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35WhelenClassic
Senior Member
USA
2069 Posts |
 Posted - 10/21/2009 : 12:15:23 AM
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The Department of Defense has announced they are retooling to once again produce M1 Garands for issue in Iraq and Afghanistan. The rifle will replace the M-4 carbine and M-16A4, which will be sold to Class 3 FFL's and/or loaned to NATO countries.
Reasons given for this decision include:
1) Desert terrain, longer distances
2) Alpine terrain, longer distances
3) Better knockdown power
4) No intermediate rifle cartridges
5) The Garand has a steel butt plate you can wack upside the head of your enemy.
6) The Garand is a real rifle, for real men.
LOL! GOTCHA! 
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Sine Metu
Póg mo thóin!
Member of the 1st Universal Church of St. John Cantius Garand, Reformed (Gas Port)
Stop your frowning, and grab your Browning! |
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MR_Perfect
Advanced Member
USA
3446 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 12:28:35 AM
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| They'd be better off going back to the M14. |
Impeach Obama!
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." --Col. Jeff Cooper
"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace." --Jesus
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." — Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German philosopher
Some will die in hot pursuit and fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit while sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain |
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mark christian
Moderator
Bulgaria
9620 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 12:31:55 AM
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| All you guys who bought M1s from the CMP had better look out because it sounds like Uncle Sam is going to want them back . |
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MR_Perfect
Advanced Member
USA
3446 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 12:34:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mark christian
All you guys who bought M1s from the CMP had better look out because it sounds like Uncle Sam is going to want them back .
and not to issue them to the military... on second thought, maybe for that reason too. |
Impeach Obama!
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." --Col. Jeff Cooper
"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace." --Jesus
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." — Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German philosopher
Some will die in hot pursuit and fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit while sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain |
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MMOMEQ-55
Advanced Member
USA
5860 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 12:37:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by MR_Perfect
They'd be better off going back to the M14.
I agree on the M-14. |
"YOU ARE ONLY AS FREE AS YOU IMAGINE YOURSELF TO BE"
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
- Thomas Jefferson
"Left and Right are only two wings on the same bird of prey."
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machine gun moran
Senior Member
USA
1214 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 12:48:09 AM
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Two guns that got away:
An M1918 BAR in .35 Whelen.
An M2 Carbine with an additional 2 pounds of iron in the receiver and barrel, in .351 Winchester S.L. |
Control is an illusion, because nobody knows what is going to happen next. |
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v35
Advanced Member
USA
9611 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 12:56:45 AM
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That's hard to believe.
The Garand doesn't like sand.
The Garand is twice the weight of the M4 and so is an ammo load.
The M14 may be a better rifle but it has the same exposed breech to blowing sand. |
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hk-91
Advanced Member
7216 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 01:04:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by v35
That's hard to believe.
The Garand doesn't like sand.
The Garand is twice the weight of the M4 and so is an ammo load.
The M14 may be a better rifle but it has the same exposed breech to blowing sand.
have you ever delt with a m4 in the sand, have you delt with the M4 accureacy with only haveing a 16 in barrle. Ya it may be good for 100 yard shots but that it. I would take a m1 any day over the m4 |
See what i have for sale
http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/SellerAuctions.aspx?User=69401 |
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v35
Advanced Member
USA
9611 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 01:05:29 AM
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| Good riddance to the BAR. While it was very accurate for intermittent fire, the Bren and BRNO were better for sustained fire as the barrel could be changed from the rear with a quarter turn of the carrying handle. Additionally, mag capacity of the Bren/BRNO can be greater as they are top loaders. |
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machine gun moran
Senior Member
USA
1214 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 01:56:13 AM
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Which makes me miss a ZB36 in .376 Steyr.
