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 SAFETY, Mauser 95, .308 and CETME
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Bassethound
Starting Member

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2009 :  11:29:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On the market are surplus Mauser rifles. Example: 95 mausers chambered for the .308. Yes and no! Will a .308 chamber and fire? YES! Pressure of today's .308 runs 50,000 to 60,000 lbs/square inch. The 95 Mauser is a small ring. The 95 has only two lugs on the bolt. These lugs are the front of the bolt. Designed to hold the bolt in the action. The 95 does a good job on holding the bolt in place, and not in your face. The 95 was used with 40,000 psi ammo, 7X57mm etc. The "".308"" that some 95's are barreled for is not the "over the counter" .308. They are chambered for the "CETME" round. CETME round is the same as today's .308 but not the NATO 7.62X51mm. The CETME round is DOWN LOADED TO 40,000 psi, that is what the 95 was designed to hold. In the short of it: any one that is using comm. .308, is a fool, and at great risk of needing a new face and a very good hospital bill. Please pass the word along.


sandwarrior
Advanced Member

USA
5323 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2009 :  4:33:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bassetthound,

So what you're saying is don't load todays .308 in a '95 Mauser rebarreled to .308? Or are you saying to not shoot 7.62x51 NATO in one? Because the 7.62 NATO is less pressure than what commercial .308 can be loaded to. Also, I think the CETME ammo you are talking about is specifically for the FR-7(?) rifle which was a training go between between the Mauser rifle they had and the new 'post-war' semi-auto rifles being developed. When the CETME was adopted they used regular strength 7.62 NATO rounds.

FWIW, the 7x57 has a SAAMI limitation of 51,000 psi and a CIP limitation of 57,000 psi. 7.62 NATO is supposed to be 52,000-55,000 PSI. .308 can be loaded up to 62,000 psi. Seeing as how 7.62 NATO is pretty well within the ballpark of what's considered safe by the more restrictive limitation (SAAMI 7x57, for which the rifle was built) I would say you are safe using that. As you can see, it's full power .308 that you shouldn't load in the older pre '98 Mausers.

I will say all of them that I've come across are very strong if they are in good condition. But, without the safety redundancy of the '98 I wouldn't push doing that. Just shoot it with low power loads and enjoy it. Besides, it won't kick as much.



Every shot serves a purpose, whether accurate or inaccurate. It will always tell you what you did, and did not do, right. Even if all you have is a fraction of a second to make it, learn from it. So the next one is even better.
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TRAP55
Advanced Member

USA
6217 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2009 :  6:37:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
The 95 has only two lugs on the bolt. These lugs are the front of the bolt. Designed to hold the bolt in the action.

All Mausers only have two locking lugs, the third lug on the 98 actions is a safety lug. If the safety lug is making contact with the receiver, you already have locking lug setback.


"Aim small, Miss small"
www.mausercentral.com
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nononsense
Moderator

8882 Posts

Posted - 09/15/2009 :  8:02:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bassethound,

Welcome to the GunBroker Forums!

Thank you for your concern about our safety, it's much appreciated. Please be advised that we have covered this topic many times over the years and most of the members are well aware of this information. I have written about this situation several time here and on other forums.

What you are missing is the White Laboratory report citing the particulars of these actions and their results of the destructive testing that they did. Suffice it to say that they found the actions were sufficiently strong enough to handle DOUBLE the pressures that you state.

These rifles are not chambered for the CETME cartridge but for the 7.62x51 NATO cartridge.

Here is a copy of a previous response that I made a while back:

I'm going to attempt to straighten out this mess a bit so that you get the right and true information regarding the Spanish Mauser Model 1916. This Mauser can also go by the names 93, 95, Civil Guardia and FR-7.

Design:

The Spanish Mauser 1916 was designed and manufactured for the most part in Germany by Mauser and Ludwig Lowe. Later manufacturing was handled by German contractors in Spain and finally by the Spanish arsenals. There is no strength or metallurgical difference between the manufacturers, they are equal. The only differences between Spanish-made and German-made is reflected in the metal finishing and slightly in the fitting.

