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 Savage Arms is in Hot Water
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p3skyking
Advanced Member

USA
24023 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  1:09:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Let's hope they don't take a bath.
Smokeless powder in a black powder rifle is nothing to play with.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gun-makers-exploding-rifle-leaves-183639208.html

A man who says he has never been scared is either lying or else he's never been anywhere or done anything
Sackett


A man who has not known many women cannot appreciate the value of one. The Walking Drum

A man's success he can share with others, his troubles are his own. Comstock Lode

A ship does not sail with yesterdays wind. The Walking Drum


Rocky Raab
Advanced Member

USA
7707 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  1:20:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As we discussed when this was posted yesterday, Savage was insane to sell this rifle. But their defense is that they have no responsibility when people disregard clearly written safety warnings.
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Flying Clay Disk
Advanced Member

USA
31153 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  1:22:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Saw this story the other day. Yep, some bad ju-ju for sure.

The minute I heard about smoke poles using smokeless powder I knew this was gonna' happen. Just seem way too dangerous to me.

I know a couple guys who are let's just say 'not the sharpest tools in the shed' and they all rave about getting one. One of them wanted me to show him how to reload (and I did...he 'sort of' got it). Let's just say I'm not going to be in the same county as him if he ever gets one of those.

"See that one shell there with powder overflowing out of the case?"

"Yeah"

"Ummm...that's bad...like real bad!!! Means a double charge."

"Okay, well can we just dump some out??"

"Uhhhhhh, yea-NO! Dump it ALL out and do it again!"

"That's a hassle, I'd prolly just dump some out"

"Not with me you won't!!"


FCD

"Fortes et liber"

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35 Whelen
Advanced Member

USA
13443 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  1:36:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Flying Clay Disk

Saw this story the other day. Yep, some bad ju-ju for sure.

The minute I heard about smoke poles using smokeless powder I knew this was gonna' happen. Just seem way too dangerous to me.

I know a couple guys who are let's just say 'not the sharpest tools in the shed' and they all rave about getting one. One of them wanted me to show him how to reload (and I did...he 'sort of' got it). Let's just say I'm not going to be in the same county as him if he ever gets one of those.

"See that one shell there with powder overflowing out of the case?"

"Yeah"

"Ummm...that's bad...like real bad!!! Means a double charge."

"Okay, well can we just dump some out??"

"Uhhhhhh, yea-NO! Dump it ALL out and do it again!"

"That's a hassle, I'd prolly just dump some out"

"Not with me you won't!!"







I think there's a lot more to that than people realize, when it comes to Savage MLs blowing up, especially the people injured. Out of all of them, I can't help but wonder how many of them would admit to using either the wrong powder, or simply too much of it?

"Well, all I had was a can of Red Dot".
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medic07
Advanced Member

USA
4883 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  1:43:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If it can be proven that Savage was aware or had a reasonable cause to check for a flaw in the metallurgy of their barrels and failed to act on this, they will pay heavily for it.

I would think that would have been one of the first things checked when more than one report came to light.

I like Savage Arms and hope this will not be a hard blow for them.

I mean to kill you in one minute, Ned. Or see you hanged in Fort Smith at Judge Parker's convenience. Which'll it be?
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Rocky Raab
Advanced Member

USA
7707 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  1:44:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I will never forget the numnutz who wanted to buy a can of Bullseye for his .30-06, because "Bullseye is the fastest powder, and I want the fastest .30-06." I declined to sell him anything at all.
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allen griggs
Advanced Member

USA
31517 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  1:46:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I bought one ten years ago. Great rifle, very accurate. Killed 3 deer with it.
I live way out in the country. One thing I loved about it, I could fire off a couple of shots from the porch and not have to clean it.

Well, one day I was firing a shot from the porch, and forgot to remove the ramrod. Damn, did that have a kick! I was just shooting out into the woods at a tree, never did find that ramrod.
I could not feel any bulge in the barrel, but I was afraid that the barrel was ruined so I didn't fire it again.

I don't know what to make about these stories about the Savage blowing up. I certainly stressed mine to the max and it didn't blow. Thank God.

It would certainly be easy to load up the wrong powder, or, too much powder, and blow the thing up.
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select-fire
Advanced Member

54426 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  1:51:31 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by allen griggs

I bought one ten years ago. Great rifle, very accurate. Killed 3 deer with it.
I live way out in the country. One thing I loved about it, I could fire off a couple of shots from the porch and not have to clean it.

