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 Straw Purchase Or Not
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dav1965
Advanced Member

USA
10501 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  7:56:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If my wife and i went to a gun show for my birthday and i saw a gun that i wanted for a present is that a straw purchase or not.

If its a straw purchase and i have a ccw how could it be a straw purchase?

hunter86004
Member

USA
993 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  8:07:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nope.
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tsavo303
Advanced Member

8737 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  8:08:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No
It would be if not legal for you to purchase
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shootuadeal
Advanced Member

USA
4126 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  8:10:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dav1965

If my wife and i went to a gun show for my birthday and i saw a gun that i wanted for a present is that a straw purchase or not.

If its a straw purchase and i have a ccw how could it be a straw purchase?



The subject of straw purchases is a very touchy one.

You having a CCW is completely irrelevant. A straw purchase is defined as "acquiring a firearm on behalf of another". It does not matter if the person the gun is being acquired for can legally own a firearm or not.

That being said your wife can legally buy you a firearm for a gift. It is basically the manner you go about it. If you are standing in front of the seller and tell your wife you want a certain gun and she is going to do the paperwork for it you can expect he will probably either tell you that you have to do it or else some may refuse the sale altogether.

The Husband/wife straw purchase is the touchiest one of all and is the most common. What you describe should be OK, but how does the seller know that you aren't a prohibited person and want your wife to do the paperwork because you cannot own a gun?


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mark christian
Administrator

USA
26005 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  8:12:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
When something is gifted, then the owner already has it, or plans to obtain it in order to give it away. In either case you are fine.
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shootuadeal
Advanced Member

USA
4126 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  8:17:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is the legally defining case law regarding straw purchases. The buyer of the gun bought a gun using his "police discount" to buy a glock for his uncle for the purpose of saving his uncle that lives in another state money.

Both men can legally own guns, that was not an issue, what was the issue was the fact that Bruce was acquiring the gun on behalf of another.

Heres one of the many articles regarding this:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/16/justice/supreme-court-straw-purchase/index.html

Remember that one straw purchase that is proven the FFL knew about or "reasonably should have known" is enough for the ATF to revoke an FFL holders license.

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JamesRK
Advanced Member

USA
25431 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  9:38:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure how North Carolina law is now, but when the old man died my brother decided he inherited the guns. He was told he had to have a "permit to purchase" for each handgun. I think the same law applied to gifts, even from a family member (part of the reason I live in Virginia). You can't trust the sheriff to give you a straight answer, so if you want to be on the safe side you might want to ask somebody who knows.

Then there is the Michael Bloomberg Gestapo. They set up a very similar scenario at a gun shop in South Boston, VA. The gun shop didn't break any law or even violate any BATFE policy and was able to prove it in court, but Bloomberg put them out of business anyway, just like he said he would. Then just for the fun of it he bankrupted the owner.

What you're talking about appears to be legal, but if you run afoul of the wrong people they can make your life miserable.

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andrewsw16
Advanced Member

USA
10803 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  9:51:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Best not to talk in front of the seller. If you want her to get you a gun for a gift, then walk away and talk about it and then go back to the seller. Let her buy it and just keep silent about any future plans she may have for the gun, whether it is to gift it to her kids, grandkids, or you. Keep things simple and as far as the seller knows, SHE is buying the gun for herself. Don't put the seller in the tight spot of trying to interpret Strawman purchase laws. Use the old army KISS principle (Keep It Simple Stupid). That works best.
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toad67
Advanced Member

USA
5607 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  9:58:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If your wife, or any other person is filling out the paper work with the intent of you taking possession of the firearm knowing that you can't legally purchase the gun then it's a straw purchase. Other than that it's fine...
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11b6r
Advanced Member

USA
15529 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  10:01:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
AS the man said- whether you are a prohibited person or not is immaterial. A Straw Man sale is when you are not the ACTUAL PURCHASER of the gun. If I buy the gun with my money, and give it as a gift- NOT a Straw Man sale. You can't make it to the gun show, so you give me $200, and ask me to keep an eye out for a Mossberg Model 152- and I buy it FOR YOU, using YOUR money- Straw Man sale.

"Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can borrow mine."
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JohnnyBGood
Senior Member

1203 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  11:13:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dav1965

If my wife and i went to a gun show for my birthday and i saw a gun that i wanted for a present is that a straw purchase or not.

If its a straw purchase and i have a ccw how could it be a straw purchase?




Very simple. Read the instructions on page 4 of the 4473 in reference to Question 11.a.

Here.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/4473-part-1-firearms-transaction-record-over-counter-atf-form-53009/download

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iceracerx
Advanced Member

USA
8005 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2017 :  11:52:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If I were you, I'd contact the BATFE and ask. That is, unless this is just a hypothetical question.

Note on the instruction for the 4473, 'Mr Brown' and 'Mr Black' are noted. You and your wife are Mr and Mrs dav1965. In your case, is the money 'yours', 'your wife's' or BOTH of your's?

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shilowar
Advanced Member

USA
35556 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2017 :  05:11:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by shootuadeal

Here is the legally defining case law regarding straw purchases. The buyer of the gun bought a gun using his "police discount" to buy a glock for his uncle for the purpose of saving his uncle that lives in another state money.

Both men can legally own guns, that was not an issue, what was the issue was the fact that Bruce was acquiring the gun on behalf of another.

Heres one of the many articles regarding this:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/16/justice/supreme-court-straw-purchase/index.html

Remember that one straw purchase that is proven the FFL knew about or "reasonably should have known" is enough for the ATF to revoke an FFL holders license.



