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n/a
deleted

26702 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  11:23:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ST. PETERSBURG --
Plenty of Bay area residents have already experienced the result of getting caught on camera running a red light - a $158 ticket.

But for some law enforcement personnel and certain city employees, that is not the case.

According to Bay News 9's partner newspaper the Tampa Bay Times, St. Petersburg, Clearwater and Port Richey waive the tickets for law enforcement and emergency vehicles. Other agencies, including Hillsborough County, South Pasadena, Gulfport, New Port Richey, Temple Terrace and Tampa do not.

St. Petersburg resident Matt Florell voiced his concern about the situation to the city council last week.

St. Petersburg Police Chief Chuck Harmon expressed his answer this week.

"Is the public being treated the same? No," said St. Petersburg police Chief Chuck Harmon. "The reason why is that police have the authority to run red lights. If they don't have a legitimate reason, I want to discipline them. But I'm not going to also fine them."

n/a
deleted

26702 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  11:30:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I see them around here, turning right on red without stopping, the camera flash goes off,, only to see them pull into some store, It is evident they are not on a call.... I have seen them driving down the road, light turns red,,, They turn on their lights and woop woop the siren and blow through the red light, then after clearing the light they turn everything off and go on their merry way...
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KEVD18
Advanced Member

USA
15203 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  11:39:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
in mass emergency vehicles have to come to a complete stop at every stop light/sign. we can proceed against the signal once it is safe to do so, but we have to stop first.

thats not to say it always happens that way. it doesnt, but thats the law...
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ElMuertoMonkey
Advanced Member

25406 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  11:43:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll give the cops a pass on running reds. So long as they don't do it in a reckless and dangerous manner, it's fine by me since there's certainly worse things they could be doing and their job's crappy enough without having to pay for going through a red light.

If I take office supplies from work, like a pen or some paper, who cares? No one. If someone else off the street does it, security escorts them from the building after taking the items in question back. We all have things we can get away with that others can't and that's the way life is and so long as it falls within certain parameters and doesn't contribute to the destabilization of the social contract, it's fine. No harm done.

And that's what this is in my opinion. Cops running reds doesn't match up to, for example, cops raping women or shaking down suspects for bribes. In this case I'm going to have to agree with the chief: discipline them if you must, but fining them would be too much.
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Alan Rushing
Advanced Member

9070 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  11:44:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

It's a real downer when ambulances or other emergency vehicles wipe out folks or families along the way.

Awhile back an emergency vehicle did that deed and was NOT responding to an actual emergency ... just 'end running" traffic ... they did manage to create and emergency themselves though.
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Don McManus
Advanced Member

USA
17113 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  12:49:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When the Krispy Kreme light goes on, no other light matters.

'Freedom and a submissive populace cannot co-exist.'
Brad Steele.


'The Constitution that was actually enacted and formally amended creates islands of government powers in a sea of liberty. The judicially redacted constitution creates islands of liberty rights in a sea of governmental powers.'
Randy E. Barnett


CA #3
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skicat
Advanced Member

8875 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  4:32:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey

I'll give the cops a pass on running reds. So long as they don't do it in a reckless and dangerous manner, it's fine by me since there's certainly worse things they could be doing and their job's crappy enough without having to pay for going through a red light.

If I take office supplies from work, like a pen or some paper, who cares? No one. If someone else off the street does it, security escorts them from the building after taking the items in question back. We all have things we can get away with that others can't and that's the way life is and so long as it falls within certain parameters and doesn't contribute to the destabilization of the social contract, it's fine. No harm done.

And that's what this is in my opinion. Cops running reds doesn't match up to, for example, cops raping women or shaking down suspects for bribes. In this case I'm going to have to agree with the chief: discipline them if you must, but fining them would be too much.



I'll have to disagree EMM. Your argument necessitates accepting that small levels of dishonesty and/ or crime are OK. Secondly there is no reason to allow privileged status to a minority as an unofficial job perk. The provision that some may skip past traffic laws while discharging duties for the public welfare is only extended because we bow to the practical realization that they do so only to mitigate greater harm elsewhere. Absent any such situational modifier they have no license to break any law.

So, Put those office supplies back!

