In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.
Options
Zapruder Film.
84Bravo1
Member Posts: 11,109 ✭
Anybody here who has closely watched the film in question, think that shot came from behind and above?
I do not, and you will never convince me otherwise.
(Did not want to step on the other Kennedy thread.)
I do not, and you will never convince me otherwise.
(Did not want to step on the other Kennedy thread.)
Comments
The problem is that most of us here have a whole brain [:D]
So you have watched the video, and think the shot came from behind and above?
That first shot, where JFK double hand grabs his throat was probably from behind. (Oswald's "Magic Bullet?") The next (fatal) head shot, was most assuredly from the front.
No way in H E double hockeys sticks, that was not a frontal shot. Pay close attention to the head recoil from the shot.
My humble opinion of course.
Very possible.
Have shot a number of pumpkins and fresh gourds. Pressure wave sends pieces in different directions.
While I wouldn't pretend to try and convince anyone that the Warren Commission was 100% correct, there is nothing in the film that 100% discounts the single bullet theory.
Brad Steele
Here's a head scratch-er for ya: "Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK."
I've read the book. Interesting theory.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/accidental-assassin-jfk-theory-alleges-secret-service-agent-fumbled-gun-flna2D11634276
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
The shot is easy to explain and has been thousands of times. But you stated "and you will never convince me otherwise". So why try to explain it.
How is the shot and the head movement involved "easy to explain?"
As I stated before, that shot was from a frontal direction. (You will not convince me otherwise, having been a lifelong shooter.) I know and understand what the recoil and head movement shows.
If you pay close attention, you can actually see brain matter exploding from the rear. Emergency room Doctors agreed. Body whisked away. No conclusive autopsy results ever published.
Buy in to Government explanations much?
I've shot a lot of critters in the head, I've seen brain matter that came out of the entrance wound. That is easy to explain, a hard skull filled instantly with pressure from the hydro-static shock/pressure caused by the bullet. Yes it can go out the exit wound also, but remember the first break in this hard encapsulated container is the entrance wound. The brain cavity in the human skull is a lot larger than most critters there is a lot of fluid and soft tissue to react to the hydro=static shock of a bullet. Some of that tissue exited the entrance wound.
Now take a finger and push on the back of your head, what is your first reaction? Think about it.
Like I said, it is easy to explain.
Here is the magic bullet explained:
There is nothing magic about it.
There is nothing complicated about this shooting. What influenced Oswald and was he manipulated by someone else or who that some else was, we may never know. But the shooting itself isn't complicated.
But why waste time, you will never believe there wasn't other shooters.
Zapruder had no idea what he captured. After 54 years this case has been examined many times.
And never fully explained, from a Firearms/recoil perspective.
The film speaks for itself.
Look at the rearward spray, people.
Interestingly enough, there were many other people filming the motorcade. Why the Zapruder film has become THEE definitive 'film' is beyond me.
Here's a head scratch-er for ya: "Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK."
I've read the book. Interesting theory.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/accidental-assassin-jfk-theory-alleges-secret-service-agent-fumbled-gun-flna2D11634276
There is another film from the other side of the street. But the man was to far away and the footage is not very good. So it doesn't show much.
Anybody here who has closely watched the film in question, think that shot came from behind and above?
I do not, and you will never convince me otherwise.
(Did not want to step on the other Kennedy thread.)
What other Kennedy thread??
quote:Originally posted by 84Bravo1
Anybody here who has closely watched the film in question, think that shot came from behind and above?
I do not, and you will never convince me otherwise.
(Did not want to step on the other Kennedy thread.)
What other Kennedy thread??
Ah yes! Number Gazillion and 23!!!!!! [8)]
The TRUTH to all things eventually evens out with time. God always sorts them out no matter what they think they got away with.
Your really not going to like my views on the moon landing.
(Lifelong photographer, Military Photographer, BFA in Photoghraphy.)
Where do the two, sometimes three, different direction shadows come from? Have you ever paid attention to/noticed that? (Single light source, the Sun?) No stars visible, ever. What about the Stars and Stripes waving in the breeze? Uhmn, there is no breeze in space.
I will not convince others otherwise. I acknowledge that. Not even worried about it, in the least.
I had a TS clearance in the Military. Oversaw and managed a TS level photo lab. (Site R/Raven Rock.) What is promogulated by our Government versus what is going on, is two different realities. I've seen it.
Argue differently all you want. I've seen and know otherwise.
I know and realize I will take major heat and ridicule for this post. I don't care. I'm intelligent, know what I've seen/see. (Can form my own opinion.) I do not believe everything I am told. I've seen things with my own eyes, that prove to me otherwise.
