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JohnT
Junior Member

USA
407 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  05:20:45 AM  Show Profile
In its original configuration, the pistol can be detail stripped and
reassembled with its own parts.

The sear and hammer pins aren't supposed to be flush with the frame.
They should stand proud by .003 inch so as to provide support for the
thumb safety...both to prevent marring and reduce friction. The slidestop crosspin should have a small fillet at the junction of the pin and the arm for the same reasons.

The disconnect is also a connector that fills the gap between the
trigger and the sear. The trigger never touches the sear.

The thumb safety doesn't lock or block the hammer. It only blocks sear movement. If the sear should instantaneously disintegrate, the hammer will fall, and it'll wipe the safety off faster than it can be done
manually.

Browning had a penchant for designing a part to perform multiple functions. The slidestop alone has five. It's a slidestop. It's a slide lock. It's a slide release. It's a camming surface for the lower lug to push the barrel up into the slide. It's an anchor for the link to draw the barrel out of the slide.

The original captive half cock notch is a safety. Says so right there in the 1910 patents...before the thumb safety was added. It
also serves as a hammer arrest in the event of failed hammer hooks.

The grip safety has a built-in trigger overtravel stop.

The grip safety was and is a drop safety.

The thumb safety...aka "Slide locking manual safety"...was added
on the request of the US Cavalry,and it didn't have anything to do
with carrying the gun cocked and locked. It was for temporary reholstering when a mounted trooper found himself trying to hang onto a frightened, unruly horse. The "locked" part of cocked and locked refers to the slide...not the lockwork. It prevented the slide being pushed out of battery during the hasty reholstering, and possibly not returning when re-drawn...which would be a bad thing under fire.

Neither the grip safety nor the manual safety were Browning's ideas.
Those were requested by the US Army. The grip safety was tacked onto
a few 1905s and incorporated into the design on the 1907. It reappeared on the Models 1909 and 1910...and again on what was to become the Model of 1911, along with the thumb safety...the final modification before it was adopted.

The original grip screws were sized to allow the use of a case rim for removal. The bottoms of the slots were dished to give the rim a better purchase.

The original hammer strut served as a punch and slave pin for removing
and installing hammer and the sear pins.

The extractor claw also served as a scrape for removing dirt and mud from the slide and frame rails...assuming proper dimensions.

The original left-side grip panel pressed against against
the plunger tube from the bottom, providing support...and it pressed against it from the side, so in the unlikely event of a properly staked tube loosening...it wouldn't move outward and disable the pistol.

The pistol was also a well-thought out survival tool:

The original oiled walnut grips could be scraped to provide tinder for
starting a fire. Or...completely removed without compromising it's function as a weapon. The slide becomes a hammer for distorting a bullet for removal from the case so that the powder could be used to start a fire.

A fired case can be used in the event of a lost recoil spring plug.

The spring plug had a punch cut for threading onto the open end of
the recoil spring to reduce the chances of getting lost. Likewise, the spring closed end was crimped to fit tightly on the spring guide so that if the plug slipped during disassembly, it would stay in the pistol.

The original pinned magazine baseplates...after removing the spring...could be heated on a fire and used to cauterize a wound. The toe of the baseplate could be sharpened for use as a crude cutting tool.

In the case of a disabled pistol, the slide can be removed and the ends of the spring tunnel sharpened for use as a striking weapon. The rear sight was likewise a wicked skull pommel.

The lanyard loop functions as a bottle opener.

Locked breech/recoil operated:

The "recoil" spring's function is returning the slide to battery.
Whatever else it does is incidental. It has nothing to do with
timing or pressure, and it has very little to do with slide delay.
In fact...if a full-length guide rod and plug is used to keep everything tracking straight...the pistol can be fired without a spring and nothing changes other than having to return the slide to battery manually. I've demonstrated this by firing a Colt LW Commander repeatedly with no spring, without damage.

There's more, but this is getting a bit long.

Oh! Almost forgot. To settle a previous argument...the .45 Auto cartridge, like all other straight-walled, rimless pistol cases, headspaces on the case mouth...not on the extractor. This, of course, assumes that the barrel chamber is within spec...or that some fool hasn't reamed the chamber shoulder too deep.

Headspace is:

The difference bettween the static dimension, determined by the linear
distance from the breechface and the chamber stop shoulder with the pistolin battery...and the length of the case...or the dynamic headspace.

The static dimension only changes through wear or damage, while the dynamic changes with every round fired unless all cases are precisely the same length.

With the minumum ordnance static headspace dimension of .898 inch, and a case .888 inch long...the headspace is .010 inch. If the next round has a case length of .885 inch...the headspace is .013 inch.

















Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

-Your faithful dog-

tsr1965
Advanced Member

USA
7083 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  06:37:40 AM  Show Profile
That is very interesting reading there. However, I don't see what your question might be. Usually one posts a question here, that warrants an answer. This might be better, moved to the General Discussion Forum.