"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." Ron Paul

“The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don’t know anything about.”
- Wayne Dyer
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austin20
Advanced Member

USA
23858 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  10:07:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Don McManus

When the Krispy Kreme light goes on, no other light matters.

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nunn
Administrator

USA
35233 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  10:30:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
only to see them pull into some store, It is evident they are not on a call....


It is evident of nothing. I answer calls at "some store" all the time. People in stores report crimes as much as anyone else, maybe more.

Here is the Texas law on the subject:

TRANSPORTATION CODE

TITLE 7.

VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC

SUBTITLE C. RULES OF THE ROAD

CHAPTER 546.

OPERATION OF AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLES AND CERTAIN OTHER VEHICLES

SUBCHAPTER A. AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY VEHICLES

Sec. 546.001. PERMISSIBLE CONDUCT. In operating an authorized emergency vehicle the operator may:(1) park or stand, irrespective of another provision of this subtitle;(2) proceed past a red or stop signal or stop sign, after slowing as necessary for safe operation;(3) exceed a maximum speed limit, except as provided by an ordinance adopted under Section 545.365, as long as the operator does not endanger life or property; and(4) disregard a regulation governing the direction of movement or turning in specified directions.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.

Sec. 546.002. WHEN CONDUCT PERMISSIBLE. (a) In this section, "police escort" means facilitating the movement of a funeral, oversized or hazardous load, or other traffic disruption for public safety purposes by a peace officer described by Articles 2.12(1)-(4), (8), and (22), Code of Criminal Procedure.(b) Section 546.001 applies only when the operator is:(1) responding to an emergency call;(2) pursuing an actual or suspected violator of the law;(3) responding to but not returning from a fire alarm;(4) directing or diverting traffic for public safety purposes; or(5) conducting a police escort.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended by Acts 2003, 78th Leg., ch. 66, Sec. 1, eff. May 16, 2003.Amended by: Acts 2005, 79th Leg., Ch. 834, Sec. 1, eff. June 17, 2005.

Sec. 546.003. AUDIBLE OR VISUAL SIGNALS REQUIRED. Except as provided by Section 546.004, the operator of an authorized emergency vehicle engaging in conduct permitted by Section 546.001 shall use, at the discretion of the operator in accordance with policies of the department or the local government that employs the operator, audible or visual signals that meet the pertinent requirements of Sections 547.305 and 547.702.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.

Sec. 546.004. EXCEPTIONS TO SIGNAL REQUIREMENT. (a) A volunteer fire fighter who operates a private vehicle as an authorized emergency vehicle may engage in conduct permitted by Section 546.001 only when the fire fighter is using visual signals meeting the pertinent requirements of Sections 547.305 and 547.702.(b) An authorized emergency vehicle that is operated as a police vehicle is not required to be equipped with or display a red light visible from the front of the vehicle.(c) A police officer may operate an authorized emergency vehicle for a law enforcement purpose without using the audible or visual signals required by Section 546.003 if the officer is:(1) responding to an emergency call or pursuing a suspected violator of the law with probable cause to believe that:(A) knowledge of the presence of the officer will cause the suspect to:(i) destroy or lose evidence of a suspected felony;(ii) end a suspected continuing felony before the officer has obtained sufficient evidence to establish grounds for arrest; or(iii) evade apprehension or identification of the suspect or the suspect's vehicle; or(B) because of traffic conditions on a multilaned roadway, vehicles moving in response to the audible or visual signals may:(i) increase the potential for a collision; or(ii) unreasonably extend the duration of the pursuit; or(2) complying with a written regulation relating to the use of audible or visible signals adopted by the local government that employs the officer or by the department.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.

Sec. 546.005. DUTY OF CARE. This chapter does not relieve the operator of an authorized emergency vehicle from:(1) the duty to operate the vehicle with appropriate regard for the safety of all persons; or(2) the consequences of reckless disregard for the safety of others.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.

Sec. 546.006. DESIGNATED EMERGENCY VEHICLE DURING DECLARED DISASTERS. (a) From recommendations made under Section 418.013(c), Government Code, the department shall designate which vehicles may be operated by which designated organizations as emergency vehicles during declared disasters.(b) A vehicle designated under Subsection (a) may be operated by a designated organization as if the vehicle were an authorized emergency vehicle under this subtitle if:(1) the governor declares a state of disaster under Section 418.014, Government Code;(2) the department requests assistance from the designated organization; and(3) the vehicle is operated by the designated organization or a member of the designated organization in response to the state of disaster.(c) The department shall adopt rules as necessary to implement this section.
Added by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 258, Sec. 5.02, eff. September 1, 2007.