I wonder how an M2 HB in 3 1/2" 12 ga, with 18 00-Buck per round, would work for perimeter defense?  |
Control is an illusion, because nobody knows what is going to happen next. |
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45long
Member
USA
856 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 02:14:52 AM
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And if the were really going to replace the M-4 they would go forward, not back. .308 for sure. Maybe an H&K varient. I just saw ruger come out with their own varient as well. The first showings are pretty good. But it is still 5.56.
There are a lot of replacement possibilities without having to go backwards. |
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machine gun moran
Senior Member
USA
1214 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 03:09:50 AM
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I believe the British concluded from their testing, that a 7mm was about the ideal. Not much was gained going from 7mm to .30 cal., but a lot was lost in going down in caliber from there. The Brits wanted a 7mm at the time we adopted the 7.62, but they caved. The U.S. also once nearly had a 7mm, as the Garand rifle was originally made as a 7mm with a 10-shot magazine. MacArthur had Garand redesign it for the .30-06, which included lengthening the receiver.
There are several good platforms out there which could serve as our next rifle. The last tests that were reported on by the Army Times involved three new European designs which were tested against each other, with the latest mark of M16 as control. The M16 failed more often in the different phases of the test than the other three rifles combined.
This time, the candidates for a rifle (and cartridge) need to be submitted to the Infantry Board for the final (acid) tests. The M16 never was, the testing and approval processes being short-circuited ('waived') by Robert McNamara.
And I'd still like to see a Krinkov in .50 Beowolf. |
Control is an illusion, because nobody knows what is going to happen next. |
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ikeda
Junior Member
198 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 07:21:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by v35
Good riddance to the BAR. While it was very accurate for intermittent fire, the Bren and BRNO were better for sustained fire as the barrel could be changed from the rear with a quarter turn of the carrying handle. Additionally, mag capacity of the Bren/BRNO can be greater as they are top loaders.
After WWII FN made a great BAR with a quick change barrel |
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ikeda
Junior Member
198 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 07:33:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ikeda
quote:
Originally posted by machine gun moran
I believe the British concluded from their testing, that a 7mm was about the ideal. Not much was gained going from 7mm to .30 cal., but a lot was lost in going down in caliber from there. The Brits wanted a 7mm at the time we adopted the 7.62, but they caved. The U.S. also once nearly had a 7mm, as the Garand rifle was originally made as a 7mm with a 10-shot magazine. MacArthur had Garand redesign it for the .30-06, which included lengthening the receiver.
There are several good platforms out there which could serve as our next rifle. The last tests that were reported on by the Army Times involved three new European designs which were tested against each other, with the latest mark of M16 as control. The M16 failed more often in the different phases of the test than the other three rifles combined.
This time, the candidates for a rifle (and cartridge) need to be submitted to the Infantry Board for the final (acid) tests. The M16 never was, the testing and approval processes being short-circuited ('waived') by Robert McNamara.
And I'd still like to see a Krinkov in .50 Beowolf.
Yep the .276 Pederson was actually adopted but McArthur knew we were headed for a big war and did not want to be right in the middle of changing over to a new caliber when it broke out.
Actually the M-16 was submitted to very extensive testing by the Army. (some of which was actually sabotaged)The Army did NOT want it. It was Curtis LeMay that wanted it for the Air Police, and he was the main driving force behind getting the military interested in it. |
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Horse Plains Drifter
Advanced Member
USA
14674 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 08:51:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by 45long
There are a lot of replacement possibilities without having to go backwards.
Going backwards would be going foreward in this case. |
81st FA BN WWII...Thanks Dad
U!S!A! ALL THE WAY!!
Canadian Wolves....Smoke a pack a day
CA#8......3%
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Edited by - Horse Plains Drifter on 10/21/2009 08:54:30 AM |
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elkoholic
Advanced Member
USA
4702 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 08:56:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by MMOMEQ-55
quote:
Originally posted by MR_Perfect
They'd be better off going back to the M14.
I agree on the M-14.
Me too. |
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ikeda
Junior Member
198 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 09:33:14 AM
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Actually the Army has gone back to the M-14, kind of...
