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Daughter Disappointed Me With Her Views..

tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
edited July 2004 in General Discussion
My 22 yearold gun-loving daughter received a notice from the county court to appear in court to be considered for jury duty. Now I support and believe in citizens volunteering for jury duty because that is the only way someone can hope for a fair trial. But my daughter has some cirumstances which I honestly feel should exempt her from being forced to serve for an undetermined period on a jury; or even have to take the time to show up in court to present her problems with doing so.

My daughter is a single mother and is basically the 24/7 caregive of my 19 month old grandson. They both live in an apartment which is the entire finished basement of our house. Living there is free, but to cover other expenses she has a part-time job at a local university. She does not have nor can she afford a babysitter or daycare. At this point in her life, later for sure, she does not need to struggle to find someone to babysit her baby, miss work, and go in to provide jury service for the courts for $10.00 per day in payment. The judge and lawyers are sure as He!! getting much, much more than $10.00 per day.

Anyway, here is how I was mildly disappointed with my daughter's reaction to receiving the summons. I asked her if she was going to fight and protest the summons on her time and the stated court requirement that if she had a child she would be required to find a babysitter at her expense. I was disappointed when she responded by saying she didn't know she was allowed to protest the situation. I was disappointed that she would react to a government demand upon her and that she would react as if it was a demand from, for example, her employer.

I have always tried to educate her that the citizens are "supposed" to own the government (courts, etc); the government is not supposed to "own" the citizens.


Have I got this right or wrong?

Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"

Comments

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    Red223Red223 Member Posts: 7,946
    edited November -1
    Right.

    You won't see John Kerry sitting on a jury this year.

    awcountdown.gifIt wasn't only the Bill Clinton Gun Ban- without Bill Ruger there would of been no ban .
    MichaelMooreFatStupid.gif
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    Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 39,538 ***** Forums Admin
    edited November -1
    Most of america are scared to bow their neck at the gov't and assert their rights. That is exactly why this country is in the shape it is in now.

    Aberdeen.gif
    81st FA BN WWII...Thanks Dad
    U!S!A! ALL THE WAY!!
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    3gunner3gunner Member Posts: 489 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Another view. If your daughter was charged with a serious crime that she truely was not guilty of, would you rather her be judged solely by the government and bow to thier demands or to have an opportunity to be judged by 12 of her peers? Based on some of your previous post I would guess you would favor a jury trial. But the jurors have got to show up to do the job. We all have situations that would make jury duty unwanted, family, kids, work, etc. etc. Sometimes you just suck it up and do the right thing.

    Just think, there may be a father somewhere waiting for his child's day in court. Hoping that he will receive a fair jury and a fair trial of his peers. I always hear everyone complaining about the control of the government. But this is one area that the government has given the control to the people and alot of people are still complaining. I don't get it.

    If the shoe was on the other foot, what would your position be?????
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    idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Unfortunately, pretty much everyone in the jury pool has a similar or equally meritorious circumstance. Somebody is going to have to close down the small business that they run and are going to screw over a bunch of loyal customers by whom they put bread on the table for their family. Somebody who works minimum wage and lives from paycheck to paycheck is going to have to miss work and find him or herself in dire straits. Somebody has a spouse who is about to go into surgery and needs care during the day.

    I got summoned for jury duty a few months ago. My Commander told me that he didn't care if I got selected for jury duty. He didn't care that it was going to last at least two weeks. I was to return to work after jury duty and start my work day if I had to work 15 hours and get one hour of sleep. The judge didn't bite off on it and neither did the attorneys. I spoke my mind and my opinions during the interview process and was incredibly candid about my belief in black-and-white and the fact that I didn't put much stock in "mitigating circumstances" generally speaking. I even embarassed the defense attorney during the interview process right in front of the whole jury pool because he couldn't read his own notes and answered a question the way it was supposed to be answered instead of the way he asked it. That was pretty funny.
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    mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    I think she showed you that she is a stand up person by shouldering the added burden of serving on a jury in addition to all the other demands on her time. NO ONE wants to waste a day sitting in a jury room but having a jury of your peers is the conerstone of the criminal justice system in this country. If we depended solely on people volunteering for jury duty you'd be left with pretty much retirees and other folks who tend not to have the demands of work and raising a family (and yes I know all about the guy here on GB who is raising his grand children) rather than a broad spectrum of individuals who are your peers. As a self employeed small business owner when I get called to jury duty there is no work being performed by yours truely that day and no money made but this is the price I willingly pay for living in a free society where I can get the closest thing possible to a fair trial if I were to ever need it myself. I'll bet your pal Ronnie of Delta Sales would have appreciated your daughter sitting on the jury at his trial!

