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ATF: Gun Dealers Cannot Transfer Firearms to Genderatypicals Who Fail to Check ?Male? or ?Female? on 4473s
by S.H. Blannelberry on July 31, 2018
Related Tags: Buzz, News
An FFL may not transfer a firearm to a non-binary individual if they fail to complete question 6 on the Form 4473. (Photo: BBC Three)
The National Shooting Sports Foundation, the firearms industry trade association, asked the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives about how gun shops should process paperwork for genderatypical gun purchasers. Below is the Q&A:
Question: If a transferee (consumer) presents a current, valid ?non-binary? driver?s license as a form of government issued identification to establish their identity and proof of residency and then declines to select either ?male? or ?female? when answering Question 6, how is an FFL to proceed?
ATF?s Response: FFLs may accept non-binary identification documents The Gun Control Act (GCA) at 18 U.S.C. ? 922(t)(1)(C) requires licensees to verify the identity of each transferee by examining a valid identification document of the transferee containing a photograph of the transferee. An identification document is defined by 18 U.S.C. ? 1028(d) in relevant part as:
. . .a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government . . . when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.
Question: What if in a state that does not issue non-binary driver?s licenses the transferee declines to select either ?male? or ?female,? how is the FFL to proceed? Or, if the transferee presents a current, valid driver?s license that indicates one sex but selects a different sex in answering Question 6? Or, if the photograph on the government issued identification, e.g. driver?s license, appears to depict one gender sex but the transferee selects a different sex in answering Question 6? What is the correct course of action in these scenarios for the FFL?
ATF?s Response: The regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 further defines Identification Document in relevant part as:
A document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State. . .is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.
Neither statute nor regulation require the identification document contain the person?s sex. Therefore, identification documents issued with binary, non-binary, or no sex designation may be used as an identification document. For example, a military identification card is a valid identification document and does not contain a sex or gender; see ATF Ruling 2001-5. Accordingly, as long as licensees verify the identity of the transferee by examining a valid transferee identification document then they will be in compliance with the GCA at 922(t)(1)(C).
Question: Is an otherwise properly completed Form 4473 valid if the consumer declines to answer Question 6?
ATF?s Response: Completing the ATF Form 4473 when non-binary identification documents presented The Regulations at 27 CFR 478.124 state in relevant part:
(c)(1) . . . shall obtain a Form 4473 from the transferee showing the transferee?s name, sex, residence address (including county or similar political subdivision), date and place of birth; height, weight and race of the transferee. (c)(3)(i) Shall verify the identity of the transferee by examining the identification document (as defined in ?478.11) presented, and shall note on the Form 4473 the type of identification used;
The regulations pertaining to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) at 28 CFR 25.7 require the sex of the transferee in order to conduct a firearms background check. This information is captured on the ATF Form 4473, question #6, which requires the transferee to indicate his/her sex (not gender) by checking or filling in the applicable box adjacent to ?Male? or ?Female?. Transferees must select either ?Male? or ?Female?, but cannot choose both or write in ?X? regardless of what is recorded on the transferee?s identification document. If the transferee refuses to complete question #6 then the FFL may not transfer the firearm.
FFLs may assist transferees by pointing them to the instructions on the ATF Form 4473 or other ATF provided guidance, but may not advise transferees what to record when completing the form. Each transferee must freely answer each question based on the headings, notices, instructions and definitions contained on the form.
Lastly, section 31 of the Form 4473 is available for the licensee to document information they feel is relevant to a transaction. A licensee may use this section to note if the sex or gender listed on the valid transferee identification document is not consistent with the information provided in section 6 of the Form 4473 or their own perception.
Question 6 from the ATF?s Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record. Failure to complete question 6 means ?the FFL may not transfer the firearm.?