The "Designated Squad Marksman" has been created to fill the role between the regular infantryman and the specialized sniper.
The Sniper is normally independently assigned. The DM is normally assigned to an infantry squad, quite often you will find one in each fire team, which means two per squad. The Sniper uses a specialized sniper rifle, such as the M82. The DM quite often uses a M-14 with optical sight. The sniper is trained to engage targets up to 1400 meters. The DM engages targets up to 800 meters.
The unique conditions in Iraq and particularity Afghanistan have created this need for an ability to engage targets at longer ranges. But the 5.56 is still the best all round caliber for the majority of engagements under 300 meters. |
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sharkman69
Member
597 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 10:24:46 AM
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| I'm sure their egos probably wouldn't allow it, but the US military ought to consider the 7.62x39. It's battle tested, proven effective, and readily available. |
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Horse Plains Drifter
Advanced Member
USA
14674 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 10:36:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkman69
I'm sure their egos probably wouldn't allow it, but the US military ought to consider the 7.62x39. It's battle tested, proven effective, and readily available.
Likewise for the 7.62X51. |
81st FA BN WWII...Thanks Dad
U!S!A! ALL THE WAY!!
Canadian Wolves....Smoke a pack a day
CA#8......3%
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ikeda
Junior Member
198 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 10:43:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkman69
I'm sure their egos probably wouldn't allow it, but the US military ought to consider the 7.62x39. It's battle tested, proven effective, and readily available.
As any combat surgeon will tell you, it is also not as effective as the 5.56mm. That is one reason why the Soviets went to the 5.45mm. Why is the grass always greener? |
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Zulu7
Moderator
USA
13209 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 11:08:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by v35
That's hard to believe.
The Garand doesn't like sand.
The Garand is twice the weight of the M4 and so is an ammo load.
The M14 may be a better rifle but it has the same exposed breech to blowing sand.
Yes, the action on the Garand and the M14 are wide open and exposed to the elements, but the tolerances are looser. There's more fudge factor room in an M1-style action than there is in an AR style action. Why do you think that the AK is such a reliable weapon? Because it's loose...on purpose. |
Zulu7
"You're inches away from death every time you go on a mission. How much older can you be at your age?" Catch-22
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson
Rest In Peace, Zipperzap.
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River Rat
Advanced Member
USA
2703 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 12:01:33 PM
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I'd be more likely to believe the opening post if it said the U.S. Military was bringing back the M-1 CARBINE for urban combat work. Perhaps rechammbered in .44 Magnum?
I am a huge fan of the 7.62x39, although by reputation not personal use. I note the statement that combat surgeons will claim the 5.56 is more deadly, but I have heard both sides and am not convinced. Personally, I prefer firing a .30 cal projectile to keep my enemy's head down. I have always had a hankering for a Ruger Mini-30 in 7.62x39. I know it's not terribly accurate, but then combat is rarely a long-range proposition unless you are a sniper. |
An armed society is a polite society -- R. Heinlein |
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River Rat
Advanced Member
USA
2703 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 12:12:44 PM
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Even better: how about an M-1 carbine chambered in .50 Beowulf? Now we're talking, as it's rimless. .45 acp wouldn't be bad either. Synthetic stock, matt-finish parkerized stainless. 40-round mags, possibly also drum mag. I'd take one.
And the trigger on the M-1 is so crisp the M-2 realy wasn't necessary. |
An armed society is a polite society -- R. Heinlein |
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RtWngExtrmst
Advanced Member
USA
3767 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 12:39:54 PM
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Yep. The best combat weapon ever devised by man. The M1 Garand.
Anybody notice how hard it to win a war after we abandoned the Garand? |
Proud Rightwing Extremist
If you don't hate ALL politicians, you're not paying attention.
Save the 2nd Amendment - take a Congressman shooting.
Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under. H.L. Mencken
Women in politics, women judges, women voters and too many girly men = nanny whining state.