    Mark T. Christian
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    TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 8,275 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dissapointment? Have your 21yr old stepdaughter come and tell you Michael Moore's film was inspiring and it exposed the the "truth"![:(]

    "Aim small...Miss small"
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    OK, OK, ya got me! I can now see both sides. I guess it is just that everytime the government tries to tell me I "must" alter my life at their direction (or that of my daughter) my first impluse is to say "F*ck You!" to them, but that is just me.

    BTW Mark C., you have got a LONG and GOOD memory. I am pretty much convinced you don't really exist as person but are actually a government computer housed somewhere in a government building monitering and responding to people like me (LOL).

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Think about it when you are wrongfully arrested (seen it happen lots) or are being sued for farting upwind from your neighbor. It would be nice to have a jury of your peers instead of one man deciding on your fate.
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    chorkiechorkie Member Posts: 2,477 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    So what if you have to "serve " once or twice in a lifetime, it makes you a better American. I certainly would rather be judged by a group of ordinary people than by a judge (who is thinking of getting re-elected or appointed). Sometimes it isn't just about "ME".
    Chorkie

    ???
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    ZERODINZERODIN Member Posts: 6,338
    edited November -1
    "When the government fears the people, there is liberty; when the people fear the government, there is tyranny." - possibly Thomas Jefferson but I can't find any better citation than one with a question mark on it. Regardless, it's true.
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    kimberkidkimberkid Member Posts: 8,857 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've been called up for jury duty twice, once for local and once for federal court ... both worked with me ... local excused me for a week during finals and Federal excused me for a week when I was moving.

    In both cases I just had to take a written statement to the clerk of the court and it was approved ... now granted, I wasn't excused from my whole term but I was excused for the time I requested and didn't have to make it up.

    BTW - I never had to serve on an actual jury ... just because you get called doesn't mean you will have to serve.
    .
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    If you really want to do something, you'll find a way ...
    ... If you don't, you'll find any excuse.
    If you really desire something, you'll find a way ?
    ? otherwise, you'll find an excuse.
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    idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Watching due process in action is a fascinating and educational experience. I was selected to be a member of the 24-person jury pool. I was one of the 12 that was weeded out. I wanted to serve but didn't want to feel the wrath of the Commander. There is no way I could have balanced my military duties with jury duty. One would have suffered.

    I think the defendant's attorney didn't like the fact that I had bought a brand new car from the plaintiff in the last 9 months and had nothing but great things to say about the dealership.
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    dcon12dcon12 Member Posts: 31,965 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have served on 2 grand juries and 1 petit jury. I learned much on the time I served. People fear what they do not know. Time is not watsted unless you waste it. Don

    "I would not mind being the last man on earth just to see if all those girls were telling me the truth"
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    bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    personal bad breaks in life dont exempt one from civil duty and resposiblities. the purpose of jury duty is to effect the lives of the ones on trial, not the ones on jury duty. in my opinion, i appluad your daughters response. let the court decide if her hardships are too hard for her when they ask if there is any reason she shouldnt be on duty. otherwise, its 'fit for duty' until proven otherwise.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Well, ok then. I'll guess I'll just stand quietly by while the highly paid people who run the court that issued the jury duty summons to my daughter make her find a daycare/babysitter because up to now she (and us) have purposely avoided sending her baby out for anyone other than family to care for that baby. So, at the direction of the court we will now place our daughter's baby in the hands of strangers. And I might add we will have few ways to determine how that baby is treated by the new strangers because the baby can't talk yet. We will do this even though for 19 months we have went out of our way to avoid doing this. Just so the court can use our daughter as a juror.

    And I might add, as expensive as daycare is around here, if she has to pay, for example, one weeks worth of day care, that will wipe out about a month's worth of her parttime job income.

    Seems fair to me. Or does it? How about if instead the court waits until at least the child is in school before they turn my daughter into, not only unpaid labor, but a laborer who has to pay and pay big to work for the court?