If you really belief the obvious myth that the moon landings were staged, there is probably little that can be done wrt to the Kennedy Assassination, Roosevelt's complicity in the Pearl Harbor attacks, Bush's complicity in the 11 September, 2001 attacks, or the current belief that the Earth is not the center of the Multi-verse.
Brad Steele
a so called kennedy special if you will
i have fired both extensively - hundreds of rounds through each piece
mike
I still think Mrs. Lincoln left the door open so her lover could kill Abe.[:D]Now prove me wrong.
No, I haven't & can't imagine why anyone would choose to waste their time doing so. Suppose someone comes forward & claims they were the second shooter. How would they prove it?
I still think Mrs. Lincoln left the door open so her lover could kill Abe.[:D]Now prove me wrong.
I studied it frame by frame, because of my Degree. (BFA in Photography) I elected in my Senior year of Indipendent Studies, to do so. (Edited to reflect, the actual situation.)
It was not a "waste of time," but enlightening, and educational.
Hope that helps you. If not, that's okay too.
quote:Originally posted by gruntled
No, I haven't & can't imagine why anyone would choose to waste their time doing so. Suppose someone comes forward & claims they were the second shooter. How would they prove it?
I still think Mrs. Lincoln left the door open so her lover could kill Abe.[:D]Now prove me wrong.
I studied it frame by frame, because my Degree (BFA in Photography) dictated I do so.
Hope that helps you. If not, that's okay too.
It's starting to sound like you have a BA in creative writing.
Just how and why would a Bachelors of Fine Art in Photography 'dictate' that you review an old 8mm film and just where did you obtain said film? If you were working toward a Masters of Fine Art in forensic photography or working for the FBI, your story would hold more water.
Until then,
And the ones that mother gives you, don't do anything at all
Go ask Alice, when she's ten feet tall
And if you go chasing rabbits, and you know you're going to fall
Tell 'em a hookah-smoking caterpillar has given you the call
And call Alice, when she was just small
When the men on the chessboard get up and tell you where to go
And you've just had some kind of mushroom, and your mind is moving low
Go ask Alice, I think she'll know
When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead
And the white knight is talking backwards
And the red queen's off with her head
Remember what the dormouse said
Feed your head, feed your head
Okay. I'm okay, with your uninformed analysis. (Not that I agree with any of your BS.)
I took advanced individual studies and classes, based on my background and Photographic experience. (Military, etc.)
I have a lot of "Forensic Photography," in my background.
So, you are involved in BFA (Photographic concentration,) degree course requirements? Or Individual studies based on the same?
I highly doubt it.
I'm retired, so I am not 'involved' in earning a BFA in anything, however, I did earn a BFA in Industrial Design before earning a BSME and getting a real job.
As a matter of fact, I do have a background in 'photography'. In the mid 70's I took a 100 level 'basic photo' class and started shooting photos with a 6x7 medium format camera, moved up to 5x7 and 8x10 large format cameras before buying a 35mm SLR to shoot sports. I took 'advanced photo' (B&W) as well as 'Color'. I have an extensive background in graphics work with 'Stat' cameras as well as archival photo developing. I was able to secure 'independent study' classes my junior and senior years in ID. In addition I studied FORTRAN, Calculus, Engineering Graphics (a precursor to CAD) and anything else I could find to give me an edge getting a job.
I have several old friends that have BFA's with concentrations in Photography. One went to Brooks and the one that worked for Nat Geo went to the same State U that I did.
That's an overview.
So, care to educate us 'dummies' just how your BFA degree DICTATED that you view the Zapruder film 'frame by frame'?
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
quote:Originally posted by 84Bravo1
quote:Originally posted by gruntled
No, I haven't & can't imagine why anyone would choose to waste their time doing so. Suppose someone comes forward & claims they were the second shooter. How would they prove it?
I still think Mrs. Lincoln left the door open so her lover could kill Abe.[:D]Now prove me wrong.
I studied it frame by frame, because my Degree (BFA in Photography) dictated I do so.
Hope that helps you. If not, that's okay too.
It's starting to sound like you have a BA in creative writing.
Just how and why would a Bachelors of Fine Art in Photography 'dictate' that you review an old 8mm film and just where did you obtain said film? If you were working toward a Masters of Fine Art in forensic photography or working for the FBI, your story would hold more water.
Until then,
Okay. I'm okay, with your uninformed analysis. (Not that I agree with any of your BS.)
I took advanced individual studies and classes, based on my background and Photographic experience. (Military, etc.)
Do you understand what "Individual Studies," means?
I have a lot of "Forensic Photography," in my background.
