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4GodandCountry...now that I can respond to. Basically in the Palestinian mindset all Israelis are combatants even civilians. Since any Israeli can pack a weapon and use it whenever they feel threatened the average Palestinian views any Israeli has a potential killer(their thoughts not mine). If a Palestinian is shot by an Israeli the Israeli can always use the defense that he thought the Palestinian was going for his illegal weapon(I do wonder if they carry a lot of throwdown weapons with them). Can you imagine in our country if say only blacks were the only people allowed to carry firearms at any time because of their blackness and were they to shoot another member of society in their perceived self defense at any time("the white guy was trying to kill me officer!!") it would be casually dismissed? I think there might very well be some backlash to that policy.
You mentioned "A lot of Arab nations". Yes they have used the Palestinians and their plight as a lightening rod to further their own agendas(not necessarily the Palestinian agenda). By appearing as the hero who stands up to the evil Israelis and their godless friends the Americans an Arab leader can certainly solidify his position in the Arab world. Al-Nasir in his desire to become the great pan-Arab leader probably did the Palestinians a far greater disservice than any Israeli prime minister of American President ever has. Frankly he sold the Palestinians down the river. They don't necessarily admit publicly to that but I believe in their hearts that privately they do realize that is so.
Honestly the thing that scares me more than anything else that has occurred in the Middle East in the last two weeks is the emergence of the FEMALE suicide bomber. Women have traditionally been nurturers and now we see young Palestinian women taking up this cause....How horrific must their lives be(again in their view not ours) that this is starting to occur. Islam has a tradition of modesty in dress with regards to women and from a security stand point up until now...even in a few of our threads here we have talked about the 17-35 year old Muslim male as the major security threat. Given the modesty of their society it will be exceedingly difficult for Israeli forces to monitor women in Palestine anywhere near as effectively as men. Already I can see some screaming Palestinian women claiming some Israeli soldier gropped and fondled her as he conducts a search...gonna be interesting what side of that news report CBS and ABC will be on. The presence of women bombers means that we may very well be seeing the first wave of a new type suicide bomber who just might be far more effective than any male bomber because they can penetrate areas unapproachable for males.
Finally don't think that I personally condone what the suicide bombers are doing. The loss of innocent life runs counter to all of our Western Christian ideas. I spent 23 years of my life on the front line protecting our American freedoms; I'd shoot a suicide bomber if I could prior to him detonating his device.....but I do understand what he is doing and why he is doing it. He feels enslaved and down trodden by an evil occupation force and he knows there is no way by conventional force of arms that he can overthrow his oppressors....but if he can get world opinion to enter the equation his people might, just might, get an opportunity for freedom. Sounds like a cause that would draw a lot of erstwhile patriots. Not our version of patriots to be sure... but theirs.
I really don't have a beef with you 4GodandCountry I just ask for respectful discussion. On my part I'll refrain from any further snide comments. Beach
4godandcountry, I don't see why we should give so much support for Israel. Can you account for their attack on our spy ship Liberty in the 1967 War. I bet you would have a different attitude if one of your relatives had been killed on that ship. The Israel apologists sweep that one under the rug. I have read accounts of an Israeli settlement going up and they drilled deep wells and put in a swimming pool. The Arab sheep herders nearby found that their springs had gone dry. The Israelis have inflicted many atrocities upon the Arabs and I can't see why we should give such massive support to such a selfish and fickle "ally".
"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."
The Israelis complain endlessly that the Palestinians don't recognize the right of Israel to exist. Just yesterday there was a story in the paper that Sharon is in big trouble with his own Likud Party for
suggesting that he might someday agree to discuss peace & that he might be willing to consider the existance of a Palestinian State on some small segment of territory.
You question which side wants peace? You must not read the newspaper.
The Israelis demand unconditional surrender & the arrest of all militants (meaning the entire Palestinian population) & then they will be willing to throw them a few crumbs. When Arafat does arrest people the Israelis then attack the jails & murder the inmates & the policemen guarding them. What they want is for Arafat to do their dirty work for them so that the Palestinian people will come to hate him as their oppressor.
Yes civilians die in the suiside attacks but they also die in about the same proportion in the Israeli attacks as well. I regret both & that's why I continue to call for an end not to attacks by just one side but both. That can only happen if there is a fair settlement of the conflict and that cannot happen as long as we continue to fund & diplomaticly protect Israel.