Best

EDIT 1
quote:
It was as much to answer a question...or rather to settle an argument...that I saw here a couple weeks ago on headspacing on the extractor.


I have to believe that I was part of that argument. That is a true statement in your information, as it pertains to auto pistols. However, in the case of some revolvers, that are specifically made with moon clips, this might not apply. Like, if there were ever a 9x23 revolver, it could safely fire 9x19, 9x18, and most likely 9mm Kurtz(380), of course the 10mm, and 40 S&W would also apply to this rule.

Best

Take a look at these auctions on the otherside...
http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/BrowseItems.aspx?IncludeSellers=484399


Edited by - tsr1965 on 02/26/2013 08:51:38 AM
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JohnT
Junior Member

USA
407 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  07:03:28 AM  Show Profile
Maybe so. It was as much to answer a question...or rather to settle an argument...that I saw here a couple weeks ago on headspacing on the extractor. I also thought that it might provoke a few questions.
A way to sorta open the door. If the Admin wants to move it to GD, I ain't gotta problem with it.

Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

-Your faithful dog-
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perry shooter
Advanced Member

13674 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  07:32:08 AM  Show Profile
Ok John T I am glad to see your write up . I have been shooting and collecting 1911 type colts for many years I need to re-read your post as I did not see one item mentioned The three leaf spring has one lesf with a turned over tip. this tipe can be used to remove the magazine release from the frame."PRAISE THE HARD-BALL GUN"

Edited by - perry shooter on 02/26/2013 3:04:58 PM
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forgemonkey
Advanced Member

USA
11944 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  07:38:12 AM  Show Profile
Excellent Post,!!!!
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JohnT
Junior Member

USA
407 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  07:40:17 AM  Show Profile
Perry Shooter...Yep. I figured that sooner or later, somebody will ask for a break down of the pistol being its own toolbox, and how to strip it that way.

Hint:

The thumb safety...in its original configuration...is the key that opens the box.

Standin' by.

Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

-Your faithful dog-
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beantownshootah
Advanced Member

USA
13046 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  12:47:08 PM  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
The original pinned magazine baseplates...after removing the spring...could be heated on a fire and used to cauterize a wound. The toe of the baseplate could be sharpened for use as a crude cutting tool.


You know all that first bit really had me riveted, but I think we're starting to get a little into cuckoo-land here.

You're telling me the magazine baseplate was designed with the intent of being used as a knife or to cauterize wounds? (Rolls eyes). You can use ANY heated metallic object to cauterize wounds, including (if you had to) a flattened spent cartridge. Any flat metal surface "can" become an improvised cutting tool if you sharpen it on a rough surface (ie a rock).

quote:
In the case of a disabled pistol, the slide can be removed and the ends of the spring tunnel sharpened for use as a striking weapon. The rear sight was likewise a wicked skull pommel.


A pointy rock is also a "wicked skull pommel". Just because you "can" do this to your gun, doesn't mean its a good idea or that Browning actually intended you to.

quote:
The lanyard loop functions as a bottle opener.

In all honesty, I don't think so. See here:



You could probably use the magWELL to pry off a bottle cap, but then again, you could also probably use your field knife or any other number of other tools to do this (again, including a rock).

Now in fact, the Israeli Galil Rifle was designed on purpose to have a bottle cap opener built into the bipod. The reason was that the designers figured it would be better to have one built into the gun, than have thirsty yob Israeli soldiers ruining magazines or other parts of the gun for this purpose.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW83gi7DFX8


Edit:
quote:
I think that you're confusing "Can be" with "Meant to be." I never implied that all these things were part of the designer's intent.

In fact, I think you did imply that right here:
quote:

The pistol was also a well-thought out survival tool:



The term "thought out" implies design.

Anyway, yes, I suppose if you partly eject the magazine you could probably pry with it against the lanyard ring to squeeze off a bottlecap.

"Unfortunately", since very few 1911s actually come with lanyard rings anymore, this trick is probably more theoretical than practical. Needless to say I'm not using my WWI vintage 1911 with original lanyard loop as a bottle opener, and if I'm fortunate enough to have some $2000 21st century "tactical" model with a lanyard loop, I'm probably not using it for that purpose either!


Many years ago, a friend of mine got lost in Colorado while on an Elk hunt. They found him 3 days later, dead from hypothermia. All his emergency matches were used up in an unsuccessful attempt to start a fire. Along with several items in his backpack, was a full box of .30-06 ammunition...each containing about 50 grains of slow burning smokeless powder. He died because it never occurred to him to break open a few rounds and use that powder to start his fire.

That's presumptive. Maybe his already set in confusion/hyperthermia/dehydration is what prevented him from using his emergency matches correctly to begin with. Maybe he just didn't know how to start a fire from tinder and kindling, or didn't have any. In other words, even knowing about the trick you suggest may not have saved him. IE, if he couldn't get a fire started with actual matches, why would he have been able to do it with gunpowder?