Well, one day I was firing a shot from the porch, and forgot to remove the ramrod. Damn, did that have a kick! I was just shooting out into the woods at a tree, never did find that ramrod.
I could not feel any bulge in the barrel, but I was afraid that the barrel was ruined so I didn't fire it again.

I don't know what to make about these stories about the Savage blowing up. I certainly stressed mine to the max and it didn't blow. Thank God.

It would certainly be easy to load up the wrong powder, or, too much powder, and blow the thing up.



Savage lawyers would love for you to testify.
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p3skyking
Advanced Member

USA
24023 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  2:01:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by allen griggs

I bought one ten years ago. Great rifle, very accurate. Killed 3 deer with it.
I live way out in the country. One thing I loved about it, I could fire off a couple of shots from the porch and not have to clean it.

Well, one day I was firing a shot from the porch, and forgot to remove the ramrod. Damn, did that have a kick! I was just shooting out into the woods at a tree, never did find that ramrod.
I could not feel any bulge in the barrel, but I was afraid that the barrel was ruined so I didn't fire it again.

I don't know what to make about these stories about the Savage blowing up. I certainly stressed mine to the max and it didn't blow. Thank God.

It would certainly be easy to load up the wrong powder, or, too much powder, and blow the thing up.



You could tell if the barrel was bulged by simply loading a slug in it and pulling it back out. The resistance should be the same the whole length of the barrel. If not, you have a compression or an oversized portion of barrel.

A man who says he has never been scared is either lying or else he's never been anywhere or done anything
Sackett


A man who has not known many women cannot appreciate the value of one. The Walking Drum

A man's success he can share with others, his troubles are his own. Comstock Lode

A ship does not sail with yesterdays wind. The Walking Drum


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Big Sky Redneck
Advanced Member

Kuwait
16143 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  2:13:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can’t wrap my head around smokeless muzzleloaders. When loading cartridges there are so many things that raise pressure, 1/4g of powder, mixing powders, bullet depth and so on. How can you load a muzzleloader to an exact load safely each and every time? I blew up a Remington 700 once, locked the bolt up tight all because I misread the manual, I overloaded by 1g and one shot locked the gun up. Smokless powder needs to be exact.
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westernMDhunter
Advanced Member

Iceland
3223 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  2:23:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by p3skyking

Let's hope they don't take a bath.
Smokeless powder in a black powder rifle is nothing to play with.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/gun-makers-exploding-rifle-leaves-183639208.html



It's not a black powder rifle it is a smokeless muzzleloader. Designed, tested and manufactured to safely shoot the book recommended loads of smokeless powder. There is always going to be people who don't pay attention and accidents are going to happen. Too many people are sue happy nowadays and are not going to hurt their pride by admitting they exceeded the recommended loads or forgot after last season that they left their muzzleloader loaded and load another charge of powder and bullet on top of the other. Hopefully Savage can provide proof of a gun being double loaded but can see how it would be difficult to prove they used too much powder. There are lots of these muzzleloaders around, myself , my family and many friends all shoot these guns and consider them great muzzleloaders. The gun itself sparked my interest in converting mine and my fathers Remington 700 muzzleloaders into .45 caliber smokeless muzzleloaders. Pac-Nor, Brux, McGowen to name a few are all building barrels to convert Encores, Remington 700 ML, numerous centerfire rifles and muzzleloaders to shoot smokeless powder safely in a muzzleloading platform. The smokeless muzzleloader is here to stay and the number of them is growing rapidly.

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KX500
Member

515 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  2:23:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A smokeless muzzleloader is awesome - can't imagine going back to using the 'dirty' powder. I'm on my 4 th or 5th pound of powder thru mine. I do follow Savages recommended practices - I would bet in every one of these lawsuits, the gun owner did not.

You know Savage did a lot of destructive testing prior to selling these guns. As with any gun, you can blow one up, but certainly not by going a grain or 2 of powder over max load.

You can't fix stupid, but you sure can sue anyway!
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wpageabc
Advanced Member

USA
5203 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  2:28:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Savage Arms has been around a long time and has a legal dept that knows how to write a manual with disclaimers. Certainly they will have this coverd...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u99Q7pNAjvg
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Brookwood
Advanced Member

USA
3040 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  2:41:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have been an avid traditional muzzle loader builder\shooter\collector for many years. Strictly only use real black powder.

I have been interrupted a time or two while loading a rifle, usually having a conversation with a fellow shooter or being asked questions from a novice who is learning about shooting muzzle loading rifles.

These are the times when mistakes happen and I will admit I have dry balled a time or two but have been lucky not to have double loaded or short started a load. But I have seen it done by others.

