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Today (Friday) is 10 years since Waco fiasco
offeror
Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
Ten years ago today (Friday) the feds assaulted the Waco, Texas, compound and the stand-off began. Recently, feds have claimed they NEVER FIRED A SHOT into the compound -- though Koresh himself was wounded for several days prior to the fire that climaxed the stand-off.
Koresh was a dangerous jerk, of course, and may have been sexually abusing minors, but the plan to serve the warrant was faulty, and the cult he led was tipped off in advance of the raid, assuring a fiasco that tragically cost some feds their lives, and led to the standoff that eventually cost most of the cult their lives as well. The truth seems to be that the feds could have picked up Koresh (not his real name) any one of several times he ventured into town to shop. Instead, they tried to serve a warrant to 1) arrest Koresh and 2) search for a cache of weapons and alleged explosives, by surrounding the compound with SWAT-styled troops armed with M-16s. The result was, the feds were ambushed instead, shot at through the walls of the compound and wounded or killed without ever achieving their objectives.
The mess turned into a stand-off, with telephone negotiations and Koresh giving and breaking his word a number of times.
Law enforcement played loud irritating music from huge speakers pointed toward the compound, day and night (Nancy Sinatra's "These Boots Are Made for Walkin'" was one that droned over and over) as psychological warfare. After 51 days, someone decided things had gone on long enough, and ordered tear gas to be inserted -- despite the fact that tear gas is often introduced using flammable sources -- apparently in the belief that the families would certainly send the women and children running out, at a minimum. Instead, the place burned down with no one emerging.
Later, aerial night-vision video came to light, purporting to show small commando units circling the compound and shooting any cult member who came near an exit and showed themselves. Also, at least one protest group claimed that video of the tanks used to insert the tear gas clearly showed "pilot lights" which they said were intentionally used to start the fires -- although the feds maintained that the fires were started by suicidal cult members.
None of these conspiracy theories was ever proven one way or the other. The only real lessons learned were that the feds were not entitled to run out of patience, that they should have snatched Koresh when he went into town rather than laying seige to the entire compound, and that families under the influence of a cult may choose death if pushed to the wall by tear gas and incendiaries. We also learned, I think, that Americans, even when brainwashed, deserve a chance to walk out alive.
There was some argument over whether the cult had enough weapons to cause the BATF concern, given the number of otherwise law-abiding citizens in the "church." There were allegations of one or two .50 BMG guns being among the guns in the arsenal, but initial reports that they were fired at the feds turned out to be questionable. As for explosives, there were no large explosions during the fire.
None of this is meant to suggest any sympathy for "Koresh." I merely record that I hope by now the feds have a better contingency plan for dealing with a large group of mostly innocent Americans, including spouses and children, who have fallen in with an apocalyptic religious cult. Beware of false prophets... they, when mixed with feds, can get you killed...
Life NRA Member
T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
Koresh was a dangerous jerk, of course, and may have been sexually abusing minors, but the plan to serve the warrant was faulty, and the cult he led was tipped off in advance of the raid, assuring a fiasco that tragically cost some feds their lives, and led to the standoff that eventually cost most of the cult their lives as well. The truth seems to be that the feds could have picked up Koresh (not his real name) any one of several times he ventured into town to shop. Instead, they tried to serve a warrant to 1) arrest Koresh and 2) search for a cache of weapons and alleged explosives, by surrounding the compound with SWAT-styled troops armed with M-16s. The result was, the feds were ambushed instead, shot at through the walls of the compound and wounded or killed without ever achieving their objectives.
The mess turned into a stand-off, with telephone negotiations and Koresh giving and breaking his word a number of times.
Law enforcement played loud irritating music from huge speakers pointed toward the compound, day and night (Nancy Sinatra's "These Boots Are Made for Walkin'" was one that droned over and over) as psychological warfare. After 51 days, someone decided things had gone on long enough, and ordered tear gas to be inserted -- despite the fact that tear gas is often introduced using flammable sources -- apparently in the belief that the families would certainly send the women and children running out, at a minimum. Instead, the place burned down with no one emerging.
Later, aerial night-vision video came to light, purporting to show small commando units circling the compound and shooting any cult member who came near an exit and showed themselves. Also, at least one protest group claimed that video of the tanks used to insert the tear gas clearly showed "pilot lights" which they said were intentionally used to start the fires -- although the feds maintained that the fires were started by suicidal cult members.
None of these conspiracy theories was ever proven one way or the other. The only real lessons learned were that the feds were not entitled to run out of patience, that they should have snatched Koresh when he went into town rather than laying seige to the entire compound, and that families under the influence of a cult may choose death if pushed to the wall by tear gas and incendiaries. We also learned, I think, that Americans, even when brainwashed, deserve a chance to walk out alive.