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machine gun moran
Senior Member
USA
1214 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 1:40:34 PM
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Wound ballistics pathologists at Desert Samaritan Hospital in Mesa, AZ, conducted extensive testing, jointly with military people, of the wounding capabilities of various calibers. They used donated human cadavers in their research, and were able to choose whatever body parts they wanted to hit. They had the facilities to duplicate any impact velocities.
One result of these tests was that 5.56 55-grain ball would produce a wound that was somewhat more severe than a 7.62 M80 ball, but only at very high velocity, which is not produced by short barrels, and which disappears quickly even from long barrels, at any appreciable range. They found that at 125 yards, the wounding power of the 7.62 equaled that of the 5.56 from rifle-length barrels, and that it rapidly pulled ahead of the 5.56 from that point. One of the pathologists showed me photos of the proximal ends of femurs which had been hit, and at distances where the 5.56 was only making a small hole, the 7.62 was still blowing them apart. I still have the original paper that a pathologist gave me on these particular parts of the tests, which was published jointly by him and a Navy Officer, in the medical journals.
I was involved for a time in experiments with computerized wound modeling for use by ER physicians and military surgeons, so they could know what to expect 'going in', but this didn't work because fairly accurate results depended on heavy parameter input, which would rarely be available to the treating physician. But that's a different story.
At the bottom line, I think Elmer Keith was right all along: Big bullets are good, high velocity is good, and big bullets at high velocity are even better. |
Control is an illusion, because nobody knows what is going to happen next. |
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MR_Perfect
Advanced Member
USA
3446 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 1:45:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by machine gun moran
Wound ballistics pathologists at Desert Samaritan Hospital in Mesa, AZ, conducted extensive testing, jointly with military people, of the wounding capabilities of various calibers. They used donated human cadavers in their research, and were able to choose whatever body parts they wanted to hit. They had the facilities to duplicate any impact velocities.
One result of these tests was that 5.56 55-grain ball would produce a wound that was somewhat more severe than a 7.62 M80 ball, but only at very high velocity, which is not produced by short barrels, and which disappears quickly even from long barrels, at any appreciable range. They found that at 125 yards, the wounding power of the 7.62 equaled that of the 5.56 from rifle-length barrels, and that it rapidly pulled ahead of the 5.56 from that point. One of the pathologists showed me photos of the proximal ends of femurs which had been hit, and at distances where the 5.56 was only making a small hole, the 7.62 was still blowing them apart. I still have the original paper that a pathologist gave me on these particular parts of the tests, which was published jointly by him and a Navy Officer, in the medical journals.
I was involved for a time in experiments with computerized wound modeling for use by ER physicians and military surgeons, so they could know what to expect 'going in', but this didn't work because fairly accurate results depended on heavy parameter input, which would rarely be available to the treating physician. But that's a different story.
At the bottom line, I think Elmer Keith was right all along: Big bullets are good, high velocity is good, and big bullets at high velocity are even better.
Thank you for this enlightening post. |
Impeach Obama!
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." --Col. Jeff Cooper
"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace." --Jesus
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." — Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German philosopher
Some will die in hot pursuit and fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit while sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain |
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Horse Plains Drifter
Advanced Member
USA
14674 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 1:48:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by machine gun moran
Wound ballistics pathologists at Desert Samaritan Hospital in Mesa, AZ, conducted extensive testing, jointly with military people, of the wounding capabilities of various calibers. They used donated human cadavers in their research, and were able to choose whatever body parts they wanted to hit. They had the facilities to duplicate any impact velocities.
One result of these tests was that 5.56 55-grain ball would produce a wound that was somewhat more severe than a 7.62 M80 ball, but only at very high velocity, which is not produced by short barrels, and which disappears quickly even from long barrels, at any appreciable range. They found that at 125 yards, the wounding power of the 7.62 equaled that of the 5.56 from rifle-length barrels, and that it rapidly pulled ahead of the 5.56 from that point. One of the pathologists showed me photos of the proximal ends of femurs which had been hit, and at distances where the 5.56 was only making a small hole, the 7.62 was still blowing them apart. I still have the original paper that a pathologist gave me on these particular parts of the tests, which was published jointly by him and a Navy Officer, in the medical journals.