The stories in this weeks newspaper should make it obvious that the Likud Party & the Hasidic Jewish Parties will never agree to peace until they have no other choise.
I do see both sides of the situation, but, I still believe that it is Evil for anyone to target a civilian population with the type of terrorist actions that the palestinians have used. Maybe it is just the anglo christian background that makes this seem so morally apauling or maybe its the fact that I believe the suicide bombers next stop is this country. How will you want to deal with the terrorists when they kill your sons and daughters as they shop innocently in a mall or grocery store?
When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
I can certainly see why an Israeli would detest the suicide bombers. Sure, they want to invade the camps and kill lots of them. And I admire the guts of the Israelis. But to step back and look at the Middle East from the big picture, as an American citizen, it seems like the US is a big ole dog with a tick on its neck, and Israel is the tick. They suck our life's blood, and when we scratch they won't fall off. It doesn't make sense for us to be so deeply involved in that conflict, except for that Israel helps us secure oil, and Jews exert an inordinate influence on our media. Mao and Stalin slaughtered many more people than Hitler ever did, but when did Steven Spielberg do a movie about the Ukranian Holocaust? No, Spielberg is beating his own drum, and movies like Schindler's List have a powerful influence, a subtle influence, to increase support for Israel. So, let's develop more of our own oil and natural gas and import Russian oil. Then let's do like 7mm says, ship some arms to the PLO, drop support for the Jews, and let 'em fight it out. God don't you love the suggestion floated lately that American troops should go over to Israel for peacekeepers? We can keep the peace there about like we did in Beirut.
"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."
Allen Griggs: If the US were foolish to accept the Israeli request to send "peacekeepers", I'd bet the Mossad would find some way to sucker some poor Palestinian into killing some Americans just to sway American public opinion even more strongly into the arms of Israel.
Ask why the settlements continue to be built against US requests to stop building them. I strongly suspect their idea is to make a Greater Israel as the settlements grow and grow--and when they are satisfied, then peace will be acceptable to them.
Didn't you love Sharon's comment that the US should provide peacekeepers, build a fence to separate the two sides, and the US should pay for it all?
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
Now with greatest trepidation, I wade back into the fray.
You really can determine a lot about a person just based on the specific way they phrase their posts. Here's my observations.
HAIRY: I think your outlook on the situation is based on anti-semitism, plain and simple. And I know what your response is going to be: "I dont agree with Israel, so you call me a Jew-hater. You're a liberal!". I've heard your song and dance 400 times before. The biggest clue: you keep bringing up your frankly bizarre paranoia that Israel is going to take over the world and create a Master Jewish Race.
I wouldnt take away anyone's right to speak their mind, and I've always believed a certain degree of suspicion is healthy, but you sound like a skinhead. You might want to work on that.
Gruntled: Please understand, I'm not trying to be cruel here, but I just honestly think you might be happier if you just admitted you had some heavily Liberal tendencies and let it stand at that. I'm not saying you are Hilliary Clinton or anything, and I may be wrong with that assesment. I'll admit it's a pretty harsh indictment, but based on the specific verbiage of your posts, my mind just keeps saying LIBERAL. You seem to be more concerned for the rights of the Palestinians as a minority group, as opposed to anything else. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Beachmaster: You strike me as a person who is most concerned about the rights of the Palestinians to fight back against oppression in their own fashion. Freedom for those who deserve it seems to be in the front of your mind. That's not a bad thing to strive for, it's just too bad we're on opposite sides of the issue opinionwise. Your
If I felt they were legitimately repressed, I would support them too. But if you kick the bear in the *, you shouldnt be upset when he turns around and cleans your clock.
Clouder: I would give my impression, but I'm afraid to speak to you before you've had your morning enema. After Bingo and group sing-along, maybe you'll be in a more sociable mood.
SEEMS TO ME THE JEWS DID GIVE THOSE WELL DESERVING PALESTINES A CHANCE AT SELF GOV"T BUT WHEN THE PALS POLICE STARTED SHOOTING THE JEWISH POLICE/SOLIDERS ALL BETS APPEARED OFF. HISTORICALLY JEWS HAVE LIVED IN EVERY AREA OF THE WORLD AND LIVED IN PEACE WITH WHOEVER THEY FOUND THERE. THE MUSLIM VIEW SEEMS TO BE DEATH TO EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING ELSE. I DON'T THINK YOU CAN BLAME THE ISRAELIS FOR THE CONTINUAL VIOLENCE. SAD TO SAY BUT I CAN ONLY THINK OF ONE PERMENANT PEACE PROPOSAL, LET'S CALL IT THE FINAL SOLUTION.
