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minimum wage and work
mlincoln
Member Posts: 5,039 ✭✭✭
Yes, I know there's the normal outrage and disgust with paying people $15 an hour to flip burgers, and minimum wage jobs shouldn't be a career, and when we were starting out we worked for 2 cents an hour with the boss docking us a cent for every 10 gulps of his air we breathed in. I know it all.
But the game isn't quite as simple as all that. I have worked with A LOT of high school kids, helping them in school and helping them prepare for work. A lot of those kids aren't super students. They're C and B students who work hard for those grades. They work hard in class, they do the homework the best they can, but they're not heading off to the University of Michigan or MIT or whatever.
40 or 50 years ago in this country, smart enough kids who work hard would be able to find a job that paid them a decent wage, that would be stable, and if they worked hard and climbed the ladder would lead to a solid lower-middle class life. It might be building cards, building buildings, working in a water treatment plant, whatever.
And those jobs, by and large, are gone. They've vanished. They've gone overseas, been outsourced, whatever. And what's left are $8 an hour jobs at 30 hours a week with no benefits and no chance of moving up the ladder. There's been a steady stream of illegal immigrants coming into the country and they've depressed wages and the expense of educating them has gobbled up a huge amount of tax dollars.
And read this story if you don't think you're next. These folks are tech-savvy, working hard, the best and the brightest. And they got hammered.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?_r=0
You can * all you want about the guy at McDonalds wanting a decent living, but those good jobs of 40 or 50 years ago, the one he wants, is now gone and McDonalds is what is left.
It is a hell of a thing to look a child in the face and to teach him and all the while to wonder if there is going to be any bit of the American dream left when he graduates in a few years.
But the game isn't quite as simple as all that. I have worked with A LOT of high school kids, helping them in school and helping them prepare for work. A lot of those kids aren't super students. They're C and B students who work hard for those grades. They work hard in class, they do the homework the best they can, but they're not heading off to the University of Michigan or MIT or whatever.
40 or 50 years ago in this country, smart enough kids who work hard would be able to find a job that paid them a decent wage, that would be stable, and if they worked hard and climbed the ladder would lead to a solid lower-middle class life. It might be building cards, building buildings, working in a water treatment plant, whatever.
And those jobs, by and large, are gone. They've vanished. They've gone overseas, been outsourced, whatever. And what's left are $8 an hour jobs at 30 hours a week with no benefits and no chance of moving up the ladder. There's been a steady stream of illegal immigrants coming into the country and they've depressed wages and the expense of educating them has gobbled up a huge amount of tax dollars.
And read this story if you don't think you're next. These folks are tech-savvy, working hard, the best and the brightest. And they got hammered.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?_r=0
You can * all you want about the guy at McDonalds wanting a decent living, but those good jobs of 40 or 50 years ago, the one he wants, is now gone and McDonalds is what is left.
It is a hell of a thing to look a child in the face and to teach him and all the while to wonder if there is going to be any bit of the American dream left when he graduates in a few years.
Comments
When I was growing up in Spotsylvania VA a man who worked was never looked down upon.
Grown men may have worked in service stations, stocking grocery stores, construction laborers or farm help. It was not shameful to work.
A man who worked was able to feed his family, not everyone was expected to have a college degree.
Some vacationed in Disney others maybe a local lake campground but even the poorest families I knew had food on the table and clothes to wear without Government assistance.
Some worked two jobs to "get ahead" but not working two jobs wasn't considered lazy.
Today's economic environment has made earning a living wage almost impossible for the lower wage positions.
And while those who throw mud at them may or may not realize it they are just a step or two away from joining the ranks of the uninsured, and under waged.
Don't ever think your job is to important to downsize, outsource or underpay.
I know it all.
Bout sums up the OP
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
Also some points that oakie brought up. First, I AM NOT busting oakie's *. The points he laid out are fairly common many places.
Ok, the new guy starts out at 12 bucks, and gets a raise after a month. That's pretty good for the new guy.
Ok now the guy that's been there 5 years can make UP TO 20 bucks an hour. Two things with this. 1) This guy that has been there five years makes less than 8 bucks an hour over the month old guy.
