currently described by Renneberg in his book, rather than have the many differences packaged under their Variation II, Type 6 and Variation II, Type 7 categories. As a matter of opinion, I have no doubt that the Winchester 94 that were made from 1942 through 1945 will present more than enough variants in features, to include, some of which have not been noted to date, that would go far in the justification such a new category. Thank you for all of the time and effort you are spending to advance the knowledge and fun that comes with the collecting of the Winchester 94.



You and everyone else are most welcome.

I actually have been focusing in on the War year production guns, as well as those preceding and following the War. This survey of mine is both fun, and very educational. Thus far, I have (814) guns listed, and would like to survey at least (1200) more. The picture my spreadsheet is painting for me is extremely interesting to say the least, and at this point, it would be a bit overwhelming to somebody who is not familar with it. I have been sending it to Bob Renneberg about twice a week, and he too is fascinated with it. He is using a fair amount of data contained within it for the newly revised edition to his book. The good news is that I will not have to buy a copy of it... he promised that a special copy is waiting for me


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kimi
Advanced Member

USA
43742 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2009 :  5:25:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bert H.

quote:
Originally posted by kimi

Bert, the more attention that I pay to your Winchester Survey Study, the more interesting it becomes in a great many ways. I believe if you continue this survey with an added focus on the war years, that when all is said and done, it might well result in establishing a new category altogether for describing the World War II Winchester Model 94. Such a new classification could easily be sandwiched between the Winchester Model 94 Pre-War and the Winchester Model 94 Pre-64 as currently described by Renneberg in his book, rather than have the many differences packaged under their Variation II, Type 6 and Variation II, Type 7 categories. As a matter of opinion, I have no doubt that the Winchester 94 that were made from 1942 through 1945 will present more than enough variants in features, to include, some of which have not been noted to date, that would go far in the justification such a new category. Thank you for all of the time and effort you are spending to advance the knowledge and fun that comes with the collecting of the Winchester 94.



You and everyone else are most welcome.

I actually have been focusing in on the War year production guns, as well as those preceding and following the War. This survey of mine is both fun, and very educational. Thus far, I have (814) guns listed, and would like to survey at least (1200) more. The picture my spreadsheet is painting for me is extremely interesting to say the least, and at this point, it would be a bit overwhelming to somebody who is not familar with it. I have been sending it to Bob Renneberg about twice a week, and he too is fascinated with it. He is using a fair amount of data contained within it for the newly revised edition to his book. The good news is that I will not have to buy a copy of it... he promised that a special copy is waiting for me





Bert, I think if you put even more of an added focus on the "war years" than what you might be doing already, that the results would show enough justification for Renneberg to not only delineate features that he currently associates with the Variation II, Type 6 as the Pre-War Model 94 in serial number range 1,000,000 to 1,350,000, and the Variation II, Type 7 as the Pre-64 Model in the serial number range 1,350,000 to 2,600,001, that justification could be made to establish a category for a War-Model 94, which could be, for example, designated as the Variation II, Type 6B, in the serial number range, say, from 1,300,000 to 1,350,000.

Granted, the serial number range for such a "sample example" as shown above would be small compared to other variantions, but it would better describe the Winchester Model 94 made in the serial number range that you show in your survey for the war-years 1942-1945. As it stands right now we have a Pre-War Model 94 Category and a Post-War (Pre-64) Model 94 Category, but no War-Model Category when there seems to be more than just a little bit of justification to establish one.

First, if an attempt to establish and define a War-Model 94 was undertaken, then a starting point to identify the many different variables associated with this range would be necessary. Second, some of the variables that Renneberg currently notes as taking place in the Type 6 or Type 7 variations could be shown under the heading of the "sample example" War-Model previously mentioned, along with the many facts that your study turns up such as the "flatband" making its appearance as early as 1942. Facts like this, and others that are known, could be used to not only create what appears to be a worthy category, but provide new information and pictures to support its justification as well.

Hey, please make sure that I can buy a signed copy of Renneberg's book too, BUDDY!



What's next

A couple of favorite quotes:

"What goes around comes around."