***
End of Q&A. The NSSF said that it ?requested that ATF issue formal guidance to the industry in the form of an open letter.?
by S.H. Blannelberry on July 31, 2018
Related Tags: Buzz, News
An FFL may not transfer a firearm to a non-binary individual if they fail to complete question 6 on the Form 4473. (Photo: BBC Three)
The National Shooting Sports Foundation, the firearms industry trade association, asked the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives about how gun shops should process paperwork for genderatypical gun purchasers. Below is the Q&A:
Question: If a transferee (consumer) presents a current, valid ?non-binary? driver?s license as a form of government issued identification to establish their identity and proof of residency and then declines to select either ?male? or ?female? when answering Question 6, how is an FFL to proceed?
ATF?s Response: FFLs may accept non-binary identification documents The Gun Control Act (GCA) at 18 U.S.C. ? 922(t)(1)(C) requires licensees to verify the identity of each transferee by examining a valid identification document of the transferee containing a photograph of the transferee. An identification document is defined by 18 U.S.C. ? 1028(d) in relevant part as:
. . .a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government . . . when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.
Question: What if in a state that does not issue non-binary driver?s licenses the transferee declines to select either ?male? or ?female,? how is the FFL to proceed? Or, if the transferee presents a current, valid driver?s license that indicates one sex but selects a different sex in answering Question 6? Or, if the photograph on the government issued identification, e.g. driver?s license, appears to depict one gender sex but the transferee selects a different sex in answering Question 6? What is the correct course of action in these scenarios for the FFL?
ATF?s Response: The regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 further defines Identification Document in relevant part as:
A document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State. . .is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.
Neither statute nor regulation require the identification document contain the person?s sex. Therefore, identification documents issued with binary, non-binary, or no sex designation may be used as an identification document. For example, a military identification card is a valid identification document and does not contain a sex or gender; see ATF Ruling 2001-5. Accordingly, as long as licensees verify the identity of the transferee by examining a valid transferee identification document then they will be in compliance with the GCA at 922(t)(1)(C).
Question: Is an otherwise properly completed Form 4473 valid if the consumer declines to answer Question 6?
ATF?s Response: Completing the ATF Form 4473 when non-binary identification documents presented The Regulations at 27 CFR 478.124 state in relevant part:
(c)(1) . . . shall obtain a Form 4473 from the transferee showing the transferee?s name, sex, residence address (including county or similar political subdivision), date and place of birth; height, weight and race of the transferee. (c)(3)(i) Shall verify the identity of the transferee by examining the identification document (as defined in ?478.11) presented, and shall note on the Form 4473 the type of identification used;
The regulations pertaining to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) at 28 CFR 25.7 require the sex of the transferee in order to conduct a firearms background check. This information is captured on the ATF Form 4473, question #6, which requires the transferee to indicate his/her sex (not gender) by checking or filling in the applicable box adjacent to ?Male? or ?Female?. Transferees must select either ?Male? or ?Female?, but cannot choose both or write in ?X? regardless of what is recorded on the transferee?s identification document. If the transferee refuses to complete question #6 then the FFL may not transfer the firearm.
FFLs may assist transferees by pointing them to the instructions on the ATF Form 4473 or other ATF provided guidance, but may not advise transferees what to record when completing the form. Each transferee must freely answer each question based on the headings, notices, instructions and definitions contained on the form.
Lastly, section 31 of the Form 4473 is available for the licensee to document information they feel is relevant to a transaction. A licensee may use this section to note if the sex or gender listed on the valid transferee identification document is not consistent with the information provided in section 6 of the Form 4473 or their own perception.
Question 6 from the ATF?s Form 4473, Firearms Transaction Record. Failure to complete question 6 means ?the FFL may not transfer the firearm.?
***
End of Q&A. The NSSF said that it ?requested that ATF issue formal guidance to the industry in the form of an open letter.?
Comments
That said, a meaningless question on a worthless form should not be used to deny a basic right to an individual.
Get rid of question 6.
Then get rid of the rest of them.
Brad Steele
My Drivers license and CWP have the gender on it. Both are required to be shown to FFL to get a firearm.
Yes S-F. We know you are perfectly content to bow to your masters.