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    96harley96harley Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    tr...I don't like the gov telling me to do things any more than you do. Fact is she and you should consider it an honor to be called. That's one of the few areas in this nation where the common citizen can hold the reputation of a person; past, present, and future in their hands. The person on trial is dependant and his very bieng is in the hands of what we hope to be his fair and impartial peers.

    Believe me, I have been in court facing the accused as a defense witness. Even though I may detest the person I'm facing I just present the facts. I have never tainted my testimony to get someone put away. Sometimes I am sure this ticks the prosecutor but I have to realize all I am is an instrument through which facts are exposed with no opinions or preferences of my own. I have seen our court system work and those who I had arrested walk free. I always make it a point to walk up to them after the trial, shake their hand, and tell them, "This is a great country we live in. Omce again the court system has done it's job." On the cases the defendant loses, I don't do this.

    Try to look at it as blessing instead of a curse. Were it not for the grace of God you or I might be seated at the accused table with our hearts in the hands of folks like your daughter.

    "Save the Whalers, they need jobs too."
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    robomanroboman Member Posts: 6,436
    edited November -1
    A month or so ago I was part of a pool of 50+ people to be selected for 3 trials. Amazingly I was selected for all three [xx(]. Thank god two of the cases were resolved through pleas.

    I think everyone should have to serve on a jury. I will admit that when I went into my one trial, I found myself already pissed off at the guy. I thought he was a dick for wasting my time on what seemed to be a slam dunk for the DA. Instead he defended himself and I realized that he while he may have been guilty, there prosecution did not convince the jury he was guilty. I find that to be a beautiful thing in our criminal justice system. Just the words "Innocent until proven guilty." seem like so little but really mean so much.

    I now know that I will always opt for a trial by my peers.


    signew.JPG
    aniGif.gif
    "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long..."
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    good and truthful words.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    pipskickspipskicks Member Posts: 3,049
    edited November -1
    I am with you tr, although I see where she is coming from, and I know for a fact they have gotten stricter on their jurt duty rules.

    What is alarming is how many people do not register to vote BECAUSE of jury duty (I have quite a few friends like this, kind of ridiculous). But I too fret having to go to jury duty, I can get off for school but they will send me a letter as soon as I am out of school, and when I am out of school I don't get financial aid, and when I don't get financial aid if I miss a day of work, I don't have money to eat, so jury duty really is crappy for some people.

    Many people have a salary and DO ENJOY going to jury duty because they are there for less than 8 hours and get paid for 8 from their job, they can surely go instead of us po folks.

    "Girls often say it's not the size of the boat, and it's the motion of the ocean, well I'll tell you this it takes a hell of a long time to get to England on a row boat"
    "Marrying for sex is like taking a plane ride for peanuts"
    -Jeff Foxworthy
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    timberbeasttimberbeast Member Posts: 1,738 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The way I figure it, if she's lucky enough to have a Dad who lets her live in his house for free, and if she's old enough to have had a child, she damned well better get a full-time job right now. She has a child to support. Sounds like her whining about jury duty is the same self-indulgent crap that prevents her from working to support her child. It's time to grow up. Fast. Once you bring someone into childhood, yours is over.
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    bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    Had she known she could get a hardship pass and still wanted to serve, I would be most proud of my daughter.

    040103cowboy_shooting_one_gun_md_clr_prv.gifBig Daddy my heros have always been cowboys,they still are it seems
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    HAIRYHAIRY Member Posts: 23,606
    edited November -1
    Wow, I didn't know CITIZENSHIP's responsibilities were so tough.

    It's too bad that citizenship is simply granted upon being born in the US. I'd prefer EVERY aspiring person who wants the responsibilities and privileges of our country have to take a written and oral examination--and pass it--before citizenship would be granted.

    Talk to people who immigrated to the US and then obtained their citizenship and you'll find some very proud people who look forward to their rights; unlike those who were merely "dropped off" by their mother. [;)][}:)]

    Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
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    beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hairy....X-Ring!!! Beach
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    kimberkidkimberkid Member Posts: 8,857 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    tr-
    After reading this thread it seems strange that you would have a signature line like this: quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"When it seems like you yourself want them "bent" to what's convenient for you ...quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    I have always tried to educate her that the citizens are "supposed" to own the government (courts, etc); the government is not supposed to "own" the citizens.Freedom isn't free ... remember?
    .
    .
    .
    If you really want to do something, you'll find a way ...
    ... If you don't, you'll find any excuse.
    If you really desire something, you'll find a way ?
    ? otherwise, you'll find an excuse.
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Man! Can't a guy get some sympathy around here!('[:)]') Oh well, there is always my pillow to cry into.

