.

Sgt. Luther's torture is Very disturbing.

FrancFFrancF Member, Moderator Posts: 35,278 ******
edited July 2011 in General Discussion
I have not heard a peep out of main stream media about this. It's wrong. very wrong.

Veteran Testifies About His "Torture" by U.S. Military


Kors and Luther testified this morning before the House Committee on Veterans' Affairs. Kors described Luther's testimony: "Medal-winning sergeant Chuck Luther described for the committee how he was tortured by the U.S. Army. Luther provided graphic details of his month confined to a closet at Camp Taji, Iraq, where he was pressed to sign fraudulent documents saying his mortar fire wounds were caused by a pre-existing 'personality disorder.'" Attributing injuries to "personality disorders" saves the military money in disability benefits and keeps casualty figures down. Added Kors: "Chairman Bob Filner (D-Calif.) referred to Luther's treatment as 'torture.' The ranking Republican, Steve Buyer (R-Ind.), stormed out of the hearing."

Kors states that "over 22,000 soldiers have been discharged with 'personality disorder' since 2001."


Audio interview
http://www.joshuakors.com/owensinterview101910.mp3

Earlier
http://www.joshuakors.com/owensinterview052710.mp3
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Comments

  • PATBUZZARDPATBUZZARD Member Posts: 3,556
    edited November -1
    What is this all about?
  • FrancFFrancF Member, Moderator Posts: 35,278 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by PATBUZZARD
    What is this all about?


    In short- Kors and Luther testified this morning before the House Committee on Veterans' Affairs. Kors described Luther's testimony: "Medal-winning sergeant Chuck Luther described for the committee how he was tortured by the U.S. Army. Luther provided graphic details of his month confined to a closet at Camp Taji, Iraq, where he was pressed to sign fraudulent documents saying his mortar fire wounds were caused by a pre-existing 'personality disorder.'" Attributing injuries to "personality disorders" saves the military money in disability benefits and keeps casualty figures down. Added Kors: "Chairman Bob Filner (D-Calif.) referred to Luther's treatment as 'torture.' The ranking Republican, Steve Buyer (R-Ind.), stormed out of the hearing.".
  • Queen of SwordsQueen of Swords Member Posts: 14,355
    edited November -1
    "Personality disorder" is one of the most difficult MH disorders to prove. If you know anything about them, any one of us at some point in our lives probably could have been diagnosed as such, but the hardcore afflicted aren't, so they say (sociopaths, etc.), because they don't recognize they have a problem.
  • givettegivette Member Posts: 10,886
    edited November -1
    Gotta agree with the querie: What is this all about?

    So, let's say, I have a personality disorder.

    Please 'connect the dots' as to how having a personality disorder is gonna affect me getting wounded by mortar fire. Thanks, Joe
  • grumpygygrumpygy Member Posts: 53,466
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by givette
    Gotta agree with the querie: What is this all about?

    So, let's say, I have a personality disorder.

    Please 'connect the dots' as to how having a personality disorder is gonna affect me getting wounded by mortar fire. Thanks, Joe


    Me too.
  • FrancFFrancF Member, Moderator Posts: 35,278 ******
    edited November -1
    Good seeing ya back Andrea![^] My peeve- This guy took a hit from a mortar shell, Now the military wants him to say, that injury from the mortar shell is a pre existing condition?

    He would not sign the papers saying so, then he gets tortured into doing so?
  • Queen of SwordsQueen of Swords Member Posts: 14,355
    edited November -1
    Mortar shells or PTSD even can't cause a personality disorder is what I'm saying. It's a cow cookies diagnosis.

    A childhood history of abuse/neglect causes a personality disorder.
  • FrancFFrancF Member, Moderator Posts: 35,278 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by grumpygy
    quote:Originally posted by givette
    Gotta agree with the querie: What is this all about?

    So, let's say, I have a personality disorder.

    Please 'connect the dots' as to how having a personality disorder is gonna affect me getting wounded by mortar fire. Thanks, Joe


    Me too.


    I am taking this happened the other way around.

    You go in a normal GI, Get your leg half blown off. And are forced to sign a waver that your leg are pre existing conditions. And so are your mental conditions.
  • Queen of SwordsQueen of Swords Member Posts: 14,355
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by FrancF
    Good seeing ya back Andrea![^] My peeve- This guy took a hit from a mortar shell, Now the military wants him to say, that injury from the mortar shell is a pre existing condition?

    He would not sign the papers saying so, then he gets tortured into doing so?



    Wha!
  • FrancFFrancF Member, Moderator Posts: 35,278 ******
    edited November -1
    Listen to the audio...[;)]
  • KSUmarksmanKSUmarksman Member Posts: 10,705 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I hope they execute the POS responsible with a flamethrower!