Some people are not, and they should not be denied a firearm because of it.
Brad Steele
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
My Drivers license and CWP have the gender on it. Both are required to be shown to FFL to get a firearm.
Yes S-F. We know you are perfectly content to bow to your masters.
Some people are not, and they should not be denied a firearm because of it.
Another BS posting for you. That form is older than the hills
As far as the question goes it could be M____ F____ WEIRDO_______, that will fit all human categories.
You must also answer yes or no on that question, if you have any confusion over the male and female question their should be another option for 11f...not yet, cause thats where they are are headed.
We are in a very small town in a very conservative state and we had a short period of time were we had 3 trangenders or whatever you want to call 3 guys dressed as girls stopping in often. One had family in town. I'm just glad they decided to move on so I didn't have to have this argument in the store.
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
My Drivers license and CWP have the gender on it. Both are required to be shown to FFL to get a firearm.
Yes S-F. We know you are perfectly content to bow to your masters.
Some people are not, and they should not be denied a firearm because of it.
Another BS posting for you. That form is older than the hills
If I thought you had any concept of freedom and liberty, it might be worth the effort to try and get you to understand why denial of a basic right based upon this triviality is abhorrent to the very nature of what the 2nd Amendment means.
I also see someone comes by and assigns mental illness in this case.
Go ahead folks, adopt the collectivist stance that if you can't understand someone, it is fine to deny them a firearm.
Feinstein and company are in your corner.
Brad Steele
The entire FFL / 4473 system should be tossed.
That said, a meaningless question on a worthless form should not be used to deny a basic right to an individual.
Get rid of question 6.
Then get rid of the rest of them.
Hear, hear
Question 11f on the form... Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or committed to a mental institution.
You must also answer yes or no on that question, if you have any confusion over the male and female question their should be another option for 11f...not yet, cause thats where they are are headed.
We are in a very small town in a very conservative state and we had a short period of time were we had 3 trangenders or whatever you want to call 3 guys dressed as girls stopping in often. One had family in town. I'm just glad they decided to move on so I didn't have to have this argument in the store.
All those complaining on here have never filled out the form or went thru an FFL.
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
My Drivers license and CWP have the gender on it. Both are required to be shown to FFL to get a firearm.
Yes S-F. We know you are perfectly content to bow to your masters.
Some people are not, and they should not be denied a firearm because of it.
"Q-6 SEX: Yes ___ Maybe ___ Never ___ Can't ___ Shouldn't ___ Why? ___ "
Transgenders are mentally ill. I will not transfer a firearm to a mentally ill individual, period.
Armchair psychologist, or are you just afraid of something you do not understand?
I personally believe that you have every right to not sell to anyone. It is an entirely different thing when it is a government form.
Brad Steele
quote:Originally posted by Cling2myguns
Transgenders are mentally ill. I will not transfer a firearm to a mentally ill individual, period.
Armchair psychologist, or are you just afraid of something you do not understand?
I personally believe that you have every right to not sell to anyone. It is an entirely different thing when it is a government form.
I'll bite.
I respect and appreciate you Don, you and I think very much alike.
I have been accused of being a "social liberal", I have no problem with homosexuals, pot smokers(unless they are stupid * burnouts), or other non conservative values. That's just my libertarian? stance on issues such as that. Let people do as they wish if it doesn't affect me or others.
I was farmer my whole life but my family wound up with a gun store(long story), I came in off the farm in 2002 to learn the gun trade. I've grown the gun store over the last 16 years to one of the biggest in my state. I've seen alot of stuff in my years. Fact of the matter is some people shouldn't have access to guns, I know they can go steal them, buy them privately or whatever but walking into a gun shop would be the easiest option without a background check. Without the gun shop option they at least have to work for it a bit. You can get a head of lettuce without going to the grocery store right? You just have to grow it, ask a neighbor to sell you their head of lettuce but it would be easier to just get it at the store right?
