In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.

Shipping Handguns sold on GB - UPS says no

FortWorthJakeFortWorthJake Member Posts: 29 ✭✭
edited April 2005 in General Discussion
OK, I know this topic comes up often, but laws and carrier attitudes change daily:

I just got burned trying to ship UPS to 2 buyers. The smug clerk informed me they will only ship between licesees(sp?), which I am not but am shipping to one. This was a 40-mile round-trip to a UPS-staffed shipping center.

I have shipped a handgun UPS as recently as 10/03 (sold on GB) with no problems. I'm going to try FedEx, but one buyer is being a horse's-a-- and want's his money back since it's been 4 whole days since I got payment. So I'll probably refund since I question whether an interstate transfer of this type is technically legal, sounds like I'll have to lie to the carrier and tell them it's for repair, which I don't care to do.

The other buyer is in-state and is cool about it, so I have no reservations about shipping to him.

Seems to depend on who you get with the carriers, but can anyone clarify their policies? Technically, the UPS guy was correct when I double-checked their website, it does state both parties must be licensed. I could not find FedEx policy on their WS. I spent an hour on the phone trying to find out, then called the local Kinkos where they referred me who said "no dice". Looked up a "Dangerous" items location who said they could ship.

I just looked up GCA 68 on the atf site (http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/guncoact.pdf) and it looks as though it is legal for an individual to ship to an FFL in another statue, just looks like the carriers don't want to.

Any info much appreciated!

Comments

  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    It's corporate policy here. One of the guys that I shot 3-D Archery with last year is a UPS delviery guy. I asked him "what the heck". He told me it's corporate policy. You could pack it up and tell them it's something that it's NOT as long as you're shipping it to someone with an FFL. Tell the UPS person that it's a set of small stereo speakers and receiver.....receiver...heh heh heh. You're not breaking the law. You're just messing with their silly corporate policy.
  • KEVD18KEVD18 Member Posts: 15,037
    edited November -1
    downside to not telling them about the contents is your sol if the package is lost or stolen

    nremtpatch.jpgmyoffice.jpgEMT1.jpg

    Air goes in and out, blood goes round and round, any variation on this is a bad thing.
    Turret mounted machine guns usually work better than lights and sirens
  • squeeegsqueeeg Member Posts: 61 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    You don't have to tell them what is in it. You can just tell them how much it is worth. They ask what is in it when/if it is lost.
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    If you are a dealer (FFL holder), you cannot ship the firearm directly to a buyer. Period. That's Federal Law. Even if it's someone in state, they must have a 4473 done on them. You are asking for some major trouble. I would delete this post ASAP and make sure you stick with the regs.


    EDIT Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you said you were a dealer. As a private individual, you must ship to a dealer when selling out of state...I'm not sure what your in state laws are regarding sales between private individuals within your state

    Eric

    All American Arms Company

    www.galleryofguns.com
    VIP Code: AAAC

    Veteran Owned and Operated
  • FortWorthJakeFortWorthJake Member Posts: 29 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by idsman75
    You could pack it up and tell them it's something that it's NOT as long as you're shipping it to someone with an FFL. Tell the UPS person that it's a set of small stereo speakers and receiver.....receiver...heh heh heh. You're not breaking the law.

    I sure hope no one follows this advice. I don't know where you get your info, but per GCA 68, you must inform the carrier when a shipment contains a firearm.
  • EOD GuyEOD Guy Member Posts: 931
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by FortWorthJake
    quote:Originally posted by idsman75
    You could pack it up and tell them it's something that it's NOT as long as you're shipping it to someone with an FFL. Tell the UPS person that it's a set of small stereo speakers and receiver.....receiver...heh heh heh. You're not breaking the law.

    I sure hope no one follows this advice. I don't know where you get your info, but per GCA 68, you must inform the carrier when a shipment contains a firearm.


    Only if shipping to a nonlicensee. When shipping to an FFL holder, notification is not legally required.
  • EOD GuyEOD Guy Member Posts: 931
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by FortWorthJake
    OK, I know this topic comes up often, but laws and carrier attitudes change daily:

    I just got burned trying to ship UPS to 2 buyers. The smug clerk informed me they will only ship between licesees(sp?), which I am not but am shipping to one. This was a 40-mile round-trip to a UPS-staffed shipping center.