Sec. 546.007. CLOSURE OF ROAD OR HIGHWAY BY FIREFIGHTER. (a) This section applies only to a firefighter who is employed by or a member of:(1) a fire department operated by an emergency services district;(2) a volunteer fire department; or(3) a fire department of a general-law municipality.(b) A firefighter, when performing the firefighter's official duties, may close one or more lanes of a road or highway to protect the safety of persons or property.(c) The closure shall be limited to the affected lane or lanes and one additional lane unless the safety of emergency personnel operating on the road or highway requires more lanes to be closed.(d) In making a closure under this section, the firefighter shall deploy one or more authorized emergency vehicles with audible and visual signals that meet the requirements of Sections 547.305 and 547.702.
Added by Acts 2011, 82nd Leg., R.S., Ch. 490, Sec. 1, eff. September 1, 2011.

SUBCHAPTER B. OPERATION OF CERTAIN FIRE-FIGHTING EQUIPMENTSec. 546.021. MUTUAL AID ORGANIZATIONS. (a) Two or more businesses whose activities require the maintenance of fire-fighting equipment may form a mutual aid organization in which the member businesses agree to assist each other during an emergency by supplying fire-fighting equipment or services.(b) The presiding officer or director of an organization formed under this section shall deliver a list to the county fire marshal, or to the commissioners court of a county if the county does not have a fire marshal, in each county in which a member business is located. The list must contain the name of the registered owner and license plate number of each motor vehicle that each member intends to use in supplying fire-fighting equipment or services.(c) If the county fire marshal or commissioners court determines that the operation of the vehicles on the list is in the public interest and not a threat to public safety, the marshal or court shall approve the list.(d) On approval of the list by the county fire marshal or commissioners court, a person operating a listed motor vehicle in response to a call for emergency fire-fighting assistance from a member has the rights and restrictions placed by this subtitle on the operator of an authorized emergency vehicle.(e) A county is not liable for damage to a person or property caused by a person approved by the county under this section to operate a motor vehicle for emergency fire-fighting assistance.
Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.



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TooBig
Advanced Member

USA
18755 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  10:51:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They have to go fast to get the freshest donuts and they should be held to the same laws that regular citizens are.

Tell Congress it's time to Read the Bills First
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JnRockwall
Advanced Member

USA
12642 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2012 :  11:56:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Classic095

I see them around here, turning right on red without stopping, the camera flash goes off,, only to see them pull into some store, It is evident they are not on a call.... I have seen them driving down the road, light turns red,,, They turn on their lights and woop woop the siren and blow through the red light, then after clearing the light they turn everything off and go on their merry way...



Rowlett Police are notorious for this nonsense and I think it is common knowledge in Dallas, that if you have a badge, you skate. On duty or off.

“When the South raised its sword against the Union’s Flag, it was in defense of the Union’s Constitution.”
Confederate General John B. Gordon
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Captplaid
Advanced Member

USA
17460 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  12:11:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All Americans are created equal.

Some are more equal than others.


We live in a post constitutional police state.

Obama believes he can tax your breathing.


Liberty isn't free. It is paid in blood. -Thomas Jefferson

Does anyone remember what the Boston Tea Party was about?
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Alpine
Advanced Member

9530 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  12:43:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Red Light Cameras are nothing more than revenue generating machines.

There is no "Safety Camera" "Enforcement Camera" involvement.

Any long term study that I have ever read, shows no improvement in accident rates at the intersection where these camera are installed.

Unless that study was made by the company that is making money from the cameras.

Thankfully my current state (Idaho) has no Red Light Cameras at all.

Your mileage may vary.
“Every time a system is made foolproof - a new class of fool emerges.”
Prod Harris



"If you ain't got pictures, I wasn't there."

"Profanity is the linguistics of the inarticulate."