I was involved for a time in experiments with computerized wound modeling for use by ER physicians and military surgeons, so they could know what to expect 'going in', but this didn't work because fairly accurate results depended on heavy parameter input, which would rarely be available to the treating physician. But that's a different story.
At the bottom line, I think Elmer Keith was right all along: Big bullets are good, high velocity is good, and big bullets at high velocity are even better.
Good post! |
81st FA BN WWII...Thanks Dad
U!S!A! ALL THE WAY!!
Canadian Wolves....Smoke a pack a day
CA#8......3%
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MR_Perfect
Advanced Member
USA
3446 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 1:48:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RtWngExtrmst
Yep. The best combat weapon ever devised by man. The M1 Garand.
Anybody notice how hard it to win a war after we abandoned the Garand?
...or after any of the decisions not to use the fullest extent of our firepower? The Shock and Awe program would have been much more effective with nukes. |
Impeach Obama!
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." --Col. Jeff Cooper
"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace." --Jesus
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." — Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German philosopher
Some will die in hot pursuit and fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit while sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain |
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GiantsFan
Starting Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 8:17:15 PM
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I'll bet there are enough AK's over there for all of out soldiers to replace their M-4s with...at no cost to the taxpayers!!
(May have to wipe some blood off of them after 'negotiations' are complete with the previous owner). |
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v35
Advanced Member
USA
9611 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 8:52:31 PM
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I don't know why the DOD went to a 14.5" barrel when it has been demonstrated it cant produce the lethal ballistics of the 16" barrel.
What's an inch and a half?
One BAR with quick change barrel per squad mightn't be a bad idea.
It shouldn't be as susceptible to sand jams as the M1 (M-1s aren't loose) or M14 since the BAR lockup is an internal toggle mechanism. A dust cover could be easily devised to close off the ejection port.
A Picatinny rail would make sense since the BAR is more accurate than the Garand.
The down side is weight of 19 lbs and 20 round magazines.
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tomahawk
Advanced Member
USA
7655 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 9:17:17 PM
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| i'd like to see an ak in .243 |
"If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them, will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
RIP Spryor CA#22 |
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armilite1015
Advanced Member
3567 Posts |
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mark christian
Moderator
Bulgaria
9620 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 10:41:21 PM
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| I've got a guy bringing four M1s over this evening for me to have a look at. I guess I'd better grab them up before Uncle Sam makes him a better offer |
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victorj19
Junior Member
253 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 11:22:01 PM
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I'll have to ask my fellow Contracting Officer at work. He was putting together the competitive request for proposals to buy more M4s. He wanted to stay on the Joint Light Tactical Vehicle Program and I wanted Small Arms. Didn't work out. I was assigned to JLTV and he was reassigned to Small Arms.
Original post just doesn't ring true to me. Good user test results, real troops prefered the M4 over the M16 and M9. Practical accuracy virtually the same out to 400 yds or so. Years in development and test to revert back to the M1. Can carry a lot more 223 ammo. Troops are carring more weight and DoD is weight concious. Blah, Blah Blah. |
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sharkman69
Member
597 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2009 : 11:36:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkman69
I'm sure their egos probably wouldn't allow it, but the US military ought to consider the 7.62x39. It's battle tested, proven effective, and readily available.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Likewise for the 7.62X51.
Actually, the 7.62x51 (aka the .308) is my first choice, but the 7.62x39 is more cost effective, giving more bangs for the bucks. |
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Txs
Advanced Member
8438 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 01:08:06 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by buschmaster
have you ever delt with a m4 in the sand, have you delt with the M4 accureacy with only haveing a 16 in barrle. Ya it may be good for 100 yard shots but that it. I would take a m1 any day over the m4
Sounds as if you've heard other's statements but have never personally wrung out an M4 - which BTW has a 14.5 in. barrel. Their accuracy isn't quite as good, but the M4 will hold it's own way beyond 100yds. To give you an idea, back in the day my issue was a GAU5/A. That was a 10 in. barrelled M16 and even with this weapon my max effective range well exceeded this.