I make it a point when loading to never let distractions interrupt the process. I remain quiet until the job is done then speak to whoever is talking to me.

I can easily see where someone using this modern rifle with smokeless powder could screw up and the results can be catastrophic!
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SCOUT5
Advanced Member

11516 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  3:45:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Big Sky Redneck

I can’t wrap my head around smokeless muzzleloaders. When loading cartridges there are so many things that raise pressure, 1/4g of powder, mixing powders, bullet depth and so on. How can you load a muzzleloader to an exact load safely each and every time? I blew up a Remington 700 once, locked the bolt up tight all because I misread the manual, I overloaded by 1g and one shot locked the gun up. Smokless powder needs to be exact.



The load data is way below maximum. What you are talking about is when you are operating with max loads. If you areloading your rifle cartridges at 20% below max you have to make a huge mistake to get in trouble. If you are loading at max a small mistake makes you pay.

You weigh your charges ahead of time and store each charge in it's own tube. If you mess up while loading it will only be because you spilled some powder, not because you added extra. Unless, of course, you go brain dead and dump in 2 tubes. The boys blowing these up have got to be making big mistakes or purposely pushing for maximum.
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1422 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  4:44:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A hot cup of coffee in the crotch lawyer for the shooter.

and

smokeless powder in one of those guns being loaded by idiots is asking for a lawsuit.

I keep thinking (hoping) that the medical profession can find a non-prescription medicine or a vaccination they can give to idiots to cure or reduce the effects of stupidity.

I'm thinking this shooter might have a future in politics.

Arkie

Edited by - Okie743 on 12/07/2017 4:46:08 PM
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Big Sky Redneck
Advanced Member

Kuwait
16143 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  4:54:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SCOUT5

quote:
Originally posted by Big Sky Redneck

I can’t wrap my head around smokeless muzzleloaders. When loading cartridges there are so many things that raise pressure, 1/4g of powder, mixing powders, bullet depth and so on. How can you load a muzzleloader to an exact load safely each and every time? I blew up a Remington 700 once, locked the bolt up tight all because I misread the manual, I overloaded by 1g and one shot locked the gun up. Smokless powder needs to be exact.



The load data is way below maximum. What you are talking about is when you are operating with max loads. If you areloading your rifle cartridges at 20% below max you have to make a huge mistake to get in trouble. If you are loading at max a small mistake makes you pay.

You weigh your charges ahead of time and store each charge in it's own tube. If you mess up while loading it will only be because you spilled some powder, not because you added extra. Unless, of course, you go brain dead and dump in 2 tubes. The boys blowing these up have got to be making big mistakes or purposely pushing for maximum.



I can only sit and think about how many times I had to dump and repour stick powders because the charge was not exact, or seating a bullet to deep or not deep enough caused problems.

Black powder is forgiving (and smells good) and mistakes for the most part are harmless only causing a lousy shot.

Maybe it is because I never reloaded bulk but focused on accuracy where every single step had to be 100% perfect. Playing games with smokeless powder scares me. That gun I locked up and got powder burns in the face was only 3G over max due to me misreading load data.
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SCOUT5
Advanced Member

11516 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  5:00:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Big Sky Redneck

quote:
Originally posted by SCOUT5

quote:
Originally posted by Big Sky Redneck

I can’t wrap my head around smokeless muzzleloaders. When loading cartridges there are so many things that raise pressure, 1/4g of powder, mixing powders, bullet depth and so on. How can you load a muzzleloader to an exact load safely each and every time? I blew up a Remington 700 once, locked the bolt up tight all because I misread the manual, I overloaded by 1g and one shot locked the gun up. Smokless powder needs to be exact.



The load data is way below maximum. What you are talking about is when you are operating with max loads. If you areloading your rifle cartridges at 20% below max you have to make a huge mistake to get in trouble. If you are loading at max a small mistake makes you pay.

You weigh your charges ahead of time and store each charge in it's own tube. If you mess up while loading it will only be because you spilled some powder, not because you added extra. Unless, of course, you go brain dead and dump in 2 tubes. The boys blowing these up have got to be making big mistakes or purposely pushing for maximum.



I can only sit and think about how many times I had to dump and repour stick powders because the charge was not exact, or seating a bullet to deep or not deep enough caused problems.

Black powder is forgiving (and smells good) and mistakes for the most part are harmless only causing a lousy shot.

Maybe it is because I never reloaded bulk but focused on accuracy where every single step had to be 100% perfect. Playing games with smokeless powder scares me. That gun I locked up and got powder burns in the face was only 3G over max due to me misreading load data.



