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 Colt Lord & Lady Derringers
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HOWBECK
New Member

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  8:10:53 PM  Show Profile
I have a excellent condition set of Colt Lord & Lady 22 Caliber Derringers with consecutive serial numbers ending in DER. What info I can come up with is the Lord & Lady are supposed to be firing models with the Fourth Model being non-firing. Trouble is I can't get these open. Any input would be appreciated. They are in a very nice wooden case.
Thanks.

H.O.Caudle

zink
Advanced Member

USA
5048 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  8:15:04 PM  Show Profile
On the frame in front of the trigger there should be a button. Push it and twist the barrel to open.

Lance
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HOWBECK
New Member

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  8:22:11 PM  Show Profile
Sorry, but there is no button.
Thanks.

H.O.Caudle
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Spider7115
Moderator

USA
24734 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  9:09:30 PM  Show Profile
Colt (made by Butler) did offer some "display model" derringers that were welded shut so they weren't operable. They were used for gifts. Maybe you have a set of those.

-"SPIDER"

ALLAH KA-BAR!


GunBroker.com Moderator
The Largest Auction Gun Store Online including Pistols, Shotguns, and Rifles

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nmyers
Advanced Member

12668 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  9:12:36 PM  Show Profile
The Lord & Lady are variations of the Colt 4th Model derringer; all are firing .22 short models. Colt never sold non-firing 4th Model derringers.

Colt contracted the manufacture of this model to Butler, who also made several variations with their own name on the gun. Some of these models were firing .22 short models, some were black powder, & some were non-guns (lacking a recoil plate which could be purchased separately from another company).

To open your guns, you must first pull the hammer back to the first notch. You can then rotate the muzzle laterally to your left.

Neal

EDIT: The barrel rotates to the side, not down. Put your left thumb on the left side of the breech, your right fingers on the right side of the barrel, & twist.

Handle these guns as little as possible, that is not gold plate, it is gold wash; a few rubs with a soft cloth, & the finish is gone.

Edited by - nmyers on 11/17/2011 10:22:17 PM
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HOWBECK
New Member

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  9:31:36 PM  Show Profile
The barrel will wiggle on both guns and I am sure it is not welded. I have tried the half cock and everything else. I read where the back of the barrel was solid on the non-firing models but this one is open for a 22 short. I can see the hammer move when I shine a light down the barrel. Got me bumfuzzled !
Really appreciate the replies.

H.O.Caudle
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zink
Advanced Member

USA
5048 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  9:45:45 PM  Show Profile
nmmyers is correct. Pull hammer back to first notch and twist. I was thinking of the Sharps pepperbox.

Edited by - zink on 11/17/2011 9:47:30 PM
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v35
Advanced Member

USA
12589 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2011 :  11:16:56 PM  Show Profile
Twist means rotate barrel to the rt side while at half cock.
I believe there's a screw underneath,holding the barrel in the frame.
Unscrew it and lift the barrel up.
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Stack
New Member

82 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  12:56:48 AM  Show Profile
Colt did produce non-firing models of their Number 4 Derringer. Mine was mounted on a plaque with a Mississippi river boat gambling theme. The live firing models have a very small curved indentation on the rear of the barrel, beneath the chamber, that a spring loaded bolt, mounted in the rear of the frame, enters to prevent the barrel from moving when the derringer is in the closed position. Twisting the barrel to the right with the hammer in the half-cock notch, using hand pressure, forces the spring loaded bolt out of the barrel's indentation, allowing for loading. On the non-firing models, the indentation on the rear of the barrel is drilled deeply, without any curvature, so when the barrel is rotatated, at the factory, to the closed position, it becomes permanent, the bolt having entered deeply into the hole. There is no way to retract the bolt to open the barrel. These non-firing Colt derringers have no serial number and will have a hole on the side of the frame for mounting to the plaque. I have owned two of these non-firing Colt derringers.

Edited by - Stack on 11/18/2011 01:02:14 AM
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Spider7115
Moderator

USA
24734 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  04:45:34 AM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Stack

Colt did produce non-firing models of their Number 4 Derringer. Mine was mounted on a plaque with a Mississippi river boat gambling theme. The live firing models have a very small curved indentation on the rear of the barrel, beneath the chamber, that a spring loaded bolt, mounted in the rear of the frame, enters to prevent the barrel from moving when the derringer is in the closed position. Twisting the barrel to the right with the hammer in the half-cock notch, using hand pressure, forces the spring loaded bolt out of the barrel's indentation, allowing for loading. On the non-firing models, the indentation on the rear of the barrel is drilled deeply, without any curvature, so when the barrel is rotatated, at the factory, to the closed position, it becomes permanent, the bolt having entered deeply into the hole. There is no way to retract the bolt to open the barrel. These non-firing Colt derringers have no serial number and will have a hole on the side of the frame for mounting to the plaque. I have owned two of these non-firing Colt derringers.