There was some argument over whether the cult had enough weapons to cause the BATF concern, given the number of otherwise law-abiding citizens in the "church." There were allegations of one or two .50 BMG guns being among the guns in the arsenal, but initial reports that they were fired at the feds turned out to be questionable. As for explosives, there were no large explosions during the fire.
None of this is meant to suggest any sympathy for "Koresh." I merely record that I hope by now the feds have a better contingency plan for dealing with a large group of mostly innocent Americans, including spouses and children, who have fallen in with an apocalyptic religious cult. Beware of false prophets... they, when mixed with feds, can get you killed...
Life NRA Member
T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
Comments
As far as the charges of child molestation is concerned, it was never proved that Koresh was a child molester-the one girl who came forward, was completely discredited-turned out her parents were busting Koreshs stones. EVEN if he was a child molester, that does not give the authority to the federal government to initiate a raid. Child molestation is a matter for the states, it is not a federal issue. I remember Reno blabbing about accusations of molestation to justify the raid, but the feds had no authority to intervene in these areas to begin with.
"..filling a need and helping people-thats self determination and free enterprise backing itself up all the way-thats why we are in Europe stopping Hitler."
-Edgar Derby
I am highly familiar with this case--I testified at the trial in San Antonio. And by the way, there was never one illegal firearm produced as evidence. They all got "conveniently" burned up in the fire.
You can put this down: the Dividians were victims of agencies out of control.
Rafter-S
"What is truth? No wonder jesting Pilate turned away. The truth, it has a thousand faces -- show only one of them, and the whole truth flies away! But how to show the whole? That is the question."
--Thomas Wolfe, "You Can't Go Home Again" (1934)
Life NRA Member
T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
What crimes did Koresh really commit? Maybe he had some questionable firearms, how many of them being felony and how many misdemeanor?
I say his biggest goofup was he thought he was Jesus and he spoke out aganist the government. He said he would defend his home and his beliefs, he did, to the end. Was his death justified? Only he will know that answer. Was the raid justifed? Only the real planners of the raid will know that. We may never hear the absolute truth so we need to listen to the stories we hear and make up our own minds. At first when all of this was happening and the time after the raid, I was on the feds side. I thought they went after satan himself, then what I feel as the truth came out and changed my mind, now I feel for David Koresh, even he he was wacky andf thought he was Jesus, but hey this is America right? If he wanted to belive he was Jesus, then so be it!
Ok, how did I do?[:D]
I have yet to see ONE illegal weapon seized in the raid.
The Feds knew they were making a frontal assault on a fortified position where people would violently resist, and HAD ADVANCE NOTICE of the raid. Now, HOW STUPID IS THAT?
They also knew there were women and children present and went anyway. The Feds exercised extremely poor judgement. I am no expert on tactics, but I can think of at least two alternative methods that do not involve walking into an ambush just to make a grandstand play for budget time.
And, our local Sheriff recently hired for his Chief Deputy, a retired BAT-man who was one of the raid leaders, and thinks he is great stuff. This, to me, was not a selling point.
SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
You had better cool-it. Talk like this could bring swarms of black-suited, masked, machinegun toting, high-top booted, beer bellied swat-sheriffs around your house.[;)]
not to attempt to defend koresh
but I do not believe he would would have
killed any child. that elevates him in my mind
to the pointIMHO that any of his attackers,up
to and including klintons, dodering old lesbian
lap dog, would have made a pimple on his a**.
To assume that after setting the coumpound
on fire that the children would or could come out
could not have more than a premediated
calculated risk and any one willing to burn
innocent children inside or outside the law
is as pappy used to say not worth the powder
and lead it would take to blow them to the
hottest corner of hell.
Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
Who are the criminals?
I agree that the feds' tactics were trumped up, overdone, and unworthy of a body representing the U.S. government. Not to mention criminal in terms of assaulting a fortified location with children inside and causing mass deaths.
Life NRA Member
T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
"..filling a need and helping people-thats self determination and free enterprise backing itself up all the way-thats why we are in Europe stopping Hitler."
-Edgar Derby
Where was the McClennan County Sheriff? Why did he let the Federal usurpers run amok in his county? Did he abrogate his authority as the CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OF THE COUNTY?
You betcha he did.
There are very few men in law enforcement anymore, and that is one reason I am glad to be retiring from the profession in a few years.