So, you are involved in BFA (Photographic concentration,) degree course requirements? Or Individual Studies requirements based on the same?
I highly doubt it.
I love when People who do not know what they are talking about, show their *.
Please feel free to post your uniformed opinion here to this thread, and against me again. I look forward to it.
I'm not sure I can keep up with your 'edits'. If you are who you say you are, why are you so defensive buttercup?
From where I sit, the only one showing their * is you. But then again, I'm 'uninformed'.
quote:Originally posted by 84Bravo1
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
quote:Originally posted by 84Bravo1
quote:Originally posted by gruntled
No, I haven't & can't imagine why anyone would choose to waste their time doing so. Suppose someone comes forward & claims they were the second shooter. How would they prove it?
I still think Mrs. Lincoln left the door open so her lover could kill Abe.[:D]Now prove me wrong.
I studied it frame by frame, because my Degree (BFA in Photography) dictated I do so.
Hope that helps you. If not, that's okay too.
It's starting to sound like you have a BA in creative writing.
Just how and why would a Bachelors of Fine Art in Photography 'dictate' that you review an old 8mm film and just where did you obtain said film? If you were working toward a Masters of Fine Art in forensic photography or working for the FBI, your story would hold more water.
Until then,
Okay. I'm okay, with your uninformed analysis. (Not that I agree with any of your BS.)
I took advanced individual studies and classes, based on my background and Photographic experience. (Military, etc.)
Do you understand what "Individual Studies," means?
I have a lot of "Forensic Photography," in my background.
So, you are involved in BFA (Photographic concentration,) degree course requirements? Or Individual Studies requirements based on the same?
I highly doubt it.
I love when People who do not know what they are talking about, show their *.
Please feel free to post your uniformed opinion here to this thread, and against me again. I look forward to it.
I'm not sure I can keep up with your 'edits'. If you are who you say you are, why are you so defensive buttercup?
From where I sit, the only one showing their * is you. But then again, I'm 'uninformed'.
Any "edits" on my part, are to correct grammatical and spelling errors. I really do not care what you think about that. I am, who I say I am. I really do not care what you have to say about it, in any way shape or regard. Clear enough "Buttercup?"
...and we haven't landed a man on the moon.
quote:Originally posted by iceracerx
Your really not going to like my views on the moon landing.
(Lifelong photographer, Military Photographer, BFA in Photoghraphy.)
Where do the two, sometimes three, different direction shadows come from? Have you ever paid attention to/noticed that? (Single light source, the Sun?) No stars visible, ever. What about the Stars and Stripes waving in the breeze? Uhmn, there is no breeze in space.
I will not convince others otherwise. I acknowledge that. Not even worried about it, in the least.
I had a TS clearance in the Military. Oversaw and managed a TS level photo lab. (Site R/Raven Rock.) What is promogulated by our Government versus what is going on, is two different realities. I've seen it.
Argue differently all you want. I've seen and know otherwise.
I know and realize I will take major heat and ridicule for this post. I don't care. I'm intelligent, know what I've seen/see. (Can form my own opinion.) I do not believe everything I am told. I've seen things with my own eyes, that prove to me otherwise.
I totally agree with you but you forgot to mention all of the life support that "supposedly" was crammed into their small backpacks (a/c, heat, oxygen, communications, waste, battery power to run everything, etc etc). The micro technology of just the climate controls system alone didn't exist back in the 60's....if in doubt go outside and look at the size of your ac/heat unit....nope, that BS never happened [;)]
"Never do wrong to make a friend----or to keep one".....Robert E. Lee
I have stood as close as you can get and it?s pretty easy to conclude the shots could be made and that?s about the right distance for a reload in between.
I?m not qualified to dissect film to any degree. But I have met and spoken with some of the engineering gray beards from the moon landing days and they damn sure believe they sent something up and it landed.
quote:Originally posted by 84Bravo1
quote:Originally posted by SCOUT5
The shot is easy to explain and has been thousands of times. But you stated "and you will never convince me otherwise". So why try to explain it.
How is the shot and the head movement involved "easy to explain?"
As I stated before, that shot was from a frontal direction. (You will not convince me otherwise, having been a lifelong shooter.) I know and understand what the recoil and head movement shows.
If you pay close attention, you can actually see brain matter exploding from the rear. Emergency room Doctors agreed. Body whisked away. No conclusive autopsy results ever published.
Buy in to Government explanations much?