    I doubt this poor soldier is the first or last...and whoever is in charge of this travesty needs to pay and die slow
  • FrancFFrancF Member, Moderator Posts: 35,278 ******
    edited November -1
    It's wrong to have our soldiers that do the time treated that way.
    <---- points to the commander in chief.[:(!]
  • PanzerSlayer2PanzerSlayer2 Member Posts: 1,798 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't think they are saying the mortar wound was the personality disorder. They are saying the mental state after the mortar wound was pre existing. That way they don't have to treat the post traumatic stress because "it was already there." The military is trying to weasel out of the mental care
  • swampgutswampgut Member Posts: 5,555
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by rcrxs old lady
    Mortar shells or PTSD even can't cause a personality disorder is what I'm saying. It's a cow cookies diagnosis.

    A childhood history of abuse/neglect causes a personality disorder.


    Nope.

    Genetics is way, way more likely to yield a personality disorder.

    Once one reaches adulthood whatever they are is what they were always meant to be for the most part.

    Genetics account for 80% of a person's or even an animal's behaviors. Only 20% can be explained by experiences.
  • swampgutswampgut Member Posts: 5,555
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by KSUmarksman
    I hope they execute the POS responsible with a flamethrower!

    I doubt this poor soldier is the first or last...and whoever is in charge of this travesty needs to pay and die slow


    Your government hates your guts.

    Get used to it.

    Stop fighting for another man's fortune.
  • JamesRKJamesRK Member Posts: 25,672 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I want to hear the other side of this story.
    The road to hell is paved with COMPROMISE.
  • bigoutsidebigoutside Member Posts: 19,443
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
    I want to hear the other side of this story.


    I'm not sure I understand THIS side of the story
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    Most of your "personality disorder" discharges actually benefit the Soldier. Most of them, from my observation, occur during Basic Training when a Soldier commits a crime that could result in a court martial or some type of other deviant behavior we won't get into. It saves the military time and resources when it's already spread thin, and it saves the Soldier from going through the long painful process of something far less desirable.

    If the report is true, this Soldier was not locked in a closet and forced to sign paperwork for the sake of saving the military money. Nobody cares about that type of cost at the lower Command levels.

    I watched one Soldier assault two different NCO's on two different occasions during a deployment to Iraq. It would have negatively impacted the mission if we were to go through the due process required to court-martial him. He brought that crap on himself. He was an NCO but got knocked down to PFC long before he even made it to the unit. A "personality disorder" discharge would have been a favor to both the Soldier and the military just for the sake of getting rid of him.

    "Medal Winning". That's rich. Some "medals" are handed to you if you simply take up space in the military for a certain amount of time. There are plenty of crooks, murderers, and rapists who are and who have been in the military at one point in time who were "medal winners". It's irrelevant.

    The article doesn't mention the dimensions of the closet and it doesn't mention what the Soldier did to get put there. Like I said, lower Command levels don't care how much it costs to discharge a Soldier correctly. It didn't make a bit of difference one way or the other to the Command how his "wounds" were sustained. PTSD, Personality Disorder, doggone sleepwalking. It makes no difference. That's one reason why this story stinks to high heaven.

    When a Soldier assaults another Soldier, NCO, or Officer in a combat zone, those in Command positions sometimes have little recourse and certainly have confinement authority. When bad behavior affects the safety of the unit and the unit's ability to fight and win, the Soldier brings it on himself.

    We're getting one side here. I'll bet that so-called "closet" had plenty of space to lie down, stretch out, and probably had ambient and/or artificial light. We're getting one side here and it's downright fishy.
  • guntech59guntech59 Member Posts: 23,193 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by idsman75
    Most of your "personality disorder" discharges actually benefit the Soldier. Most of them, from my observation, occur during Basic Training when a Soldier commits a crime that could result in a court martial or some type of other deviant behavior we won't get into. It saves the military time and resources when it's already spread thin, and it saves the Soldier from going through the long painful process of something far less desirable.

    If the report is true, this Soldier was not locked in a closet and forced to sign paperwork for the sake of saving the military money. Nobody cares about that type of cost at the lower Command levels.

    I watched one Soldier assault two different NCO's on two different occasions during a deployment to Iraq. It would have negatively impacted the mission if we were to go through the due process required to court-martial him. He brought that crap on himself. He was an NCO but got knocked down to PFC long before he even made it to the unit. A "personality disorder" discharge would have been a favor to both the Soldier and the military just for the sake of getting rid of him.

    "Medal Winning". That's rich. Some "medals" are handed to you if you simply take up space in the military for a certain amount of time. There are plenty of crooks, murderers, and rapists who are and who have been in the military at one point in time who were "medal winners". It's irrelevant.