“Abe, climb down from Mt. Rushmore, and vacate the penny. Your days in the pantheon are over, thanks to the scholarship and courage of Thomas J. DiLorenzo.” — Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.




Edited by - kimi on 02/27/2009 5:28:31 PM
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 03/18/2009 :  11:08:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kimi

quote:
Originally posted by Bert H.

quote:
Originally posted by kimi

Bert, the more attention that I pay to your Winchester Survey Study, the more interesting it becomes in a great many ways. I believe if you continue this survey with an added focus on the war years, that when all is said and done, it might well result in establishing a new category altogether for describing the World War II Winchester Model 94. Such a new classification could easily be sandwiched between the Winchester Model 94 Pre-War and the Winchester Model 94 Pre-64 as currently described by Renneberg in his book, rather than have the many differences packaged under their Variation II, Type 6 and Variation II, Type 7 categories. As a matter of opinion, I have no doubt that the Winchester 94 that were made from 1942 through 1945 will present more than enough variants in features, to include, some of which have not been noted to date, that would go far in the justification such a new category. Thank you for all of the time and effort you are spending to advance the knowledge and fun that comes with the collecting of the Winchester 94.



You and everyone else are most welcome.

I actually have been focusing in on the War year production guns, as well as those preceding and following the War. This survey of mine is both fun, and very educational. Thus far, I have (814) guns listed, and would like to survey at least (1200) more. The picture my spreadsheet is painting for me is extremely interesting to say the least, and at this point, it would be a bit overwhelming to somebody who is not familar with it. I have been sending it to Bob Renneberg about twice a week, and he too is fascinated with it. He is using a fair amount of data contained within it for the newly revised edition to his book. The good news is that I will not have to buy a copy of it... he promised that a special copy is waiting for me





Bert, I think if you put even more of an added focus on the "war years" than what you might be doing already, that the results would show enough justification for Renneberg to not only delineate features that he currently associates with the Variation II, Type 6 as the Pre-War Model 94 in serial number range 1,000,000 to 1,350,000, and the Variation II, Type 7 as the Pre-64 Model in the serial number range 1,350,000 to 2,600,001, that justification could be made to establish a category for a War-Model 94, which could be, for example, designated as the Variation II, Type 6B, in the serial number range, say, from 1,300,000 to 1,350,000.

Granted, the serial number range for such a "sample example" as shown above would be small compared to other variantions, but it would better describe the Winchester Model 94 made in the serial number range that you show in your survey for the war-years 1942-1945. As it stands right now we have a Pre-War Model 94 Category and a Post-War (Pre-64) Model 94 Category, but no War-Model Category when there seems to be more than just a little bit of justification to establish one.

First, if an attempt to establish and define a War-Model 94 was undertaken, then a starting point to identify the many different variables associated with this range would be necessary. Second, some of the variables that Renneberg currently notes as taking place in the Type 6 or Type 7 variations could be shown under the heading of the "sample example" War-Model previously mentioned, along with the many facts that your study turns up such as the "flatband" making its appearance as early as 1942. Facts like this, and others that are known, could be used to not only create what appears to be a worthy category, but provide new information and pictures to support its justification as well.

Hey, please make sure that I can buy a signed copy of Renneberg's book too, BUDDY!



I now have (1161) Winchester Model 55, 64, and 94s listed in my survey. Of that total, (83) are Model 55s, and (166) are Model 64s. In regards to the "war year" guns, unfortunately, further study is severely limited by the small number of guns available to research. I simply am not finding very many of them to look at or observe. The vast number of the "war era" guns I have found are the Canadian PCMR Carbines, and all of them are like peas in a pod.

On a positive note, I completed the first in a series of articles based on this survey, and it has been sent it in for publishing. It will first be published in the WACA magazine (not sure which edition yet).