    Really, the main point I was trying to make (apparently I failed big time) was that I was disappointed that my daughter did not even think of the fact that if she so chose, and for good or bad reasons depending upon how many of you look at it, she had the right to challange or resist the courts demand that she locate and pay a daycare/babysitter (up til now we have had neither for the baby) in order to appear in court either just to report and go home or even to be chosen as a juror and have to have and pay someone else to care for her baby for who knows how long. That was my main point that everytime a citizen is contacted by any government agency, it should be remembered that agency works for the citizen; the citizen does not work for the agency. And I believe in citizens performing their lawful duty. But unlike many here I believe, that unless my daughter is the one and only person who is available or qualified for this jury duty, then it is fair and reasonable to wait until she is not the ONLY 24/7 caregiver OF A BABY FOR GAWD'S SAKE! Now what is unamerican or unreasonable about that?

    I'm sure that most of us, back when they had a military draft, felt that if we or our children were needed and called then we should go. But I am willing to bet money that most everyone here, and even the ones who disagree with me so far, would agree that sometimes becasue of family circumstances it is fair and reasonable to defer that military service for a reasonable time.

    For example, if the citizen called for the draft has an elderly parent or one of their childen that has come to need daily and constant care and that citizen truly feels, and can prove it, that there is basically no one other than them that can, or will, provide such care. In such a case it would seem fair that citizen would be granted a "deferment" until their home problem is resolved. Unless of course that particular citizen called for duty IS THE ONLY PERSON IN THE USA THAT CAN DO THE MILITARY JOB IN QUESTION. Which is not likely and certainaly does not apply to my daughter being the only person who can perform jury duty.

    To the many of you who have stated in so many words that you do not agree with my wanting a temporary excemption for my daughter. I would tell you that even though you don't believe in "extenuating" circumstances and an exemption for my daughter in this case, I strong believe you DO believe in extenuating circustances and exemptions for YOURSELVES.

    For example, have you never felt just a tiny bit ill and called your employer and gave yourself the day off? You could have gone to work and you know it. And your employer obviously needed you or WHY WOULD YOU HAVE A JOB TO BEGIN WITH? And that was a situation where you are getting paid a living wage to be where you are supposed to be. Not performing jury duty for "free" while you pay a daycare/baby sitter you have to find at the last minute.

    Have you or a relative or close friend never been stopped by the police for weaving, speeding, etc. and you/they asked for "special" treatment because you/they were rushing someone/yourself to the hospital, or speeding trying get to a pay phone to make a 9-1-1 call, or weaving because there was an angry hornet flying around your head? I am sure something vaguely like this has happened to you and at that time you either asked for or agreed with "special situtions sometimes deserve special but temporary treatment"

    Timberbeast: Being the only 24/7 caregiver for a 19 month old is "a full-time job" BECAUSE our family has chosen to not have this baby in daycare/babysitter until he is old enough to talk and be able to some degree tell us what kind of treatment he gets at the daycare/babysitter. Surely you have noticed the disturginly high number of evil, perverted people that appear on the news as having abused children for years before being caught. We refuse to put any helpless relative of ours in a situation whereas it could happen to them and being a baby who isn't talking yet COULDN'T EVEN TELL US WHAT KIND OF HORRORS HE WAS GOING THROUGH! In addition she does work a partime job because she is able to take her baby to work. And by the way, she was not "whining" about her jury duty, I am.

    Hairy: I was not and am not requesting a LIFETIME EXEMPTION FROM JURY DUTY FOR MY DAUGHTER. The above part about calling off sick or asking for special treatment from the police applies to you too. I am merely stating that my daughter has a TEMPORARY circumstances to whereas she should be given a TEMPORARY EXCEMPTION.

    Kimberkid: Uh..yeah, "bent" because of a temporary circumstances, not "bent" for no reason nor "bent" for life. And as previously stated my disappointment was that she didn't even stop to think that ANYTIME any government tells you you MUST do this or that you should stop and think if they have the right to make that command on your life. In a healthy democracy no citizen should get a command from their government and follow that command as a child being guided by their parent. Now who here can disagree with this last statment?