Thanks for the confirmation. I once had a set of those, too.

-"SPIDER"

ALLAH KA-BAR!


GunBroker.com Moderator
The Largest Auction Gun Store Online including Pistols, Shotguns, and Rifles

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Stack
New Member

82 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  08:12:53 AM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by HOWBECK

I have a excellent condition set of Colt Lord & Lady 22 Caliber Derringers with consecutive serial numbers ending in DER. What info I can come up with is the Lord & Lady are supposed to be firing models with the Fourth Model being non-firing. Trouble is I can't get these open. Any input would be appreciated. They are in a very nice wooden case.
Thanks.


You state your Colt Number 4 derringers have serial numbers suffixed with DER, therefore they are firing derringers as the non-firing models lack a serial number. Colt derringers with DER suffixed serial numbers, production begining in 1970, are known as either the Lord or Lady derringer, the difference being the Lord derringer having a blued barrel and the Lady derringer having a gold plated barrel. Earlier 1959-1963 production of the Colt derringer was cataloged as the Fourth Model derringer and had serial number suffixes of D or N. Various finishes, for this model, were available. It should be noted that the frame and barrel, of either model, were made of pot metal. The rifled bore was integral with the pot metal barrel, no steel liner. Constant shooting will result in a smoothbore barrel. These derringer were intended more for collecting rather than for shooting.
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HOWBECK
New Member

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  09:08:50 AM  Show Profile
I really appreciate all the folks trying to help. Trouble is I have tried everything but they just will not open. Like I said the serial numbers are consecutive 4XXX7DER 4XXX8DER. They must be the non-firing models is all I can figure.
Thanks again.

H.O.Caudle
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Stack
New Member

82 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  09:40:33 AM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by HOWBECK

I really appreciate all the folks trying to help. Trouble is I have tried everything but they just will not open. Like I said the serial numbers are consecutive 4XXX7DER 4XXX8DER. They must be the non-firing models is all I can figure.
Thanks again.



Have you tried slightly loosening the bolt that the barrel pivots on? Perhaps the bolt is too tight, preventing any barrel movement. Then with the hammer on half-cock, try pivoting pivoting the rear of the barrel to the left. It will not pivot in the opposite direction. If that doesn't work, try the above with the hammer on full cock. Perhaps the hammer's firing pin is interferring with barrel movement as it would normally do in the fired position. It is the only option available. Removing the bolt doesn't allow barrel removal because of the barrel stud the bolt screws into and the lip on the bottom rear of the barrel that mates with a corresplonding slot on the frame, preventing barrel removal with the bolt removed.
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HOWBECK
New Member

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  09:46:39 AM  Show Profile
I took the large bolt completely out, tried it with the hammer on full and half cock and everything else. There is movement with the barrel but it will not pivot.
Thanks.

H.O.Caudle
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Stack
New Member

82 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  10:19:24 AM  Show Profile
It appears they are non-firing derringers, but it is surprising because they have serial numbers. You can leave them as non-firing, but if you want to have shooters, you would first have to find replacement barrels and then carefully remove the existing barrels using a hacksaw from the top of the barrel where the bolt screws in. I believe that before the hacksaw touches the frame, the barrel will be weak enough to separate into two pieces. Make sure you have the replacement barrels before you start sawing, the barrels are hard to come by.
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BigLoop22
Member

USA
577 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  10:24:58 AM  Show Profile
H.O.Caudle,

...if you have a real gun, then "twist" means twist the barrel, like these:

http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=261087638



http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=259673475





http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=260399817



Perhaps, your guns are put together from pieces of the two kinds that were offered, hence the serial numbers on non-firing guns.

BigLoop22
---------------------------------


Hunt101 Photo Complete "img" Links:


Edited by - BigLoop22 on 11/18/2011 10:33:08 AM
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mango tango
Advanced Member

USA
3180 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  10:50:17 AM  Show Profile
Sounds like they would make a good Giveaway for Christmas? Don't worry, i'll fix it when i get them!

"I didn't do it, and nobody saw me do it!
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HOWBECK
New Member

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2011 :  5:35:31 PM  Show Profile
I would like to say thanks to everyone ! Well aware how they are supposed to open. I'll leave them as is because the Blue Book list them at the same value as firing ones. Just put them up for sale.
Thanks again, Howard

H.O.Caudle
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