In military terminology, maximum effective range is defined as the greatest distance at which the average shooter can consistently place hits on a silhouette target.
M16A2: Max effective range
point target- 550m
area target- 800m
M4: Max effective range
point target- 500m
area target- 600m
Straight out of the FM. |
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Mr. Friendly
Advanced Member
USA
6266 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 01:10:30 AM
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anyone remember that video of the guy shooting the frozen chicken at 300 yards with a .22 lr?  |
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hk-91
Advanced Member
7216 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 01:14:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Txs
quote:
Originally posted by buschmaster
have you ever delt with a m4 in the sand, have you delt with the M4 accureacy with only haveing a 16 in barrle. Ya it may be good for 100 yard shots but that it. I would take a m1 any day over the m4
Sounds as if you've heard other's statements but have never personally wrung out an M4 - which BTW has a 14.5 in. barrel. Their accuracy isn't quite as good, but the M4 will hold it's own way beyond 100yds. To give you an idea, back in the day my issue was a GAU5/A. That was a 10 in. barrelled M16 and even with this weapon my max effective range well exceeded this.
In military terminology, maximum effective range is defined as the greatest distance at which the average shooter can consistently place hits on a silhouette target.
M16A2: Max effective range
point target- 550m
area target- 800m
M4: Max effective range
point target- 500m
area target- 600m
Straight out of the FM.
ya i know all about the 14.5 inch barrel but figured i would hit more of the ar family stating the 16 inches. not a whole lot in 1.5 inches. There is more data out there stating how efficint the 5.56 is with a 20 inch barrel and how piss pore it is in the m4 confige. |
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v35
Advanced Member
USA
9611 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 02:11:24 AM
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Right. We forgot how poorly the short barreled M4's performed in Somalia.
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1911a1fan
Advanced Member
Niger
21110 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 05:47:51 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by machine gun moran
I believe the British concluded from their testing, that a 7mm was about the ideal. Not much was gained going from 7mm to .30 cal., but a lot was lost in going down in caliber from there. The Brits wanted a 7mm at the time we adopted the 7.62, but they caved. The U.S. also once nearly had a 7mm, as the Garand rifle was originally made as a 7mm with a 10-shot magazine. MacArthur had Garand redesign it for the .30-06, which included lengthening the receiver.
7mm is 30 cal |
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quickmajik
Advanced Member
USA
10334 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 05:53:08 AM
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7mm is .284
7.62 is .308
7.7 is .311
7.92 is .323 |
The problem with the world is that most things just aint right and nobody gives a damn..
We can't be fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of the ordinary Americans...
-Bill Clinton talking about his oppostion of the second A.
This is still the greatest country in the world, if we just steel our wills and lose our minds.
-Bill clinton
"But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."
- a tidbit of d.o.c.
Finem respice, fuit Ilium, et quos deus vult perdre prius dementat... guten tag.
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Edited by - quickmajik on 10/22/2009 05:56:00 AM |
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1911a1fan
Advanced Member
Niger
21110 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 05:58:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by quickmajik
7mm is .284
7.62 is .308
7.7 is .311
7.92 is .323
so what does the 7 in 7.62 stand for?
edit: he did say "a 7mm" |
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Edited by - 1911a1fan on 10/22/2009 06:02:03 AM |
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quickmajik
Advanced Member
USA
10334 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 06:08:49 AM
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| 7 full millimeters. the devil is in details, in the tenths and houndredths behind the 7. and in some cases they are wrong, the 7.62x54R is actually .311. i think the europeans like ti make things more diffficult. |
The problem with the world is that most things just aint right and nobody gives a damn..