    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
    Wow, I didn't know CITIZENSHIP's responsibilities were so tough.



    Its worse than that. Not only is serving on a jury a responsibility, it is a RIGHT guaranteed in the sixth amendment of the constitution. It is an important right-it guarantees that "the people" would be part of the judicial process.

    "Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
    -Jimmy the cheese man
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    TheBrassManTheBrassMan Member Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I beleave serving is a right that we have.
    One thing though, I have been called 4 times in the past 5 years.
    Luckly I have not had to serve on a jury any of those times.

    There are things that do bother me about the system.
    1) No elected offical can serve on a jury.
    2) No government employee (Buracrate) can sever on a jury.
    3) Medical professionals are exempt from serving.
    4) Primary caregivers are exempt from serving.
    5) Have you ever seena celbrity ever serve on a jury?

    Now 2 of these I can agree with, the Medical professional and the Primary caregiver.
    The others I do not agree with. they are citizens of this country also. I think they should serve.
    Your daughter should be able to get an exemption. But if she wants toserve and add that burden more power to her.



    Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it state: "Seperation of Church and State".


    "Those who beat their guns into plow shares; will plow for those who don't."
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    thanks brassman. I have a lot of agreement with your post.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    HAIRYHAIRY Member Posts: 23,606
    edited November -1
    tr fox: quote:Hairy: I was not and am not requesting a LIFETIME EXEMPTION FROM JURY DUTY FOR MY DAUGHTER. The above part about calling off sick or asking for special treatment from the police applies to you too. I am merely stating that my daughter has a TEMPORARY circumstances to whereas she should be given a TEMPORARY EXCEMPTION.Hate to disappoint you but haven't had to lie to take time off nor have I had the opportunity to ask for special favors from any government official--including the police.

    As a matter of fact, when my son was small, he asked if he could stay home from school because he just didn't feel like going. I agreed and wrote the note to the school that my son didn't feel like going and I agreed. The Principal called me and said that note was unacceptable; I could write one that said he was sick. Told him I expected him to teach my son--and lying was one subject he didn't have to learn at school. My note stood.

    Sorry if I seem to be a harda*s to you, but have discovered that "temporary" magically turns into "permanent"--except when it's a fun thing to do and then how about that, arrangements can be made. Aren't babysitters available? if not, why not? IMO, single parents face these issues all the time so they can't be unusual nor temporary.

    We agree to disagree. [;)][}:)]

    Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    quote:
    We agree to disagree. [;)][}:)]




    Hairy; good enough for me. And I respect you for being honest and teaching that to your children as evidenced with the interesting story you related.

    However, good, trustworthy (to us anyway) all day, long term baby care is hard to find (for us anyway). So we decided many months ago that we would NOT put the baby into the care of anyone but his mother except in an emergency. We had planned on following this plan at least until the gramdson could talk enough to be able to tell us if he was getting "bad' treatment from the babysitter. So now we will have to check around and find a daycare/babysitter solely because the court says we have to. It is not that I don't want my daughter to serve on jury duty, but now is not the time and the last time I checked there was not a shortage of people to serve on jury duty around our area. One of them could serve in place of my daughter now and she will serve in their place in the future.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    TheBrassManTheBrassMan Member Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Being a two parent home it is still hard to find decent baby care.
    We do not want our child in daycare. They have proven that it is not good for children.
    It is better for them to be with a parent or family member.
    Normally my mother or my mother-in-law watches our little one. but today I stayed home from work to watch her because neither was available.
    It is easier for me to stay home then my wife. My boss is understanding [:D]
    But your daughter should be able to get an exemption from the clerk of courts.


    Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it state: "Seperation of Church and State".

    "Those who beat their guns into plow shares; will plow for those who don't."

    "Woo unto you who call good evil and evil good."

    62038332.jpg
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    good advice brassman. thanks.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    concealedG36concealedG36 Member Posts: 3,566 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've always wanted to be called upon for jury duty; I never have been.

    tr fox, I'm sorry to hear that your daughter might experience hardship with regards to her financial affairs and childcare but I think everyone has to do their part.

    G36




    Gun Control Disarms Victims, NOT CriminalsThe 2nd Amendment; America's Original Homeland Security
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