Bullzeye: Oh vey!!! How on earth you can consider me anti-semitic is beyond me! Also, please note my screen name--I'm hardly a skinhead.
You claim you read my posts carefully, but you apparently forgot I am Jewish; altho I, and many other Jews, do not support the ongoing, never-ending, land-grabbing efforts of Israel.
To restate my position: Israel has a right to exist but so do the Palestinians. The US has provided Israel the weapons, the money, and the incentive to continue its denial of the simple basic human rights of others. Go learn what the Jewish Land Agency does; learn how the restrictions placed upon Israeli Arabs deny them full citizenship, etc. Perhaps then you'll understand what I and others who have studied this situation are saying.
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
'tis folly indeed to treat with a liar. Therefore, I avoid any serious discussion with you. As I've said before, had you not embarked on your farcical improvisation as an 18-year-old I think we could have gotten on famously. I consider the loss a mutual thing.
I know you look forward to the enema, but you stick yer nose down there one more time and I sweartogawd I'll kick yer butt so hard yer nose'll bleed. Now gitonaottahere.
4godandcountry:
I like ya a lot more when ya don't swear. That is really a bad habit, worse than nose-pickin'
Beach:
He seems like a good guy. Cut him some slack, okay.
I know, Im opinionated, stubborn, crude, and even mean at times and still my dog, wife and three kids still love me, go figure. The way I look at it, just about every other man on the face of the planet has the same traits or at least a few of em even though some people won't admit it... Ye, I swear, but not around children or women. And in the future ill reserve my language for only special occasions, lol...Ill try to be more sensative, , sorry didn't work, I guess Im not the sensitive type...WAAAAAAAAA
When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
Clouder...I've been the picture of propriety since my last posting. I refrained from casting any dispursions on anyone and confined myself to the issue at hand..... It isn't as much fun; but I too think 4G&C has something to offer this forum....and he appears to have dropped the hardcore.com literary style and seems to be fitting in rather well. But in any case I'll continue to mind my P's&Q's. Beach
4G&C....It is a gunuser's sight started by a young lieutenant of Marines where cyber-ninjas congregate to talk dirty to each other and generally attempt to find a way to get lower in the gutter than their fellow members. Most of us have only visited it once...if at all...however I believe a few of our members may visit more often. Alot of "wanta bes" and "never was's" talk like they are tough guys over there. Have to admit in my eyes it's the ultimate insult to ask someone to leave our forum and go there. You seem to be doing just fine here and as for my earlier call for you to visit there... I'll just retract it. Beach
Comments
You mentioned "A lot of Arab nations". Yes they have used the Palestinians and their plight as a lightening rod to further their own agendas(not necessarily the Palestinian agenda). By appearing as the hero who stands up to the evil Israelis and their godless friends the Americans an Arab leader can certainly solidify his position in the Arab world. Al-Nasir in his desire to become the great pan-Arab leader probably did the Palestinians a far greater disservice than any Israeli prime minister of American President ever has. Frankly he sold the Palestinians down the river. They don't necessarily admit publicly to that but I believe in their hearts that privately they do realize that is so.
Honestly the thing that scares me more than anything else that has occurred in the Middle East in the last two weeks is the emergence of the FEMALE suicide bomber. Women have traditionally been nurturers and now we see young Palestinian women taking up this cause....How horrific must their lives be(again in their view not ours) that this is starting to occur. Islam has a tradition of modesty in dress with regards to women and from a security stand point up until now...even in a few of our threads here we have talked about the 17-35 year old Muslim male as the major security threat. Given the modesty of their society it will be exceedingly difficult for Israeli forces to monitor women in Palestine anywhere near as effectively as men. Already I can see some screaming Palestinian women claiming some Israeli soldier gropped and fondled her as he conducts a search...gonna be interesting what side of that news report CBS and ABC will be on. The presence of women bombers means that we may very well be seeing the first wave of a new type suicide bomber who just might be far more effective than any male bomber because they can penetrate areas unapproachable for males.
Finally don't think that I personally condone what the suicide bombers are doing. The loss of innocent life runs counter to all of our Western Christian ideas. I spent 23 years of my life on the front line protecting our American freedoms; I'd shoot a suicide bomber if I could prior to him detonating his device.....but I do understand what he is doing and why he is doing it. He feels enslaved and down trodden by an evil occupation force and he knows there is no way by conventional force of arms that he can overthrow his oppressors....but if he can get world opinion to enter the equation his people might, just might, get an opportunity for freedom. Sounds like a cause that would draw a lot of erstwhile patriots. Not our version of patriots to be sure... but theirs.