    I have shipped a handgun UPS as recently as 10/03 (sold on GB) with no problems. I'm going to try FedEx, but one buyer is being a horse's-a-- and want's his money back since it's been 4 whole days since I got payment. So I'll probably refund since I question whether an interstate transfer of this type is technically legal, sounds like I'll have to lie to the carrier and tell them it's for repair, which I don't care to do.

    The other buyer is in-state and is cool about it, so I have no reservations about shipping to him.

    Seems to depend on who you get with the carriers, but can anyone clarify their policies? Technically, the UPS guy was correct when I double-checked their website, it does state both parties must be licensed. I could not find FedEx policy on their WS. I spent an hour on the phone trying to find out, then called the local Kinkos where they referred me who said "no dice". Looked up a "Dangerous" items location who said they could ship.

    I just looked up GCA 68 on the atf site (http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/guncoact.pdf) and it looks as though it is legal for an individual to ship to an FFL in another statue, just looks like the carriers don't want to.

    Any info much appreciated!



    The clerk you encountered is wrong about UPS policy. They will allow individuals to make legal shipments of firearms. Don't read an excerpt. Make the clerk look up the official tariff. For your info, here is the UPS tariff on shipment of firearms.

    Firearms will be transported between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968 (Public Law 90-618, enacted October 22, 1968), as amended by the Firearms Owners' Protection Act (P.L. 99-308, approved May 19, 1986, and a subsequent amendment thereto, P.L. 99-360, approved July 8, 1986)("the acts"). law enforcement agencies of the United States or of any department or agency thereof, and law enforcement agencies of any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof, and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state, or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local law. The shipper must affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery to each package containing a firerm. Adult means a person 21 years of age or older. UPS, in its sole discretion, may require the shipper to select a UPS Next Day Air Service for any shipment containing a firearm. Handguns, as defined by the Acts, will only be accepted for transportation via UPS Next Day Air Services, but will not be accepted for transportation via UPS Drop Boxes, Internet Shipping, or in response to a request for On-Call Pickup Service. Firearms, including handguns, will not be accepted when presented for shipment at locations of The UPS Store or any Third Party Retailer (as described in Item 1090).
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    Hey.... speakers.... "receiver"

    It's all on how they interpret the word "receiver"
  • IAMACLONE_2IAMACLONE_2 Member Posts: 4,725
    edited November -1
    2 WORDS for handguns "FED-EX"...
    Ship next day air with adult signature required as proof of delivery.
    One of the reasons UPS lost the largest parts of our account of about $7,000-$10,000 per week.
    Yep, we ship that much crap!!!
    Use the good old post office for long arms.
    Walte
  • RadCatRadCat Member Posts: 680 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It is advisable to, whenever possible, have the firearm shipped FFL to FFL. When you do it this way you have "other" shipping methods available, such as "ground UPS" or even USPS parcel which are available to "licensed dealers only". This can actually save you money, if you have worked out an arrangement with an FFL dealer.

    If you must ship as an individual and the recipient will be an FFL entity, you can use a modified version of "idsman 75" to ship it. You are allowed to be "cryptic" in your definition without being dishonest or misleading. You can list contents in the event of a handgun as: "small firearm, assembled parts", or as "handgun parts assemblies" or even more specific, "consignement small gun parts". If you are pushed any further by the clerk just give him a funny look and tell him/her that they are just that: "small/handgun parts", but that you understand that "because they are handgun related, that they must go red label at extra cost..." and, you think is ridiculous, but what the heck, the clerk didn't make the rules...

    It is also a good idea to use a bigger box than necessary to keep the weight to volume ratio lower, and to protect the firearm from damage during shipping.

    You can also, ahead of time make a phone call to UPS asking for "advise" as to how to ship/package your firearm to send to a "dealer". Upon receiving the information ( which you already knew) thank the person and ask his/her name and direct phone number for in case there are any questions later by the clerk.