The Spanish Mauser 1916 was originally chambered for the 7x57 Mauser as the Model 1893. The 1916 designation (M93) is a Small Ring Mauser which did not have the gas shroud, the bolt sleeve lock and the third lug, features that we're familiar with in the Model 98.

Ammunition:

The original chambering in 7x57 had a pressure ceiling of 46,000 CUP and was proof tested significantly above that for the safety factor. Reloading manuals still refer to two levels of pressure when loading for the 7x57 Mauser, the lower for the 1916 and the more modern, higher pressure reserved for M98's and later modern receivers. Spain re-barreled most of the 1916's in the '50's to the 7.62Nato cartridge, staying in step with the cross utilization of the Nato forces around the world.

Here is the confusion about this chamber and ammunition.

The Model 1916 was NEVER chambered for the 7.62CETME. This cartridge was only chambered in the CETME Model A and B assault rifles, not the bolt rifles. The Model 1916 was re-barreled for the 7.62NATO with M80 Ball only. This cartridge had a pressure ceiling of 50,000 PSI.

This is the kicker.

The .308 Winchester commercial hunting loads are NOT the same as the 7.62NATO loads. The commercial loads have an upper limit of 60,200 PSI or roughly 10,000 PSI HIGHER than the 7.62NATO loads. The biggest problem that shooters run into with these designations is that nearly every country in the world has manufactured 7.62NATO ammunition and it is not always consistant. We have all seen and shot 7.62NATO ammunition that is incredibly hot. That's why military chambers are cut slightly oversize so as to accommodate the varying pressures of NATO ammunition. The Mausers will handle the rare attempt to use the higher pressure .308 Win. but it should not be subjected to continuous usage. DO Not use commercial .308 Win. ammunition in a Model 1916 Mauser. If you shoot reloads, maintain your pressure level at 46,000 PSI upper level. This answers richbug's problem which is ammunition related and not quality related to the 1916.

Two more things to clear up:

Using 6mm Remington ammunition in a 1916 is NOT recommended since the factory loads run at 62,300 PSI which is significantly over pressured for the 1916.

Most of the bolt action rifles in the world have been manufactured without the third lug. Virtually all of the modern rifles have only two lugs. Yes, there are a couple of exceptions, I'm talking about the majority. The third lug does not bear or come into contact with the receiver ever... unless there is a case of absolute catastrophic failure. Then it acts to prevent the bolt from leaving the receiver. Using the excuse of no third lug to say a receiver is weak is pure unadulterated garbage. Yes it's a great safety factor but receivers lacking a third lug are not necessarily weak.

Yes, I am a Mauser fanatic. I study them and work with them on a daily basis. This is not just more internet disinformation. If you have doubts, do some research, even if it's only using the internet but use good sources.

The 1916 will be a fine general purpose rifle if you avoid using high pressure or incorrect ammunition. Mild sporterizing is perfectly acceptable just don't get carried away unless you're doing the work yourself. It can get expensive.

I apologize for the length but some corrections were needed.

Best.






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jonk
Advanced Member

9525 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2009 :  08:40:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FWIW the same caveat would apply to Enfield 2A and 2A1 rifles. 7.62 NATO only, not .308. Is all .308 dangerous? No, but unless you contact the manufacturer regarding the pressure of that loading you should regard it as such. Will it cause catastrophic failure? Probably not, but it will over time set back lugs and lead to excessive headspace, and eventually a ruptured case head and broken case.

"...hit your enemy in the belly, and kick him when he is down, and boil his prisoners in oil- if you take any- and torture his women and children. Then people will keep clear of you..." -Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher, speaking at the Hague Peace Conf
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beantownshootah
Advanced Member

USA
12956 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2009 :  09:41:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In sum, we've established that the older Spanish .308 Mausers, and the Indian 2a "Ishapore" Enfields are intended for use with 7.62x51 NATO type ammo only.

Limited use of higher-pressure factory .308 Winchester probably won't blow up the gun, but is discouraged as it will contribute to wear and tear that many eventually cause a problem.

Now here is the question. Are there any military surplus type .308 bolt action guns that *ARE* strong enough to handle high pressure factory type .308 loads?

Next question, which do people prefer, the Ishapore Enfield or the Spanish Mauser? The Enfields just look ugly as heck, but the higher capacity and faster action seem like they could add to the "fun" factor.