Yes, a man has to operate within his comfort measures.

It's not a Savage, but I recently got a smokeless muzzle loader. I'm just going to operate at moderate loads. I have no intention to pushing the top end.
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mogley98
Advanced Member

USA
13324 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  5:13:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the barrel is really defective the people who got blowed up ought to be made whole.

If they screwed up shame on them.

Someone at Savage knows if they have a steel issue but the ease of screwing up with smokeless powder sure could make one think that is more of the issue then the barrel.
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Big Sky Redneck
Advanced Member

Kuwait
16143 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  5:39:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mogley98

If the barrel is really defective the people who got blowed up ought to be made whole.

If they screwed up shame on them.

Someone at Savage knows if they have a steel issue but the ease of screwing up with smokeless powder sure could make one think that is more of the issue then the barrel.



If you reload and have books you will notice over the years max data has been lowered, not because 4350 is more potent but because of liability. Even factory ammo maintains pressures well below max because not every gun is the same, they want thier ammo safe in a 40 year old gun and safe in a brand new one.

While I will never own a smokeless muzzleloader I don’t see where Savage would be as reckless to put out a gun that cannot handle common pressure errors. But we all know some folks really need to stick to factory arms and factory ammo and for some the ammo needs to be color coded to the guns. People stick wrong ammo in guns all the time, people ignore load data all the time, people don’t pay attention to details, some people really shouldn’t play with dangerous tools.
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bigoutside
Advanced Member

South Sandwich Islands
18224 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  6:19:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A different angle.

If it is a firearm, no one is going to win a lawsuit. They are exempt from product liability.

BUT, is it a firearm? They are screwed if it isn’t.


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allen griggs
Advanced Member

USA
31517 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  6:23:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Legally it is a muzzleloader not a modern firearm.
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KX500
Member

515 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  6:27:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
'common pressure errors'

This certainly means different things with muzzleloaders vrs. hand loading.

I would say the 3 most 'common pressure errors' with a muzzleloader would be 1) no powder 2) loaded twice & 3) ramrod left in barrel (I know, I know, but you read about it all the time).

Going a few grains of powder over the Savage recommended loads will not blow the gun up. Years ago, when I was working up to the most accurate loads in mine, I think I got as high as 48 grains of 4759 while I believe Savage didn't recommend anything past 45 grains (and they were right, 45 grains was the sweet spot - anything more just left unburnt powder in the barrel). I did do a fair amount of research before I exceeded what Savage said. You don't have to look very hard on the big ole internet to find forums that are devoted to smokeless muzzleloaders. Some of the loads these guys come up with probably are pushing the real limits - pretty sure I never got close, I don't love recoil.

Anyway, I have no fear of my Savage & would bet all these issues go back to double loading or way too much of the wrong powder.
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carbine100
Advanced Member

USA
2846 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2017 :  7:00:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the errors are people who don't reload and have no clue as to the issues that can and will happen if you don't follow directions precisely.

Modern steel almost can't be blown up with black powder, too slow. One of the manufacturers tapped the muzzle on their gun and filled if completely full of black powder and screwed in the muzzle plug. Put it on a tire and ran a string to the trigger. All that pressure came out the cap nipple without bulging the barrel.

Smokeless powder, not so much.

Still, I trust my Savage and my attention to detail. I also only shoot my own reloads.


Don't re-elect anybody, not even your mother!
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BoltactionMan
Senior Member

1701 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2017 :  08:32:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A few years ago, I got my hands on some court documents regarding the initial law suit. There was testimony in there by a metallurgist about the mix in the stainless barrels. It seems they all split where the screw holes are drilled for the rear sight. It is only the stainless guns that blow and they blow at the sight which is pretty far down the barrel, meaning the pressure peak would be well past given the volume of space for the gas to expand into.

I usually think "some idiot double charged, blah blah" as well but this kind of struck a nerve. My friends have that model and I am constantly on them to be careful. Mine is a blued barrel and don't seem to have the issue. I think the problem is a possible poorly seated projectile more than powder charge.

That said, I weigh out all of our charges, we put them in empty .308 or .30-06 cases and put a rubber cap over the case mouth. Pull the cap, dump the charge, seat the bullet, primer in the slot and go.

KC

”The philosophy of gun control: Teenagers are roaring through town at 90MPH, where the speed limit is 25. Your solution is to lower the speed limit to 20.”
~Sam Cohen (inventor of the neutron bomb)
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iceracerx
Advanced Member

USA
8058 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2017 :  09:47:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Big Sky Redneck

I can’t wrap my head around smokeless muzzleloaders. When loading cartridges there are so many things that raise pressure, 1/4g of powder, mixing powders, bullet depth and so on. How can you load a muzzleloader to an exact load safely each and every time? I blew up a Remington 700 once, locked the bolt up tight all because I misread the manual, I overloaded by 1g and one shot locked the gun up. Smokless powder needs to be exact.