2) If the guy has been there 5 years, he's most likely going to make a career out of it, right? Buy a home, raise a family, all that jazz, right? I would ask all the GB members who can buy a home, and raise a family on 20 bucks an hour, to raise their hand.
Spot on what mogley said.
2) If the guy has been there 5 years, he's most likely going to make a career out of it, right? Buy a home, raise a family, all that jazz, right? I would ask all the GB members who can buy a home, and raise a family on 20 bucks an hour, to raise their hand.
Raising my hand. $20 an hour makes a decent living in the midwest. A few hours of OT a week, around $43k a year.
The DEMOCRATs preaching a transition socialism and communism fail to understand under socialism or communism, all people make relatively the same salary whether they complete a 5th grade education and mop floors or they have a PHD and engineer nuclear reactors.
Minimum wage laws are products of government.
Consider a product or service that is exactly the same:
If the cost of labor is 25 cents to manufacture or perform a service in country A, and $20 to manufacture or perform a service in country B, where will people buy the product or service?
In America alone 95% of employees are brain dead when it comes to understanding the costs GOVERNMENT imposes on a business entity merely to place a person on the payroll:
Unemployment insurance costs, paid sick and leave, workman's comp,
pay half of Medicare and Social Security, Family Medical Leave act, and now Obamacare costs and more too numerous to list.
Consider Barrack Obama and the DEMOCRATS have redefined the work week to 30 hours now rather than 40.
.....and then there are the taxes on business and compliance regulations.
Lastly, consider the plaintiff based legal system where corporations that place people on the payroll end up settling egregious lawsuits out of court rather than an face activist judge.
There is no greater destroyer of jobs than government and that is government at every level.
...i was in for a rude encounter tho when i was told my 37+ years of experience didn't warrant a higher wage than the lowest machinist hire because their product was different than most...plastics?? really?
theory and practices were the same on metals or plastics. each have their peculiarities yes, but not worthy enough to warrant a 3 year training program. later it was explained to me why pay was so low...the area wide pay average was kept low because it easy to find qualified people. there had been a downturn in the industry and more people were available than jobs, so pay them low, if they quit eventually and move on so what? there will be 10 more waiting to get in. and repeat. the work was simple enough that a fully trained experienced machinist was basically overqualified and just 1 of these top tier workers were needed to oversee 6-10 beginners.
i would not want to be a young person starting out in today's job market. too skilled?-we won't pay you enough.....Not skilled enough?---work "take it or leave it" wages. FARKED EITHER WAY YOU LOOK AT IT
Raising my hand. $20 an hour makes a decent living in the midwest. A few hours of OT a week, around $43k a year.
Wow, things must be a lot cheaper there, than here. So you can buy a home, make a car payment(most people do this, we do not), and raise two kids all on $20.00 an hour?
quote:Originally posted by Cling2myguns
Raising my hand. $20 an hour makes a decent living in the midwest. A few hours of OT a week, around $43k a year.
Wow, things must be a lot cheaper there, than here. So you can buy a home, make a car payment(most people do this, we do not), and raise two kids all on $20.00 an hour?
Many do, even on a one person income household. Now if both work and make $20 an hour each, that is definitely doable. You have to realize that you can buy a nice house in a small town for $80-100k around here. I am guessing that your standard of living is different from me as well, we do cheap cell phones, used cars, no satellite or cable, and no credit card debt. With a two income household at or above $80k, that is plenty to raise a family and have a nice home.
Many do, even on a one person income household. Now if both work and make $20 an hour each, that is definitely doable. You have to realize that you can buy a nice house in a small town for $80-100k around here. I am guessing that your standard of living is different from me as well, we do cheap cell phones, used cars, no satellite or cable, and no credit card debt. With a two income household at or above $80k, that is plenty to raise a family and have a nice home.
Ok, now I'm confused. I guess I need to pose my question differently:
Please raise your hand if you can buy a home, make a car payment, and raise two kids on $20.00 an hour household income.
quote:Originally posted by Cling2myguns
Many do, even on a one person income household. Now if both work and make $20 an hour each, that is definitely doable. You have to realize that you can buy a nice house in a small town for $80-100k around here. I am guessing that your standard of living is different from me as well, we do cheap cell phones, used cars, no satellite or cable, and no credit card debt. With a two income household at or above $80k, that is plenty to raise a family and have a nice home.