Rafter-S, our Sheriff is Don Anderson, a retired Texas Ranger and a decent, honest, fearless man. Why he was impressed with the BAT-man's credentials is a mystery to me. I don't worry about being raided. Bunch of good ol' boys on the SO SWAT team, wouldn't bother me. The ones on the team that use the shotgun, I TRAINED.
SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
If you do a little research, you will find that the Secretary of the Treasury under Bill Clinton was former Texas Senator Loyd Benson. At the time of this raid, Clinton was trying to convince the public to support gun control. The South was the real problem, and Texas especially.
I believe Benson used his contacts in Texas to set up a large raid to show the country, especially Texans, how bad the illegal gun problem had become. I believe this was a staged event for the news media. That's why they were tipped off and were there.
It went wrong, and lots of people where killed. Clinton, Reno, Benson, the BATF, and the FBI are all to blame.
On another note, remember that they had cut off the power to the compound. The people inside were using open flames for light and to cook with. It was a windy day (30-40 MPH winds) and they wanted to insert tear gas. In the wind, tear gas disperses quickly. Kerosine is used to weight it in windy conditions so it won't disperse so quickly. If you inject atomized kerosine over an open flame, what happens? Who do you think started a fire in winds that would fuel it to an inferno?
Just my opinion.
Measure twice, cut once.
Empty the clip!
I always assumed the feds trumped local law enforcement on matters like this one. In any case, I would not argue with anyone with superior knowledge of the subject matter. I still don't think rock star wannabe Koresh (his stage name) was somebody I'd care to know or have anything to do with. Nevertheless, they don't shoot you for being an American Idol reject...
Life NRA Member
T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
THis was at one time a regular practice in this country. One example, occuring around the inception of this nation, was when the supreme court involved itself in a case between Georgia and one of its citizens. The state of Georgia saw this usurpation by the supreme court as unconstitutional. Georgia did not obey the ruling, and passed a law, stating if any federal agents attempted to enforce the unconstitutional law, they would be "hung without the benefit of clergy". Needless to say, no federal agents went to Georgia to enforce the law.
Another example is the nullification of the alien and sedition acts. The states of virginia and Kentucky objected to laws that were passed, and nullified the unconstitutional federal laws-no federal agents went in to enforce the unconstitutional laws.
What could Texas have done? They could have objected like crazy to the Feds wanting to go in and raid the compound.They could have told them that they would not allow them to trample on the rights of their citizens. At the least, it would have held things up for awhile.
And after the raid started, they could have sent law enforcement in, to prevent the Feds from continuing the raid. What would the feds do? They gonna start a shootout with Texas law enforcement. If Texas stood in the way, just a little bit, the feds would have backed down, and they certainly would not have sent tanks and helicopters in. The feds faced absolutely no resistance from the Texas authority, so they could do whatever they pleased. A little resistance from the state, and Waco would have gone another way.
"..filling a need and helping people-thats self determination and free enterprise backing itself up all the way-thats why we are in Europe stopping Hitler."
-Edgar Derby
Are there modern-day examples of the states seriously challenging the feds in such a way, or is this one of those "we don't have to pay taxes" type arguments? I agree Texas could have done something, but they probably had no idea how outrageously poor the feds' plan was, in their defense. Who could have predicted the feds would keep away firetrucks, EMTs, and continue to hold the media 2 miles off?
We could have had a better view of things from the Hubble telescope than the media position afforded.
Life NRA Member
T. Jefferson: "[When doing Constitutional interpretation], let us [go] back to the time when [it] was adopted. [Rather than] invent a meaning [let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
Koresh was an idiot in my opinion, but there were a lot of idiots involved in this scenario. He could've been arrested any Saturday night in a biker bar where he like to play his terrible music, but they chose to make a statement with a large posse on TV.
I've been to the site, and won't go back --- got a terrible eerie feeling there --- all those people lost their lives over stupidity.
I had a terrible eerie feeling at San Antonio when the trial was going on. The feeling was possibly even spiritual...but it was telling me something very bad was going on--something I didn't want to be a part of. When one of the Branch Dividians would walk by, even the women and kids, I could feel it in the atmosphere. My hair would stand on end. I was wondering if this was a pivit point where our nation was taking a turn for the worse...or God was very displeased.
Rafter-S
It is kind of funny. Bad enough they are gonna hang the offender, but to screw them in the after life by denying them clergy-thats viscious.
I seem to remember very recently that a state denied a federal law. I think it had to do with homeland security, and I believe the state was Washington or Oregon. Ill have to check on the details, but I remember hearing or reading about it.
"..filling a need and helping people-thats self determination and free enterprise backing itself up all the way-thats why we are in Europe stopping Hitler."
-Edgar Derby