I've shot a lot of critters in the head, I've seen brain matter that came out of the entrance wound. That is easy to explain, a hard skull filled instantly with pressure from the hydro-static shock/pressure caused by the bullet. Yes it can go out the exit wound also, but remember the first break in this hard encapsulated container is the entrance wound. The brain cavity in the human skull is a lot larger than most critters there is a lot of fluid and soft tissue to react to the hydro=static shock of a bullet. Some of that tissue exited the entrance wound.
Now take a finger and push on the back of your head, what is your first reaction? Think about it.
Like I said, it is easy to explain.
Here is the magic bullet explained:
There is nothing magic about it.
There is nothing complicated about this shooting. What influenced Oswald and was he manipulated by someone else or who that some else was, we may never know. But the shooting itself isn't complicated.
But why waste time, you will never believe there wasn't other shooters.
Here's another example.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
I worked with a guy every year he would go to Dallas Texas some group he was in would all meet and discuss the shooting .. I never talked much with him as he was just a bit odd , to get his take on it
I just assumed as they met every year and had not figured it out no need asking
quote:Originally posted by wpageabc
Zapruder had no idea what he captured. After 54 years this case has been examined many times.
And never fully explained, from a Firearms/recoil perspective.
The film speaks for itself.
Look at the rearward spray, people.
Well, since we ain't going to convince you -[;)]
The thing is, alot of experts have explained it. Dr Baden for one. You may disagree with them, but to say there hasn't been a body of evidence suggested isn't accurate.
The President's head moves down and to the front from frame 312 to 313 (doing it from memory, forgive me if I have the frame # incorrect) at impact and the matter exits forward. The motorbike cops rode into it, it didn't exit back onto them.
There is a gunshot wound in the upper right rear of the President's skull. A known characteristic of bullet wounds striking such bone is beveling. Much like a BB gun striking glass, which we've all seen, the bevel's cone indicate the direction of the shot. The beveling in the President's skull is consistent with a shot from the right rear and precludes a shot from the front. Sooting on the bullet hole in the rear of the President's jacket, the fibers pushed inward, are again characteristic of an entrance would.
Here' my issue with the conspiracy folks - they take 2nd hand info that under no circumstances would be considered evidence and draw conclusions from it. For example .....
Put "See how Johnson's looking at him" with the night before supposedly saying "after tomorrow the Kennedys will never embarrass me again" and "viola!!!" - LBJ did it. Well, a few problems. A look isn't evidence of anything and rather than meaning he was being killed Johnson's statement can mean he's expecting a wonderful Big D turnout. One other problem - he wasn't at the party where this was supposedly said.
So, after almost 60 years the conspiracy folks are still pushing looks, hearsay and misinformation like "Connally was sitting directly in front of the President". No he wasn't. I've seen the car, I've been through Dealey and the first rifle I used to shoot center fire was a scoped Carcano bought by my Pop from Kleins the same year. After the assassination he stashed it and would never shoot it. Still have it. I think my 1st box of Norma ammo cost more than the damn rifle and that pretty much got me into reloading.
I think y'all got to do better in the evidence department than conclusions based on assumptions.
Still, I can not reason in my mind why if the shot was from the back, that it had so much blow back from the wound scatter over the trunk area of the car. In fact Jackie climbed onto the trunk immediately afterwards to retrieve a fairly large piece of brain & skull.
The car was traveling at around 15 mph, and I don't believe that's quick enough to develop enough wind flow to cause debris to take a reward path. There was a family on the other side of the street, and to the rear of the car who were hit by brain matter, and the motorcycle cop riding to the cars left rear got a lot of blood & brain spray.
The argument of the vehicle driver hitting the gas/flooring the car after the first shot doesn't work for me either. The car wasn't a dragster, and couldn't jet forward fast enough to cause the blow back. Even though it did pick up speed a Secret Service Agent was still able to jump off LBJ's car behind Kennedy's car, catch up with it, and climb onto the trunk.
After 36 years in Law Enforcement, and most of that time as a Detective I understand the art/process of high impact blood splatter. I can't reconcile how a round from the rear could splash all that debris to the left rear unless the shot came from the right front.
Blood & brain matter doesn't weigh a lot & it takes quite a bit of velocity to sling it in a spray the distance that it did in Delay Plaza on Nov-22-1963.
Now, I do believe Oswald was involved, and he did take the shot from the School Book Depository 6th floor that hit the president in the back exiting his lower neck, through his tie, and striking Gov, Connally in the right side of his upper back. That shot works, and it wasn't a magic bullet. Connally was in a jump seat inset from the door that was in front of Kennedy & to his lower left. The shot lines up perfectly from above & to the right rear.
Who else was involved? We will never know. Those boys were buried in a shallow grave out back in Terlingua four hours after Kennedy was killed...still got the shovel...[;)]
Trinity +++