You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat."
Albert Einstein

In a follow-up story, local police are considering charging Mr. Lapointe with felony stupid. The usual additional charge of Ignorant in a Smart Zone will not be applied, due to the rural location of the incident, according to a police spokesman.

"The two most important rules in a gunfight are: Always cheat and Always win." Clint Smith

I come from a State that raises corn and cotton and cock-leburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I am from Missouri. You have got to show me.
- Willard D. Vandiver

The burden of proof lies on the plaintiff.
- Legal maxim
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Waco Waltz
Advanced Member

USA
11599 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  05:54:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Unless an emergency vehical is on an emergency call running a red just puts other traffic at risk. It's why we have red, yello and green lights in the first place.

This is a no brainer.

http://www.{elsewhere}/node/13240 <---{elsewhere}

“There was truth and there was untruth, and if you clung to the truth even against the whole world, you were not mad.”
George Orwell, 1984
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nunn
Administrator

USA
35233 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  07:49:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I think it is common knowledge in Dallas, that if you have a badge, you skate. On duty or off.


If you "think" that, you haven't been paying attention.

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n/a
deleted

15445 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  08:01:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
nunn
Administrator



USA
30680 Posts
Posted - 05/23/2012 : 10:30:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
only to see them pull into some store, It is evident they are not on a call....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It is evident of nothing. I answer calls at "some store" all the time. People in stores report crimes as much as anyone else, maybe more.




You see them pull into a store, get out, go in and grab a coffee, and right back out again...I have been at a 7-11, seen the cop flash their lights and go thru a red,...come into the store, get a coffee, Free by the way, and walk out...

Happens frequently at the 7-11 where I stop every morning for my coffee and paper..


Lil' Stinker's Opinion
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nunn
Administrator

USA
35233 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  08:58:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you see it, and it is wrong, there is a place to report it where it might do some good.

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n/a
deleted

26702 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  10:08:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That particular one has a little sign by the door that says it is a sheriff's sub station.... Right on a corner with 4 way red lights.... See em flash their way through that light all the time.... Only as black roses said,, go in a get coffee... So David. They do do it for their own convenience...Beth goes in there every morning when going to work and when I take her I have seen the Deputies run that light..Now let me tell you where they park, while on duty at the bar they stop in for a beer...There is this bar, the parking lot is accessible only through an alley.. you cannot see the lot from the street.. Go in there any day and you will find a couple cruisers parked there , go inside and there they sit.... I know, you are going to say they are off duty!! Really,, When one gets a call and says I gotta go!! Yep Off duty my Butt...










Edited by - n/a on 05/24/2012 10:18:16 AM
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nunn
Administrator

USA
35233 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  10:39:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All I am stating is that this is not the place to get the problem corrected.

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n/a
deleted

26702 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  2:41:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No but it is a General Discussion forum, and exposing what some "Police" do on the tax payers dime is General Discussion.. I know you as a "Leo" it hurts to know all that your fellow officers do that is contrary to law.... You do try so hard to defend their actions,,, Texas law isnt Florida Law. and Visa Versa... if you think a cop getting his coffee for free is fine,, so be it..or if he can park in a hidden spot and drink while on duty is fine.. thats Ok by me.. As someone once said.. reporting it usually does no good as they Protect each other.........

I know the routine,, I been there and done that....

Edited by - n/a on 05/24/2012 2:42:34 PM
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Waco Waltz
Advanced Member

USA
11599 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  2:48:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nunn

If you see it, and it is wrong, there is a place to report it where it might do some good.



http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=561345

http://www.{elsewhere}/node/13240 <---{elsewhere}

“There was truth and there was untruth, and if you clung to the truth even against the whole world, you were not mad.”
George Orwell, 1984
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SCOUT5
Advanced Member

8645 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  2:54:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey

I'll give the cops a pass on running reds. So long as they don't do it in a reckless and dangerous manner, it's fine by me since there's certainly worse things they could be doing and their job's crappy enough without having to pay for going through a red light.

If I take office supplies from work, like a pen or some paper, who cares? No one. If someone else off the street does it, security escorts them from the building after taking the items in question back. We all have things we can get away with that others can't and that's the way life is and so long as it falls within certain parameters and doesn't contribute to the destabilization of the social contract, it's fine. No harm done.