We can't be fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of the ordinary Americans...
-Bill Clinton talking about his oppostion of the second A.
This is still the greatest country in the world, if we just steel our wills and lose our minds.
-Bill clinton
"But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."
- a tidbit of d.o.c.
Finem respice, fuit Ilium, et quos deus vult perdre prius dementat... guten tag.
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Edited by - quickmajik on 10/22/2009 06:24:21 AM |
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1911a1fan
Advanced Member
Niger
21110 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 06:23:12 AM
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perhaps i should have stated 30 cal is a 7mm, you splitting hairs worse than me now
off to work have fun with it |
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ikeda
Junior Member
198 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 11:51:32 AM
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Splitting hairs kind of gets important when you are dealing with bullets! Try loading a 7mm bullet into a 30 cal case and see what kind of results you get.
30cal is 7.62mm NOT 7mm.
7mm = .276" (Bore diameter, which has a groove diameter of .284")
7.62mm= .300" (Bore diameter, which has a groove diameter of .308") |
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ikeda
Junior Member
198 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 12:07:59 PM
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may I remind you, that the 5.45x39 doesn't depend on breaking apart at the canneleuleruleurle, instead it relies on a hollow brass tip for rapid upset, starts tumbling at 2.5", and it does this at any reasonable velocity, barrel length or range.
[/quote]
Very interesting stuff. However the Russian 5.45 was not designed to, and normally does not "upset" (mushroom?). The hollow in the nose is designed to move the center of gravity farther to the rear of the bullet, thus enhancing it's tendency to tumble. Any upsetting of the bullet is an "unintended" extra benefit of the design.
The 6.5MM Jap round from WWII had a very thick jacket in the front half to accomplish the same thing. The 7.7mm Jap bullets had a aluminum core in the front half of the bullet, also for the same purpose.
They were both copied from a very early 303 British bullet that had a fiber core in the nose, also to enhance it's tendency to tumble. Interestingly the British considered this bullet OK to use on "savages" but not for use against their civilized European brothers. |
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Duce1
Advanced Member
USA
5655 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 12:12:49 PM
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You guys are full of hopes and dreams .
With our new leader in office for at least the next 4 years you should really know our new military weapons will be ?
{ rubber-bands and rocks } |
Certified Taticool and Level one Mall cop in training. |
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1911a1fan
Advanced Member
Niger
21110 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 1:27:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ikeda
Splitting hairs kind of gets important when you are dealing with bullets! Try loading a 7mm bullet into a 30 cal case and see what kind of results you get.
30cal is 7.62mm NOT 7mm.
7mm = .276" (Bore diameter, which has a groove diameter of .284")
7.62mm= .300" (Bore diameter, which has a groove diameter of .308")
been reloading for years, in excess of 100,000 rounds by hand, i know the importance, but saying 7.62 does not fall into 7mm category is like saying today is not 10-22 because it is after 12pm, he stated "A 7mm" not 7mm as in 7mm Mauser etc, 7.62/.308 could be generalized into both categories 7mm and .30, there is thread upon thread with the same general description on it, just like 5.56/.223 being generalized as .22 caliber
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ikeda
Junior Member
198 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 1:50:43 PM
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5.56 and 223 ARE both 22 caliber!!!!
7mm is .28 caliber!!!
30 caliber is 30 caliber!!!
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machine gun moran
Senior Member
USA
1214 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 1:57:07 PM
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We can split it further, and say that because a 7.62mm is more than halfway from a 7mm to an 8mm, that it is an 8mm.
Or we can generalize it further, and say that the whole bunch of them, and the 5.56 as well, all fall into the category of '< 1cm'.
And rather than establishing anything, we will disestablish everything, and reduce the discussion to bangsticks vs clubs. |
Control is an illusion, because nobody knows what is going to happen next. |
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1911a1fan
Advanced Member
Niger
21110 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2009 : 2:10:13 PM
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Topic |
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DOD announces replacement for M4 carbines