    The article doesn't mention the dimensions of the closet and it doesn't mention what the Soldier did to get put there. Like I said, lower Command levels don't care how much it costs to discharge a Soldier correctly. It didn't make a bit of difference one way or the other to the Command how his "wounds" were sustained. PTSD, Personality Disorder, doggone sleepwalking. It makes no difference. That's one reason why this story stinks to high heaven.

    When a Soldier assaults another Soldier, NCO, or Officer in a combat zone, those in Command positions sometimes have little recourse and certainly have confinement authority. When bad behavior affects the safety of the unit and the unit's ability to fight and win, the Soldier brings it on himself.

    We're getting one side here. I'll bet that so-called "closet" had plenty of space to lie down, stretch out, and probably had ambient and/or artificial light. We're getting one side here and it's downright fishy.


    I agree with fishy, but you are making ALOT of assumptions.
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    My assumptions leave no more to the imagination than the story. Nobody gets locked in a closet by members of their unit or their Command to sign paperwork that mental injuries were the result of a pre-existing condition. It benefits the Command in no way, shape, or form.
  • dongizmodongizmo Member Posts: 14,477 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I draw the line at having panties put on my head.....
    Don
    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools.
  • tccoxtccox Member Posts: 8,417
    edited November -1
    Don, it might make a dfference if I knew who wore them last!! Tom
  • CA sucksCA sucks Member Posts: 4,310
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by swampgut
    quote:Originally posted by rcrxs old lady
    Mortar shells or PTSD even can't cause a personality disorder is what I'm saying. It's a cow cookies diagnosis.

    A childhood history of abuse/neglect causes a personality disorder.


    Nope.

    Genetics is way, way more likely to yield a personality disorder.

    Once one reaches adulthood whatever they are is what they were always meant to be for the most part.

    Genetics account for 80% of a person's or even an animal's behaviors. Only 20% can be explained by experiences.


    95% of statistics given in arguments are simply unsupported assertions.
  • swampgutswampgut Member Posts: 5,555
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by CA sucks
    quote:Originally posted by swampgut
    quote:Originally posted by rcrxs old lady
    Mortar shells or PTSD even can't cause a personality disorder is what I'm saying. It's a cow cookies diagnosis.

    A childhood history of abuse/neglect causes a personality disorder.


    Nope.

    Genetics is way, way more likely to yield a personality disorder.

    Once one reaches adulthood whatever they are is what they were always meant to be for the most part.

    Genetics account for 80% of a person's or even an animal's behaviors. Only 20% can be explained by experiences.


    95% of statistics given in arguments are simply unsupported assertions.


    Clearly they are in your posts.

    I have the education to back up what I post.
  • Queen of SwordsQueen of Swords Member Posts: 14,355
    edited November -1
    The old "nature vs. nurture" argument.

    I, too, have an education, and experience in the field...

    I'm not going to argue statistics, numbers can be manipulated to support any argument (look at the whole "climate change" arguement). I believe as Twain said, "There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

    Admittedly, both have a role to play. Genetic predisposition isn't destiny.
  • SWAT 50SWAT 50 Member Posts: 4,209
    edited November -1
    I recall when Bammy said our soldiers don't need any kind of compensation for injuries incurred while serving there country, They Volunteered.
  • lpaalplpaalp Member Posts: 938 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bull poop.

    The reporter writes misdirected, intentionally inflammatory rhetoric for "The Nation" - a weekly, self described as "the flagship of the left."

    The veteran's testimony, and medical records/personal history, indicates he is a low performer preparing for mandatory retirement (20 years) by stacking his medical records to insure he can ride a health disability pension for the rest of his life.

    I do not understand how anyone can so quickly believe the entire US Army is "out to get" one soldier, for whatever reason. Some of you need to do just a little research before reflexivbely condemning our major institutions.
  • TrinityScrimshawTrinityScrimshaw Member Posts: 9,309 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I smell a rat.

    Active military units don't have any say in what your medical disability is. The most a commander can do is substantiate or unsubstantiated a claim for disability, but even then it is all in the hands of medical staff & the VA. A commander of a unit only signs the documents that the medical doctors put in front of them. They can't sway a service member's condition to be any less than it actually is.

    On another note, if the members of any unit I was ever assigned to ever found out that the command was locking up one of their fellow soldiers in a closet under these conditions, and for these reasons, all hell would break lose.[}:)]

    I bet this soldier freaked out mentally, and medical personally felt he was a threat to himself or others. Since there probably wasn't a rubber room in a combat environment to secure him in, he may have been placed in a secure area with a guard until he could be shipped out. That secure area could have been any place expedient at the time.

    In a combat environment service members have to adapt & over come to many diverse situations. Dealing with the sick lame & lazy has always been a hindrance to accomplishing the mission.