And that's what this is in my opinion. Cops running reds doesn't match up to, for example, cops raping women or shaking down suspects for bribes. In this case I'm going to have to agree with the chief: discipline them if you must, but fining them would be too much.



What an attitude.

As a tax payer who pays the cops salary it is not okay with me if they get a free pass after breaking the law. If I owned the company where you work I would fire you for removing company property without permission from the person who owned it, me.
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redhawkk480
Junior Member

484 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  4:03:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SCOUT5

quote:
Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey

I'll give the cops a pass on running reds. So long as they don't do it in a reckless and dangerous manner, it's fine by me since there's certainly worse things they could be doing and their job's crappy enough without having to pay for going through a red light.

If I take office supplies from work, like a pen or some paper, who cares? No one. If someone else off the street does it, security escorts them from the building after taking the items in question back. We all have things we can get away with that others can't and that's the way life is and so long as it falls within certain parameters and doesn't contribute to the destabilization of the social contract, it's fine. No harm done.

And that's what this is in my opinion. Cops running reds doesn't match up to, for example, cops raping women or shaking down suspects for bribes. In this case I'm going to have to agree with the chief: discipline them if you must, but fining them would be too much.



What an attitude.

As a tax payer who pays the cops salary it is not okay with me if they get a free pass after breaking the law. If I owned the company where you work I would fire you for removing company property without permission from the person who owned it, me.



could not have been said any better
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nunn
Administrator

USA
35233 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2012 :  11:21:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Classic095: I know you as a "Leo" it hurts to know all that your fellow officers do that is contrary to law.... You do try so hard to defend their actions,,, Texas law isnt Florida Law. and Visa Versa... if you think a cop getting his coffee for free is fine,, so be it..or if he can park in a hidden spot and drink while on duty is fine.. thats Ok by me.. As someone once said.. reporting it usually does no good as they Protect each other.........

I know the routine,, I been there and done that....


You know nothing of the sort, and nothing about me, to be sure! I have repeatedly encouraged citizens, here and elsewhere, to report bad behaviors that they see committed by their police.

I have no sympathy for cops that misbehave. My "defense" only comes in when some of these armchair experts want to hang some cop on the basis of one sketchy news article that does not state nearly all the facts.

I doubt that you have "been there and done that," or you wouldn't have the attitude that "they protect eash other." Had you stuck to your guns, you may have found the opposite to be true. Most police administators have zero interest in protecting their subordinates. Many of them relish the idea of suspending or firing a cop for misbehavior, whether warranted or not. I know this from experience, not from coffee shop talk.

Lots of folks just give up, even though they have a valid complaint. My very own niece, whom I treat as a daughter, and whom I helped raise, had a valid complaint concerning a local officer. She made the written complaint, but didn't want to take time off from work to attend a hearing, so the complaint was handled with just a warning. Had she stuck with it, someone would have gotten days off without pay.

Complaining about a police officer is a little more involved than just making an anonymous phone call. If the complaint is valid, stick to it and get something done.

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n/a
deleted

15445 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2012 :  12:11:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
David...

He was a cop, so he knows...


Lil' Stinker's Opinion
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JamesRK
Advanced Member

USA
20921 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2012 :  02:55:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It doesn’t bother me if they run a red or two as long as they have the lights and/or siren going. Without the lights or siren, it’s dangerous. If they aren’t on a call they should at least try to look like they are.

The damage it does is it reinforces the poor opinions some have of cops.

If I’m the guy laying in the gutter holding my guts in I’d probably appreciate them running a light or two.


The Road to hell is paved with compromise.
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Waco Waltz
Advanced Member

USA
11599 Posts

Posted - 05/25/2012 :  05:23:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Uhhh it's always dangerous lights and sirens or not.


quote:
Originally posted by JamesRK

It doesn’t bother me if they run a red or two as long as they have the lights and/or siren going. Without the lights or siren, it’s dangerous. If they aren’t on a call they should at least try to look like they are.

The damage it does is it reinforces the poor opinions some have of cops.

If I’m the guy laying in the gutter holding my guts in I’d probably appreciate them running a light or two.



http://www.{elsewhere}/node/13240 <---{elsewhere}

“There was truth and there was untruth, and if you clung to the truth even against the whole world, you were not mad.”
George Orwell, 1984
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