GunBroker.com Message Forums
Review our Posting Guidelines
GunBroker.com Message Forums
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Members | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?   Trouble / Can't log in?

 All Forums
 GunBroker.com Message Forums
 Ask the Experts
 German Mauser Model 98 ? What do I have ?
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Jagsport
New Member

89 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2012 :  5:41:06 PM  Show Profile
I have a gun that has a 98 mauser action, their are very limited markings on it. Serial W-16XX "All matching 100%" including the stock, and the Reciever says Mod 98 "only". I've looked for days and can't find anything on this gun... Please Help!! Thanks

This is all I can find on the issue - NRA Magazine 1971

Production of military Mausers was resumed in Germany during the mid 1930’s when Hitler disregarded the Versailles Treaty. During this period, Mauser produced a large quantity of Model 98k carbines for Germany and Standard-Modell Mauser short rifles for export.

Many other firms also produced the 98k and various other Mausers for the German military machine during the rearmament period and World War II.In an attempt to conceal the identity of the producers, these arms were stamped with manufacturers’ code markings instead of firm names. Number codes with a letter prefix were used first, but the letter prefix later was dropped. In 1941, the number codes were replaced by letter codes, and a further change was made in the last part of the war when a new system of letter codes was adopted. Meanings of most letter codes are given in captured German code books, but reliable records on number codes are not available and apparently were destroyed. Meanings of only a few number codes have been satisfactorily determined, and there has been considerable misinformation on the subject. The same is true of later letter codes.

rufe-snow
Advanced Member

15731 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2012 :  7:09:43 PM  Show Profile
My WAG is that you have 98 K rifle, that has the identifying manufacturers markings removed from the receiver. Please post quality photos for identification and valuation purposes.

EDIT #1, Never seen a original German military 98 K, without manufacturers marking(s) on receiver. Doubt that one could have got through the Waffen Amt inspection process, with a unmarked receiver.

Seen WW II 98 K's, without markings. Always was under the impression that this was done after 1945.


EDIT #2, According to my references, two manufacturers of 98 K rifles were supervised by the Waffen Amt inspector who used the number 26. Both were located in the Berlin area.

#A, The Mauser factory in Berlin-Borsigwalde. CODES, "S/243G, S/243, 243, and ar"

#B, The Berlin-Lubeck Machine factory. CODES, "S/237, and 237"

As I noted before, not likely that a 98 K that went through the standard Waffen Amt inspection procedure would have been passed with a unmarked receiver.


EDIT #3, The Czech VZ 24 rifle had a sling swivel mounted on the left side of the stock, just above the curved pistol grip. If this sling swivel was removed it would have been plugged with a through bolt per your description. Chances are your stock was originally on a Czech VZ 24.

Edited by - rufe-snow on 12/04/2012 8:46:38 PM
Go to Top of Page

nononsense
Moderator

8948 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2012 :  7:48:18 PM  Show Profile
Jagsport.

Have you removed the barreled action from the stock yet? There are marks usually found on both the barrel and the action unless the rifle has been 'scrubbed'.

It would be unusual for individual military rifles to have an exact traceable history because there were something like 13,000,000 produced over the war years and a substantial portion of the written records were destroyed during the invasion of Germany.

Best.



Occasionally, M98's pop up on the open market that have not received the correct proof stamps and numbers. Generally these have been suspects in what Americans refer to as 'lunch boxing' a product. Sometimes parts were removed from the factory and assembled by an enterprising employee for resale or personal use. There are also cases where parts were mixed at the factory in an effort to get something out the door without following absolute company procedures.

Somehow I think your problem could be answered with some pictures after you take the barreled action out of the stock.

Best.



Here's the list:

German Nazi Manufacturers’ Codes for the K98k
These are the manufacturers codes as applied to Mauser K98k rifles. The list
is unlikely to be complete and we would welcome additions.
A pretty comprehensive explanation of codes and other markings may be
found in Richard D Law, Backbone of the Wehrmacht, published by Collector
Grade books on the K98k rifle. Volume 1 is on the development and general
issue rifle. Volume 2 is on the Sniper Variations. The many contracts are
illustrated with detail of dating, and other inspection marks, and an indication
of quantities for the various contracts for production of the K98k rifle.
Also, although less easily obtained but thoroughly well researched and
comprehensive as far as records allow, is: Das System Adelbert Der K98k by
Albrecht Wacker, Adelbert being the name given to the manufacturers’
coding.
The manufacturer’s code was established to cover-up the manufacture of
military arms in Germany, something forbidden under the terms of the
Versailles Peace Treaty and inspected by the Inter-Allies Control
Commission. At a time when Hitler and the new Nazi administration in
Germany were breaking the re-armament limitations of the Versailles Treaty,
the codes were a means of disguising their resources.
Initially the code was a letter plus 2 or 3 numbers, e.g. S/42 for Mauser. Early
K98k production was a combination of letter/number with a date letter: e.g.
S/42K for Mauser 1934 And S/147/G for Sauer in1935, the S suffix was
dropped from 1938, e.g. 147 for J P Sauer in 1938. The scripts are normally
plain, although italicised examples are, infrequently, seen.
In 1940, it was changed to a letter coding, although confusingly, letter codes
had been used from 1937, with BSW. ERMA changed their name in 1940 to
Feinmechanische Werke GmbH, Erfurt, although they continued to use the
S/27 code right to the end of their production of K98k rifles in 1942.
Examples of double coded rifles appear from 1941, for example ax/ar for a
Feinmechanische Werke GmbH, Erfurt (ERMA) joint production with Mauser
Werke AG, Borsigwalde.
Code Makers Name Note
S/27 ERMA – Erfurter Maschinenfabrik From 1936.
S/42 Mauser Werke AG, Oberndorf a/N
S/147 J P Sauer und Sohn Gewehrfabrik, Suhl
S/237 Berlin-Lubecker Maschinenfabrik, Lubeck
S/243 Mauser Werke AG, Borsigwalde
337 Berliner-Suhler-Waffen/Gustloff Werke 1939
337 Gustloffwerke, Weimar 1940
660 Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG, Steyr From 1939
945 Waffenwerke Brunn (Brno)
a Nahmatig, Nahmaschinenteile AG, Dresden Parts
ar Mauser Werke AG, Borsigwalde
avk Ruhrstahl AG, Presswerk Brackwede b
Bielefeld
Parts
awz Wille, Eduard, Werkzeugfabrik, Hammerwerke
Wuppertal-Cronenberg
Parts
ax Feinmechanische Werke GmbH, Erfurt
(ERMA)
ayf H Geipal GmbH Waffenfabrik, Erfurt (ERMA)
Zeitenstrasse 54
Parts
bcd Gustloffwerke, Weimar
bnz Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG, Steyr
bpr Johannes Grossfuss Metall- und
Lackierwarenfabrik,Dobeln
Parts
brg HW Schmidt Metallwarenfabrik, Dobeln Parts
BSW Berliner-Suhler-Waffen und Fahrzuegwerke From 1937
byf Mauser Werke AG, Oberndorf a/N
bys Ruhrstahl AG, Gussstahlwerk itten/Ruhr Parts
ce J P Sauer und Sohn Gewehrfabrik, Suhl Italicised style
letters and
vertical (1942)
ch FN Herstal (DWM Werk Luttich) Parts
crv Fritz Werner AG Maschinen-und
Werkzeugfabrik,Werk ll Berlin
parts
cyw Sachische Gussstahlwerk Dohlen AG,
Stahlwerk Freital/Sachsen
parts
dhs Schoniger Maschinenfabrik GmbH Schonigen parts
dlv Deutsches Edelstahlwerke AG, Werke
Remscheid
parts
dot WaffenWerke Brunn AG, Brunn (Brno)
dou WaffenWerke Brunn AG, Bystrica
duv Berlin-Lubecker Maschinenfabrik, Lubeck
dwc Bome &Co, Werksleitung Ludenscheid Parts
e Hermann Kohler AG Maschinenfabrik,
Altenburg, Thul
parts
fxo C G Haelel Waffen-und Fahrradfabrik, Suhl parts
Code Makers Name Note
gba Adolf von Braucke AG, Gussstahl-Drahl-u
Seilwrke, Ihmerterback bei Westig,
Westphalen
parts
Geco Gustav Genshow & Co., Berlin parts
ghn Carl Ullrich & Co. Metallwarenfabrik,
Obershonau, Thul
parts
gqm Lock & Hartenberger Metalwarenfabrik, Idar-
Oberstein
parts
guo NV Nederlandische Maschinenfabrik Artillerie
Inrichtingen, Werk, Hembrug-Zandaam
parts
i Elite Diamantenwerk AG, Siegmar-Schonau b
Che,nitz
parts
jwh Staatliche Waffenfabrik, Chattelerault parts
K Luck & Wagner, Suhl parts
l Astrawerk AG, Chemnitz parts
LU unknown parts
lxr Dianawerk Mayer & Gammelspacher, Rastatt,
Baden
parts
m Limbacher Maschinenfabrik, Bach u Winter,
Limbach, Sachsen
parts
n Elsterwerdaer Fahrradfabrik E W Reichenbach
GmbH, Elsterwerda – Biehla
parts
o Madix Nahmaschinenteilfabrik, Alfred Keller &
Co. KG, Dresden
parts
q Julius Kohler, Limbach, Sachsen parts
qnw unknown parts
swp WaffenWerke Brunn AG, Brunn
svw Mauser Werke AG, Oberndorf a/N
unk H Menzel, Grossrohrsdorf Parts
unk Seidel & Naumann, Drsden Parts