I really don't have a beef with you 4GodandCountry I just ask for respectful discussion. On my part I'll refrain from any further snide comments. Beach
"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."
suggesting that he might someday agree to discuss peace & that he might be willing to consider the existance of a Palestinian State on some small segment of territory.
You question which side wants peace? You must not read the newspaper.
The Israelis demand unconditional surrender & the arrest of all militants (meaning the entire Palestinian population) & then they will be willing to throw them a few crumbs. When Arafat does arrest people the Israelis then attack the jails & murder the inmates & the policemen guarding them. What they want is for Arafat to do their dirty work for them so that the Palestinian people will come to hate him as their oppressor.
Yes civilians die in the suiside attacks but they also die in about the same proportion in the Israeli attacks as well. I regret both & that's why I continue to call for an end not to attacks by just one side but both. That can only happen if there is a fair settlement of the conflict and that cannot happen as long as we continue to fund & diplomaticly protect Israel.
The stories in this weeks newspaper should make it obvious that the Likud Party & the Hasidic Jewish Parties will never agree to peace until they have no other choise.
When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."
Ask why the settlements continue to be built against US requests to stop building them. I strongly suspect their idea is to make a Greater Israel as the settlements grow and grow--and when they are satisfied, then peace will be acceptable to them.
Didn't you love Sharon's comment that the US should provide peacekeepers, build a fence to separate the two sides, and the US should pay for it all?
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
You really can determine a lot about a person just based on the specific way they phrase their posts. Here's my observations.
HAIRY: I think your outlook on the situation is based on anti-semitism, plain and simple. And I know what your response is going to be: "I dont agree with Israel, so you call me a Jew-hater. You're a liberal!". I've heard your song and dance 400 times before. The biggest clue: you keep bringing up your frankly bizarre paranoia that Israel is going to take over the world and create a Master Jewish Race.
I wouldnt take away anyone's right to speak their mind, and I've always believed a certain degree of suspicion is healthy, but you sound like a skinhead. You might want to work on that.
Gruntled: Please understand, I'm not trying to be cruel here, but I just honestly think you might be happier if you just admitted you had some heavily Liberal tendencies and let it stand at that. I'm not saying you are Hilliary Clinton or anything, and I may be wrong with that assesment. I'll admit it's a pretty harsh indictment, but based on the specific verbiage of your posts, my mind just keeps saying LIBERAL. You seem to be more concerned for the rights of the Palestinians as a minority group, as opposed to anything else. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Beachmaster: You strike me as a person who is most concerned about the rights of the Palestinians to fight back against oppression in their own fashion. Freedom for those who deserve it seems to be in the front of your mind. That's not a bad thing to strive for, it's just too bad we're on opposite sides of the issue opinionwise. Your
If I felt they were legitimately repressed, I would support them too. But if you kick the bear in the *, you shouldnt be upset when he turns around and cleans your clock.
Clouder: I would give my impression, but I'm afraid to speak to you before you've had your morning enema. After Bingo and group sing-along, maybe you'll be in a more sociable mood.
You claim you read my posts carefully, but you apparently forgot I am Jewish; altho I, and many other Jews, do not support the ongoing, never-ending, land-grabbing efforts of Israel.
To restate my position: Israel has a right to exist but so do the Palestinians. The US has provided Israel the weapons, the money, and the incentive to continue its denial of the simple basic human rights of others. Go learn what the Jewish Land Agency does; learn how the restrictions placed upon Israeli Arabs deny them full citizenship, etc. Perhaps then you'll understand what I and others who have studied this situation are saying.
It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
'tis folly indeed to treat with a liar. Therefore, I avoid any serious discussion with you. As I've said before, had you not embarked on your farcical improvisation as an 18-year-old I think we could have gotten on famously. I consider the loss a mutual thing.
I know you look forward to the enema, but you stick yer nose down there one more time and I sweartogawd I'll kick yer butt so hard yer nose'll bleed. Now gitonaottahere.
4godandcountry:
I like ya a lot more when ya don't swear. That is really a bad habit, worse than nose-pickin'
Beach:
He seems like a good guy. Cut him some slack, okay.
Clouder
..
When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....