Ok, now I'm confused. I guess I need to pose my question differently:
Please raise your hand if you can buy a home, make a car payment, and raise two kids on $20.00 an hour household income.
I will rephrase my answer: Many do, even on a one person income household.
Net take home pay: around $2300/month after health ins deduction
House payment:$950
Car Payment: $220
Utilities: $120
Car Insurance: $44
Water: $40
Cell: $42
Auto fuel for 80 mile per day commute: $100
Food: $400
$384 extra for misc expenses per month.
$384 extra for misc expenses per month.
To have less than $100 left over a week for a family of 4 is approaching disaster IMO.
Also, your fuel cost for work counts on a car that averages 30mpg or darn close to that, and allows for no extra running other than to work, and back.
With a couple kids in high school, there will be extra running.
Your monthly breakdown is unworkable for a family of 4 IMO, but to each their own.
If you would like, I can even show you the math:
Net take home pay: around $2300/month after health ins deduction
House payment:$950
Car Payment: $220
Utilities: $120
Car Insurance: $44
Water: $40
Cell: $42
Auto fuel for 80 mile per day commute: $100
Food: $400
$384 extra for misc expenses per month.
made it on less
quote:Originally posted by Cling2myguns
Many do, even on a one person income household. Now if both work and make $20 an hour each, that is definitely doable. You have to realize that you can buy a nice house in a small town for $80-100k around here. I am guessing that your standard of living is different from me as well, we do cheap cell phones, used cars, no satellite or cable, and no credit card debt. With a two income household at or above $80k, that is plenty to raise a family and have a nice home.
Ok, now I'm confused. I guess I need to pose my question differently:
Please raise your hand if you can buy a home, make a car payment, and raise two kids on $20.00 an hour household income.
Some do it on less, I have. I make more than that now, but I've made it on less.
Nothing changes except to make our products unable to compete with other countries that don't believe in the Bernie Sanders wage scale.
Hike the minimum wage and businesses that use these burger flippers go automated and net results; not higher income but no income.
I know the constitution guarantees an upper middle class living without effort.
Not sure where its says that but it must be in there, right?
Same old I want a free market when I am buying but price controls when I am selling but applied to wages
"Fools learn from their own mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others"
Otto von Bismarck
I worked for $15.00 per hour as a loca driver for USF Reddaway then moved into a mechanics position making $18.50 per hour. Problem with the mechanic job is you have to supply your own tools, being a big truck mechanic means I cannot go to sears and buy a $500 tool set and go to work, I needed more than a car mechanic. Only place to buy them in Bozeman is from the Snap-On truck unless when you need a $300 socket you just cough up the cash and order it. Nope, put it on the truck account. Expense #1.
Bryann has a BA degree in criminal justice, the only jobs she could find were $8-9.00 per hour traveling to Bozeman 5 days a week. Instead she is a wharehouse manager at a mine making $15.00 per hour.
We both commute.
Our mortgage is $800 per month, you cannot rent a two bedroom home anywhere near Bozeman for that.
Groceries, expensive.
Gas, CA prices.
Vehicles at the time were paid for.
Slowly we went broke, could not afford house payments because of commute and normal bills. My paychecks went to gas, lunch, Snap-On then a car payment because we had to sell our newer vehicles and her only vehicle popped the engine. No cash to fix it so we took on a car payment just so she could get to work.
Satalite turned off, cell phones and internet was our only extra bills. Commuting, vehicle issues, food bills, heat bill, electric bill ect killed us.
So with $33.50 per hour combined income with both making long commutes we could not make it. Even with a house payment half of what others have, paid off vehicles and no other bills aside from regular bills we could not survive. Only option we were facing was to sell out and move, start over and probably face the same issues unless we just wanted to live in a rented 29 year old mobile home and drive 20 year old beat up vehicles. No sir, wrong options.
I went back to driving a truck but with $50-60K a year income the money would not have come in fast enough to get us caught up. Bought a truck, then another one. We are OK but not where we want to be.
So, would I take a job at $8 per hour? Nope, I can do better on unemployment. Sorry if that upsets some but that's the way it is. Even skilled labor at $12.00 per hour, nope. Th guy in my other truck makes twice or better than that.