There is a sub context to this case. Abramski was suspected of committing an armed bank robbery in Rocky Mount VA. This charge was motivated by the fact that they couldn't get the bank robbery charge to stick. An FBI Agent got nailed for perjury for lying to a Fed Grand Jury in that case. That's likely why they went after Abramski for the straw purchase. That case was high drama around these parts for a while. Many of us knew Abramski(didn't know him personally but interacted with him when he was a Roanoke Police Officer). As I recall part of why they said he intentionally lied to the gun shop at the time of purchase was because he bought the gun on Blue Label and portrayed that he was still a cop, when in fact he no longer work for Roanoke PD.

Edited by - shilowar on 11/13/2017 05:25:36 AM
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Navybat
Advanced Member

USA
6447 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2017 :  08:44:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why not just do the paperwork in your name, and have your wife pay for it? Simple.

FLY NAVY!
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dav1965
Advanced Member

USA
10501 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2017 :  09:51:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This was a hypothetical ? I was just wondering whether it was legal or not. I have my ccw so i am good buying guns.

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Grasshopper
Advanced Member

11359 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2017 :  11:30:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What happened to the days when you go to a shop and buy a firearm - end of story:(
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riflemike
Advanced Member

USA
7531 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2017 :  11:33:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
NOPE..if you can legally/lawfully on a gun

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death.
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SCOUT5
Advanced Member

11301 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2017 :  11:51:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is no difference in her buying a gun and giving it to you as a present than me buying one and giving it to my son, or anyone else for that matter.

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JamesRK
Advanced Member

USA
25431 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2017 :  1:53:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Grasshopper

What happened to the days when you go to a shop and buy a firearm - end of story:(


That's kinda like Czar Nicholas II of Russia asking "what happened to my Fabergé egg collection?" Dead Czars don't need no stinking Fabergé eggs and the proletariat don't need no stinking guns.


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wpageabc
Advanced Member

USA
4963 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2017 :  5:21:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Shady...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u99Q7pNAjvg
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dfletcher
Advanced Member

USA
7500 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2017 :  6:21:30 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dav1965

If my wife and i went to a gun show for my birthday and i saw a gun that i wanted for a present is that a straw purchase or not.

If its a straw purchase and i have a ccw how could it be a straw purchase?



That's not much info to go on, and details matter.

The first question asked is whether the purchaser/transferor will be the owner of the gun. In the occasion of gifting, one cannot gift what one does not own, the act of gifting does not negate ownership. The 4473 doesn't ask how long the purchaser will be the owner. The 4473 specifically allows gifting.

Were the wife (or even a friend) to pay for the gun with their own money and about the time of your birthday present it to you as a gift, and you being not a prohibited person receiving the gun for ownership, straw purchase would not apply. There are other examples of gifting that work just as well - friend to friend, employer to employee. My boss gifted me with a 1918 BAR a few years back.

Yes, there are horror stories both real and somewhat manufactured, regarding straw purchases. Absent more defining details, such as she lives in MS and you live in TX, or that you're going to sell it to a ner do well cousin just out of Parchman, I don't think yours would be one of them.

As to "I have a CCW so how could it be a straw purchase?" that's easy. Let's say your state has a "one in 30 days" law on new handgun purchases, and you hand her the cash so she can buy the gun for you on day 15. I get the gist of it - CCW = good guy not prohibited so how could it be a straw purchase but there are plenty of good guys with no CCW.

dsf

Edited by - dfletcher on 11/13/2017 6:28:25 PM
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CaptFun
Administrator

USA
16158 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2017 :  9:44:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ask this guy...

http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/local/son-gift-marine-palm-beach-reunited-with-his-world-war-rifle/t25GcX0iNpQnAKIr1wflKK/




GunBroker.com Admin

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Grasshopper
Advanced Member

11359 Posts

Posted - 11/13/2017 :  10:27:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CaptFun

Ask this guy...

http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/local/son-gift-marine-palm-beach-reunited-with-his-world-war-rifle/t25GcX0iNpQnAKIr1wflKK/







What a story! Sweet.
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dfletcher
Advanced Member

USA
7500 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2017 :  8:47:51 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dav1965

If my wife and i went to a gun show for my birthday and i saw a gun that i wanted for a present is that a straw purchase or not.

If its a straw purchase and i have a ccw how could it be a straw purchase?



Re CCW and straw purchase, having a CCW doesn't preclude that sort of thing. A CCW is a state issued license. Some states don't care if a person is an illegal user of marijuana or washed out of the US military 30 years ago. Oregon issues CCWs to those with MJ cards, for example, and per ATF having one means you're a federally prohibited person. So, OR will issue you a CCW for that which you cannot legally possess or purchase via 4473. So if you live in a state that has legal private party sales a straw purchase could be Person A buying from the LGS and "selling" it to you privately to avoid lying on a few of those "have you ever or are you currently" questions.

dsf
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remingtonoaks
Advanced Member

USA
14244 Posts

Posted - 11/14/2017 :  9:30:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The funny part about what you're asking is, it's against the law for somebody to buy you a firearm. But they can purchase a firearm as a gift for you, it's becomes o.k.. If your wife is giving it to you as a gift, then you're fine. If she's just buying the firearm for you in her name, its a straw purchase. They do that some people don't buy each other guns and when it comes down to it says they sold it to somebody.

Just have her say it's a gift
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