EDIT: Response to below from Sandwarrior
quote:
As far as the Enfields go, I've shot them as fast as I could and I couldn't come anywhere near the accuracy or speed of my AR.... But shooting is always fun

Of course nobody is going to be able to shoot a bolt action rifle as fast as a functional semi-automatic in the same caliber, but the difference isn't as great as some might think.

Specifically, with a fast-action bolt like the Enfield and a good amount of practice, you're basically reloading the gun during the recoil phase of the shot, so you don't lose much time from working the action. So skilled shooters can put rounds downrange accurately with an Enfield amazingly fast.

The world record is apparently 38 rounds of .303 (which is basically equivalent to .308) from an Enfield into a 12 inch circle at 300 yards in 60 seconds! Pretty damn impressive, if you consider that this feat includes TWO magazine refills!

Also, you have to figure the increased durability and reliability of a bolt-action rifle are worth something too.

Edited by - beantownshootah on 09/16/2009 12:49:10 PM
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sandwarrior
Advanced Member

USA
5323 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2009 :  12:06:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
beantownshootah,

quote:
originally posted by Beantownshootah
Now here is the question. Are there any military surplus type .308 bolt action guns that *ARE* strong enough to handle high pressure factory type .308 loads?


Yes, most every 98 is strong enough to do that if in good condition. Also, I've seen the 1895 Chileano Mausers chambered for .308 I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but I've seen it. Also, 1903's, model of 1917's and model of 1914(again not sure if that's a good idea) and M91 Mosin's (why... I don't know) And lastly, and M54(?) Mannlicher, because the guy liked a smoooooth action.

As far as the Enfields go, I've shot them as fast as I could and I couldn't come anywhere near the accuracy or speed of my AR.... But shooting is always fun

The only three I will attest to being strong enough are the '98, 1917 and 1903(with high enough serial no.). But, again I've seen a bunch of other .308's. Mostly because of availability of ammo and commonality with military ammo.

Edit:

quote:
originally posted by Beantownshootah
EDIT: Response to below from Sandwarrior

quote:As far as the Enfields go, I've shot them as fast as I could and I couldn't come anywhere near the accuracy or speed of my AR.... But shooting is always fun


Of course nobody is going to be able to shoot a bolt action rifle as fast as a functional semi-automatic in the same caliber, but the difference isn't as great as some might think.

Specifically, with a fast-action bolt like the Enfield and a good amount of practice, you're basically reloading the gun during the recoil phase of the shot, so you don't lose much time from working the action. So skilled shooters can put rounds downrange accurately with an Enfield amazingly fast.

The world record is apparently 38 rounds of .303 (which is basically equivalent to .308) from an Enfield into a 12 inch circle at 300 yards in 60 seconds! Pretty damn impressive, if you consider that this feat includes TWO magazine refills!

Also, you have to figure the increased durability and reliability of a bolt-action rifle are worth something too.


The point was...I had a lot of fun trying I know there isn't any real comparison of my accurized AR to my well worn Enfield



Every shot serves a purpose, whether accurate or inaccurate. It will always tell you what you did, and did not do, right. Even if all you have is a fraction of a second to make it, learn from it. So the next one is even better.

Edited by - sandwarrior on 09/16/2009 11:05:15 PM
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jonk
Advanced Member

9525 Posts

Posted - 09/16/2009 :  12:08:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sandwarrior

beantownshootah,

quote:
Now here is the question. Are there any military surplus type .308 bolt action guns that *ARE* strong enough to handle high pressure factory type .308 loads?


Yes, most every M98 is strong enough to do that. Also, I've seen the 1895 Chileano Mausers chambered for .308 I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but I've seen it.

As far as the Enfields go, I've shot them as fast as I could and I couldn't come anywhere near the accuracy or speed of my AR.... But shooting is always fun

The Israeli re-barreled 98ks come to mind. The Steyr 1912s as well. Those are true 98 actions.

"...hit your enemy in the belly, and kick him when he is down, and boil his prisoners in oil- if you take any- and torture his women and children. Then people will keep clear of you..." -Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher, speaking at the Hague Peace Conf
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