    ______________________________________________
    running_moose1.gif
    "If it ain't broke, fix it anyway... make it better!" (RadCat)
  • 65gto38965gto389 Member Posts: 2,850 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Try FEDEX insted(works best for me[:D][:D][:D]), However I have heard of Pre-1898 mausers (no FFL req.) shipping through them. Possibly cause of the seller/ shipper did not reveal the contents of the package, and why should you; It is your purchase and no one eleses.



    I have receieved a Thousand rounds of wolf ammo and other AP rounds through them with no problems. I have also Receieved several Black powder handguns and muzzleloading rifles through UPS shipping, so I do not know what is up with that. That particular location is probably highly anti-gun, or even more so then the company as a whole.


    You can tell them you ordered a Pellet rifle, a Braveheart style sword (5ft +), or car and electronic parts.









    " Those who give up a little freedom for temporary security, deserve neither freedom nor security "
    - Benjamin Franklin
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 35,710 ******
    edited November -1
    I use USPS. Legal to ship any type of firearm dealer to dealer, or for long guns individual to dealer.

    For any customer of mine, who would rather not pay overnight shipping at UPS, I would be glad to book the gun and ship it for him, and save him some bucks.

    FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com the best gun auction site on the Net! Email [email protected]
  • adminadmin Member, Administrator Posts: 1,079 admin
    edited November -1
    EOD Guy gets a thumbs up for getting this right. The UPS and FedEx tarriffs appear to be written by guys who left the goverment. They have that long-winded, never quite getting to the point legalese wordiness that leaves most folks scratching their heads.

    However, both UPS and FedEx allow unlicensed persons to ship a gun to a licensed dealer. I found that UPS typically wants to see the FFL copy of the recipient, while FedEx may or may not. FedEx seems easier going about it here in Atlanta than UPS. Sadly, the UPS customer counter folks (and their back room management) are poorly educated in the UPS regs and often dish out wrong answers. I see less of a problem with FedEx.
  • wipalawipala Member Posts: 11,068
    edited November -1
    Yes you would be breaking the law. The law requires you to inform the carrier it is a firearm.
    quote:Originally posted by idsman75
    It's corporate policy here. One of the guys that I shot 3-D Archery with last year is a UPS delviery guy. I asked him "what the heck". He told me it's corporate policy. You could pack it up and tell them it's something that it's NOT as long as you're shipping it to someone with an FFL. Tell the UPS person that it's a set of small stereo speakers and receiver.....receiver...heh heh heh. You're not breaking the law. You're just messing with their silly corporate policy.


    "When you choose the lesser of two evils, always remember that it is still an evil."
    - Max Lerner
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    I didn't think Federal law required if shipping to an FFL. UPS won't ship ANY firearms unless you have an FFL. I'm friends with an UPS driver and he confirmed this as well.
  • EOD GuyEOD Guy Member Posts: 931
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wipala
    Yes you would be breaking the law. The law requires you to inform the carrier it is a firearm.
    quote:Originally posted by idsman75
    It's corporate policy here. One of the guys that I shot 3-D Archery with last year is a UPS delviery guy. I asked him "what the heck". He told me it's corporate policy. You could pack it up and tell them it's something that it's NOT as long as you're shipping it to someone with an FFL. Tell the UPS person that it's a set of small stereo speakers and receiver.....receiver...heh heh heh. You're not breaking the law. You're just messing with their silly corporate policy.


    "When you choose the lesser of two evils, always remember that it is still an evil."
    - Max Lerner





    Like I said before, notification is only required if you are shipping to a nonlicensee. Notification is not legally required if shipping to a licensee. See 27CFR 478.31(a).

    TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

    CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
    DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

    PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

    Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

    Sec. 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

    (a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to
    any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in
    interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed
    importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector,
    any package or other container in which there is any firearm or
    ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or
    ammunition is being transported or shipped
  • EOD GuyEOD Guy Member Posts: 931
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by idsman75
    I didn't think Federal law required if shipping to an FFL. UPS won't ship ANY firearms unless you have an FFL. I'm friends with an UPS driver and he confirmed this as well.


    If UPS won't ship a firearm from an unlicensed individual, the personnel at the customer counter are violating the UPS tariff. I think it must be a localized problem. I've never had any problems and have never had to show an FFL copy when shipping and I'm in a liberal area of California.
Sign In or Register to comment.