Edited by - nononsense on 12/04/2012 7:38:34 PM
Go to Top of Page

Jagsport
New Member

89 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2012 :  8:59:57 PM  Show Profile
I am absoulutely sure the action has "NOT" been turned down or modified (scrubbed). This is not a sporter job that went bad. To your direct question I have not removed the stock but I will later this week. Thanks for both responses, has anyone ever seen a gun that does not have the "conventional" mfg marking of the reciever?
Go to Top of Page

gary wray
Advanced Member

USA
5442 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2012 :  09:43:43 AM  Show Profile
Jagsport.....good question. Why don't you post some photos of the Mauser and let us help you look? Lots of Mauser experts here but without photos....can't help much.

harperwv
Go to Top of Page

Jagsport
New Member

89 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2012 :  8:36:04 PM  Show Profile
I will post some photos before next Sunday ...Need time to take it down. If I do it now..LOL I will not have time to photo and submit in one evening ..Thanks I will post for sure
Go to Top of Page

Jagsport
New Member

89 Posts

Posted - 12/03/2012 :  8:41:07 PM  Show Profile
Mr. Rufe - Snow... I was hoping that a confiirmation on the attached 1971 NRA article in my orginal post would be validated by an expert. I say this becuase I has a suffix letter all matching gun. It made some sense to me that as Germany attempted to build out of the WW1 restriction on arament - they would try to develop (Sterile) non-ID weapons for export or internal use ? Thanks again
Go to Top of Page

TRAP55
Advanced Member

USA
6325 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2012 :  12:24:14 AM  Show Profile
The "W" prefix in the serial number indicates a Spanish made Mauser 98 action, usually a M43 or M44.
All Mausers produced in Germany had a receiver ring marking of some kind, either the Mauser Banner, or letter/number, or letter code.
Polish Mausers sold to Spain for the civil war have the receiver rings "scrubbed", some of those were WWI 98's reworked in Poland. Without a micrometer, you wouldn't be able to tell if it had been scrubbed.
But it's still a guessing game without pics.
BTW....that NRA article is outdated, the code stamps have been ID'ed.


"Aim small, Miss small"
www.mausercentral.com

Edited by - TRAP55 on 12/04/2012 12:25:44 AM
Go to Top of Page

Jagsport
New Member

89 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2012 :  7:23:41 PM  Show Profile
I took the gun apart last night....there is a waffen eagle26 proof on the barrel. A number 43 (assuume 1943) is located on the barrel just past the reciever (bottomw. The front sight after more carefull examination upon cleaning the cosmoline away has 3 waffen eagle proof marks. There is a number 8 just THERE ...under the barrel , no rythmm or reason I can conclude (I do not think is was a 8 designating 8mm) but what the heck do I know ?
I will post photos ASAP - Thank you again
Go to Top of Page

Jagsport
New Member

89 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2012 :  7:27:28 PM  Show Profile
Sir (Trapp55) can you point me to the "code ID information " on-line ?.... that have been discovered since the out of date info in my first post was published ?
Go to Top of Page

Jagsport
New Member

89 Posts

Posted - 12/04/2012 :  7:55:24 PM  Show Profile
I just check the O.D. of the reciever front end ....It is .040" less than the German BYF that my friend has...so as they say "Whoops there it is" I can see that the reciver has been turned down. The stock also has a second cross bolt down by the grip, this added cross bolt (although I cannot see what it is for ) is different than the true 100% German design.

I paid $350 really nice shape. Do you think I over paided ? I hope that action remains shootable in this condition?
Thanks
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
GunBroker.com Message Forums © 1999-2014 GB Investments, Inc. All Rights Reserved Go To Top Of Page
Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.06


Visit GunBroker.com at: www.gunbroker.com
Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of the site's User Agreement
Site Map