Anyway, since you bring this up, it is an old trick. In addition to just pouring out the powder and using it as an accelerant to help start a fire (eg starting it with a match or sparks from a flint, etc), I've heard of another method.

Never tried it, but reportedly you can pull out the bullet, then replace it with a small dry cloth patch (like a cleaning patch). Then when you fire the gun, the patch will come out burning, followed by a small blast of burning gunpowder. That's the theory, anyway.

Here's how you DON'T want to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzwKnyDR5KA

Edited by - beantownshootah on 02/26/2013 4:21:58 PM
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Herschel
Senior Member

2015 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  1:17:36 PM  Show Profile
JohnT, Your original post in the thread concerning the design of the 1911 is very interesting and useful information. It may not be posted in the most correct forum but "so what". Some of the suggestions as to how the 1911 parts "could" be used seems to go beyond the design topic. Overall, I enjoyed your post and found it useful enough that I intend to copy and save it for future reference.
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JohnT
Junior Member

USA
407 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  1:44:45 PM  Show Profile
quote:
You know all that first bit really had me riveted, but I think we're starting to get a little into cuckoo-land here.


I think that you're confusing "Can be" with "Meant to be." I never implied that all these things were part of the designer's intent.

And it's pretty common knowledge that the lanyard loop mounted on the mainspring housing is a nifty bottle opener. Drop the magazine part-way out and have at it. You'll probably figure it out eventually.

Incidentally, the frame spring tunnel can also be used with the slide locked to the rear.

Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

-Your faithful dog-
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JohnT
Junior Member

USA
407 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  2:50:28 PM  Show Profile
Many of the points in the top post are things that the average 1911 owner will never need...but it's nice to have them in our box of tricks.

Studying the different features of the gun has caused a few of the things that...while not lilely part of the designer's intent...are handy to know in the event of an emergency. Things that aren't considered beforehand.

A perfect example came from a tregedy.

Many years ago, a friend of mine got lost in Colorado while on an Elk hunt. They found him 3 days later, dead from hypothermia. All his emergency matches were used up in an unsuccessful attempt to start a fire. Along with several items in his backpack, was a full box of .30-06 ammunition...each containing about 50 grains of slow burning smokeless powder. He died because it never occurred to him to break open a few rounds and use that powder to start his fire.

Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

-Your faithful dog-
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JohnT
Junior Member

USA
407 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  2:51:49 PM  Show Profile
'Scuse the typos in the previous post, please. Sticky keys and haste are my burden to bear.

Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

-Your faithful dog-
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JohnT
Junior Member

USA
407 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  3:15:32 PM  Show Profile
quote:
I have to believe that I was part of that argument. That is a true statement in your information, as it pertains to auto pistols. However, in the case of some revolvers, that are specifically made with moon clips, this might not apply. Like, if there were ever a 9x23 revolver, it could safely fire 9x19, 9x18, and most likely 9mm Kurtz(380), of course the 10mm, and 40 S&W would also apply to this rule.


Revolvers like the Model 1917 Smiths and Colts that used half-moon clips headspaced on the clips because there was no rim to headspace from. The clips were used to create a rim.

Interestingly, the Smiths' chambers also had a stop shoulder so that in the event of a lost clip, the rimless ammunition would still headspace and fire. The Colts didn't include that feature.

Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

-Your faithful dog-
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JohnT
Junior Member

USA
407 Posts

Posted - 02/26/2013 :  4:43:56 PM  Show Profile
quote:
The term "thought out" implies design.


Well, there were a few of those things that were part of the intent. There isn't much on the pistol that was coincidental, and even the points that were is a matter of thinking it through to see what can be done...and what function that can be served.

quote:
That's presumptive. Maybe his already set in confusion/hyperthermia/dehydration is what prevented him from using his emergency matches correctly to begin with.


I doubt that somehow. It wasn't exactly his first trip to the circus, and he was an experienced outdoorsman. When he realized that he was lost with nightfall coming, he'd have conserved his water and energy. He erected a shelter, but a light drizzle had made dry tinder hard to find. The intense heat from smokeless powder probably would have lit the damp twigs.

But the point was that some things aren't obvious until they're pointed out. You either missed that, or you just want to nit-pick.
So, have at it.



quote:
"Unfortunately", since very few 1911s actually come with lanyard rings anymore, this trick is probably more theoretical than practical. Needless to say I'm not using my WWI vintage 1911 with original lanyard loop as a bottle opener, and if I'm fortunate enough to have some $2000 21st century "tactical" model with a lanyard loop, I'm probably not using it for that purpose either!


And again, the name of the thread was "Interesting Stuff" and that it was a function that some may not know about. Something that you may never need or use...but interesting all the same for 1911 history buffs. A lot like the no-tool detail strip. Trivia. Nothing more...and the lanyard loop absolutely will pop off a bottle cap. I've done it many times...and it won't hurt the gun at all.

Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

-Your faithful dog-
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