I am still looking for more guns and data to add to the survey... please put the word out to everyone you know who owns a Winchester Model 55, 64, or 94 to contact me here on the forum, or at Win1885@msn.com

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mikey888f
Starting Member

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2009 :  5:03:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
bert: i am just getting into the 94 info. and find it really interesting! a question which may not make sense: can you give me a serial number range for a 1943 year 84? i'm looking for one for sentimental reasons. hope this doesn't distract you from your work and if i find one, i'll certainly contribute the numbers. the serial number ranges i got off the web are way off yours. help!! mike m.
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2009 :  10:24:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mikey888f

bert: i am just getting into the 94 info. and find it really interesting! a question which may not make sense: can you give me a serial number range for a 1943 year 84? i'm looking for one for sentimental reasons. hope this doesn't distract you from your work and if i find one, i'll certainly contribute the numbers. the serial number ranges i got off the web are way off yours. help!! mike m.



Hello Mike,

I do indeed have the serial number range for a 1943 production Model 94, but you may find it very difficult to find one. Production of the Model 94 was extremely low in the years 1943 - 1945 due to World War II. The last serial number in 1942 was 1343183, so if you want a 1943 production gun, you will need to find one with a serial number of 1343184 - 1346144... just a mere 2,960 serial numbers to choose from.

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Real Men own and shoot a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!



Edited by - Bert H. on 03/27/2009 4:40:47 PM
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mikey888f
Starting Member

USA
22 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2009 :  4:32:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
bert: thanks a lot. you are right, i've seen a lot "around" those numbers but am getting eye and brain fatigue. thanks again and i'll send you the info if i get lucky! dmm
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spookster
Member

USA
666 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2009 :  7:20:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bert,
Heres another 1894 I just picked up,,,, ser # 946452 20" saddle ring carbine, chambered in 32WS shotgun style butt,,, 1-9 ladder type rear sight and blade front sight,,, and 1/2 magazine,,, upper tang is marked " model 94 ",,, unfortunately someone has cleand the reciever of its finish,,, barrel still has blue from rec to barrel band,, but it still has the saddle ring intact and a nice bore.

Jim
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 04/02/2009 :  01:18:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spookster

Bert,
Heres another 1894 I just picked up,,,, ser # 946452 20" saddle ring carbine, chambered in 32WS shotgun style butt,,, 1-9 ladder type rear sight and blade front sight,,, and 1/2 magazine,,, upper tang is marked " model 94 ",,, unfortunately someone has cleand the reciever of its finish,,, barrel still has blue from rec to barrel band,, but it still has the saddle ring intact and a nice bore.

Jim



Hello Jim,

You have a late year 1922 vintage SRC, with possibly a special order butt stock/plate.

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bkmach1
Starting Member

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2009 :  1:00:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bert,
Here is another one for your survey. You helped me date this rifle a couple of years ago on another forum.
SN: 2093863
Upper tang is blank (no marking)
Drilled and tapped for peep sight
Checkered buttplate
Milled barrel band

Marked
"Model-94- 30-30 WIN"
"Winchester Proof Steel" (directly below above)

to the left of above is:
"WINCHESTER"
"Trademark"
"Made in U.S.A"

I'm having problems posting pictures so I'm going to send all of this in an email to you also.

Brad
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Bert H.
Moderator

USA
11329 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2009 :  1:14:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bkmach1

Bert,
Here is another one for your survey. You helped me date this rifle a couple of years ago on another forum.
SN: 2093863
Upper tang is blank (no marking)
Drilled and tapped for peep sight
Checkered buttplate
Milled barrel band

Marked
"Model-94- 30-30 WIN"
"Winchester Proof Steel" (directly below above)

to the left of above is:
"WINCHESTER"
"Trademark"
"Made in U.S.A"

I'm having problems posting pictures so I'm going to send all of this in an email to you also.

Brad




Hello Brad,

Thanks for the information. Just to be sure that you have the correct DOM information, your Model 94 Carbine was manufactured in late 1954. The bottom of the barrel (under the forend stock and magazine tube) should be marked "54". If you could verify that for me, I would very much appreciate it.

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Bert H. - http://www.bbhc.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/

Real Men own and shoot a WINCHESTER Single-Shot!



Edited by - Bert H. on 05/23/2009 1:15:39 PM
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