    Trinity +++
  • PATBUZZARDPATBUZZARD Member Posts: 3,556
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by idsman75
    Most of your "personality disorder" discharges actually benefit the Soldier. Most of them, from my observation, occur during Basic Training when a Soldier commits a crime that could result in a court martial or some type of other deviant behavior we won't get into. It saves the military time and resources when it's already spread thin, and it saves the Soldier from going through the long painful process of something far less desirable.

    If the report is true, this Soldier was not locked in a closet and forced to sign paperwork for the sake of saving the military money. Nobody cares about that type of cost at the lower Command levels.

    I watched one Soldier assault two different NCO's on two different occasions during a deployment to Iraq. It would have negatively impacted the mission if we were to go through the due process required to court-martial him. He brought that crap on himself. He was an NCO but got knocked down to PFC long before he even made it to the unit. A "personality disorder" discharge would have been a favor to both the Soldier and the military just for the sake of getting rid of him.

    "Medal Winning". That's rich. Some "medals" are handed to you if you simply take up space in the military for a certain amount of time. There are plenty of crooks, murderers, and rapists who are and who have been in the military at one point in time who were "medal winners". It's irrelevant.

    The article doesn't mention the dimensions of the closet and it doesn't mention what the Soldier did to get put there. Like I said, lower Command levels don't care how much it costs to discharge a Soldier correctly. It didn't make a bit of difference one way or the other to the Command how his "wounds" were sustained. PTSD, Personality Disorder, doggone sleepwalking. It makes no difference. That's one reason why this story stinks to high heaven.

    When a Soldier assaults another Soldier, NCO, or Officer in a combat zone, those in Command positions sometimes have little recourse and certainly have confinement authority. When bad behavior affects the safety of the unit and the unit's ability to fight and win, the Soldier brings it on himself.

    We're getting one side here. I'll bet that so-called "closet" had plenty of space to lie down, stretch out, and probably had ambient and/or artificial light. We're getting one side here and it's downright fishy.


    This all makes sense, something is missing in this story.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member Posts: 59,649 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    and other torture is NOT very disturbing?
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • JasonVJasonV Member Posts: 2,258 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This story is pretty much BS as written. Some others have already pointed this out.

    One thing that stuck out at me is the author claims this is done to save money for the military due to disability payments. The military doesn't pay disability!
    formerly known as warpig883
  • john6012john6012 Member Posts: 97 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I thought the military DID pay disability and then the VA pays as well????
  • couch commandocouch commando Member Posts: 3 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yeah, this story is fishy! Military does not pay disability, they only sign the paperwork showing you were wounded or injured. The VA pays any disability pay. And the men in any given unit would react pretty badly to one of their own being treated as this guy claims he was treated. Can you say "FRAGGING"? I was in Viet Nam in the Corps, and while there were no reported fragging incidents in USMC units, There were a ton of them in Army units. I'd say this guy wagged out mentally, so he was locked up to keep him and others safe, until they were able to get him out of there.
  • wittynbearwittynbear Member Posts: 4,518
    edited November -1
    The military doesn't pay disability per se. They pay medical retirement if they kick you out against your will on medical discharge. Usually they try to get out of it by giving you 0% if they can. I had to go to SJA, get a civilian attorney, and hold it up in court for a few years before I got 40% out of the Marine Corps. The navy docs were 100% sure that I would never be able to run again or carry a heavy pack on a long hike again. In the end the court believed them and not me. They were wrong on both accounts. I lost all faith in military medical officers, i'd rather go to a witchdoctor, or the VA, probably get the same level of care.
  • grumpygygrumpygy Member Posts: 53,466
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by john6012
    I thought the military DID pay disability and then the VA pays as well????


    Sort of. The Military will Medically Retire you. The Va Will pay you a disability but it will be Minus what the Military pays you.

    The only way out of it is to serve at least 20 and draw regular Military retirement and the VA payment.
  • MMOMEQ-55MMOMEQ-55 Member Posts: 13,134
    edited November -1
    I bet the same people who believe this BS believe the BS about Global Warming.
  • wpagewpage Member Posts: 10,191 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wonder what modern military would classify "shell shock" as with today's myriad of terms?
  • mrseatlemrseatle Member Posts: 15,806
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by idsman75
    My assumptions leave no more to the imagination than the story. Nobody gets locked in a closet by members of their unit or their Command to sign paperwork that mental injuries were the result of a pre-existing condition. It benefits the Command in no way, shape, or form.


    You must have led a sheltered life. There are some perverted homos out there...
  • cactuspete1cactuspete1 Member Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Why are there more mental disorders coming out of todays conflicts than any other conflict we were ever in? They have shorter tours, more comforts of life at their disposal, I know dudes claiming PTSD that were not even close to a combat unit.[:0]
  • MaxOHMSMaxOHMS Member Posts: 14,715
    edited November -1
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