And here, ladies and gentlemen, is a perfect example of a simple mistake that can lead to destruction.

I'd bet that BSR knows that 'grains' are the units of measure for modern small arms cartridges. Yet, he used 'g' as an abbreviation for grains when the actual abbreviation for 'grains' is 'gr'. Small 'g' is the abbreviation for GRAMS.

Oh, and Blackpowder is actually an 'explosive' and isn't safer than 'smokeless' powder.

So, to hi-jack the topic completely, what is the difference between an 'explosion' and 'combustion'?

Edited by - iceracerx on 12/08/2017 10:06:14 AM
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kannoneer
Senior Member

USA
1909 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2017 :  10:17:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The only pressure problem I ever encountered was with a cheap CVA inline .50 using pyrodex. We had been plagued with hang or misfires so we would remove the nipple and dribble in a dash of pyrodex and then reseat the nipple. This seemed to be a satisfactory cure for the problem.....until we had the nipple blow out and lightly injure the shooter.
The charge was 60 grains of pyrodex RS so that wasn't the issue. My brother-in-law had the same thing happen with his CVA inline, resulting in a trip to the hospital to have cap fragments removed from his eye. I welded the nipple in and have had no more problems, except for frequent hang or misfires. I haven't shot the gun for 15 years or more; might make a good GB giveaway?
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1422 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2017 :  10:21:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyone hear any rumors why Savage stopped offering or producing the smokeless powder muzzleloaders for few years???

I suspected it was due to the lawsuits, etc, but not sure.
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1422 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2017 :  10:31:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kannoneer

The only pressure problem I ever encountered was with a cheap CVA inline .50 using pyrodex. We had been plagued with hang or misfires so we would remove the nipple and dribble in a dash of pyrodex and then reseat the nipple. This seemed to be a satisfactory cure for the problem.....until we had the nipple blow out and lightly injure the shooter.
The charge was 60 grains of pyrodex RS so that wasn't the issue. My brother-in-law had the same thing happen with his CVA inline, resulting in a trip to the hospital to have cap fragments removed from his eye. I welded the nipple in and have had no more problems, except for frequent hang or misfires. I haven't shot the gun for 15 years or more; might make a good GB giveaway?



You might make this nipple weld in suggestion to CVA so as to make their guns safer.

Also most BP makers have in their instruction manuals to ALWAYS wear safety glasses when firing a BP gun so as to cover their behind.

I cannot bring myself to pull the trigger on any BP gun without wearing eye protection and I have some of the latest model in-lines, but no smokeless powder BP models and I've been reloading smokeless centerfire guns for years..
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Okie743
Senior Member

USA
1422 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2017 :  10:50:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anyone hear any rumors why Savage stopped offering or producing the smokeless powder muzzleloaders for few years???
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KX500
Member

515 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2017 :  1:51:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Read somewhere that they needed the production capacity for higher volume guns.
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guntech59
Advanced Member

Brunei
21023 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2017 :  2:19:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by iceracerx

quote:
Originally posted by Big Sky Redneck

I can’t wrap my head around smokeless muzzleloaders. When loading cartridges there are so many things that raise pressure, 1/4g of powder, mixing powders, bullet depth and so on. How can you load a muzzleloader to an exact load safely each and every time? I blew up a Remington 700 once, locked the bolt up tight all because I misread the manual, I overloaded by 1g and one shot locked the gun up. Smokless powder needs to be exact.



And here, ladies and gentlemen, is a perfect example of a simple mistake that can lead to destruction.

I'd bet that BSR knows that 'grains' are the units of measure for modern small arms cartridges. Yet, he used 'g' as an abbreviation for grains when the actual abbreviation for 'grains' is 'gr'. Small 'g' is the abbreviation for GRAMS.

Oh, and Blackpowder is actually an 'explosive' and isn't safer than 'smokeless' powder.

So, to hi-jack the topic completely, what is the difference between an 'explosion' and 'combustion'?



Not to mention...if .25gr is the difference between 'your pet load' and blowing up the rifle....you need to take a long look at your data and decision making.

US Army (Ret.)
1977-1998

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” — Jefferson`s “Commonplace Book,”

“Political tags – such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth – are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.” Robert A. Heinlein

“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”- Heraclitus.
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