I've had people get denied that had warrants for their arrest, one guy tried to get his mom to buy a gun for him that had kidnapped a women and held her in his basement for two weeks...those guys have a RIGHT to buy a gun right and should just be able to walk in and grab one anytime they want right?
Happy new year Don.
Wouldn't that be something if Liberals pushed to eliminate Gun laws due to having to declare a sex lolquote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
My Drivers license and CWP have the gender on it. Both are required to be shown to FFL to get a firearm.
Yes S-F. We know you are perfectly content to bow to your masters.
Some people are not, and they should not be denied a firearm because of it.
I reckon then the next thing will be birth certificates... Dr... What the Hell is it? Nurse..I don't know lets go ask the lab what they have created? Dr.. Look.. It doesn't have a brain to scan.. Nurse.. doesn't matter it will vote someday.
a. Add choices to placate their LGBTQ constituents while allowing more people to buy guns legally?
b. Leave the form alone to keep some people from buying guns and risk ticking off their LGBTQ constituents?
c. Or?
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by Cling2myguns
Transgenders are mentally ill. I will not transfer a firearm to a mentally ill individual, period.
Armchair psychologist, or are you just afraid of something you do not understand?
I personally believe that you have every right to not sell to anyone. It is an entirely different thing when it is a government form.
I'll bite.
I respect and appreciate you Don, you and I think very much alike.
I have been accused of being a "social liberal", I have no problem with homosexuals, pot smokers(unless they are stupid * burnouts), or other non conservative values. That's just my libertarian? stance on issues such as that. Let people do as they wish if it doesn't affect me or others.
I was farmer my whole life but my family wound up with a gun store(long story), I came in off the farm in 2002 to learn the gun trade. I've grown the gun store over the last 16 years to one of the biggest in my state. I've seen alot of stuff in my years. Fact of the matter is some people shouldn't have access to guns, I know they can go steal them, buy them privately or whatever but walking into a gun shop would be the easiest option without a background check. Without the gun shop option they at least have to work for it a bit. You can get a head of lettuce without going to the grocery store right? You just have to grow it, ask a neighbor to sell you their head of lettuce but it would be easier to just get it at the store right?
I've had people get denied that had warrants for their arrest, one guy tried to get his mom to buy a gun for him that had kidnapped a women and held her in his basement for two weeks...those guys have a RIGHT to buy a gun right and should just be able to walk in and grab one anytime they want right?
Happy new year Don.
I have always appreciated your posts as well, and was somewhat surprised at your response. My Libertarian leanings respect your right to refuse to sell to anyone, though I don't understand the reluctance based upon sexual confusion.
Be that as it may, it is better, IMO, that a face-to-face evaluation by a responsible seller be used rather than a check mark on a Federal form.
As am FFL holder, can you potentially be sued for discrimination if you choose to not sell to an individual who has passed an NICS check?
Brad Steele
As a dealer, we can't discriminate, but if we have 'reason to believe' a person is a user of illegal drugs , for instance, we aren't supposed to transfer a firearm to that person even though he probably would pass the NICS check.
I was actually sued by a customer who had a rifle on lay-a way and who I knew had just been fired from his job for failing a drug test. Since I knew why he was fired, explaining my reason for not transferring the firearm, along with a copy of the statute got an immediate dismissal.
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
My Drivers license and CWP have the gender on it. Both are required to be shown to FFL to get a firearm.
Yes S-F. We know you are perfectly content to bow to your masters.
Some people are not, and they should not be denied a firearm because of it.
Another BS posting for you. That form is older than the hills
So, because the form is old, it is proper to discriminate? Genuinely curious if you have ever fought over a principled stance you've held, no matter the subject. From what I gather, the chances are vanishingly small.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by shootuadeal
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by Cling2myguns
Transgenders are mentally ill. I will not transfer a firearm to a mentally ill individual, period.
Armchair psychologist, or are you just afraid of something you do not understand?
I personally believe that you have every right to not sell to anyone. It is an entirely different thing when it is a government form.
I'll bite.
I respect and appreciate you Don, you and I think very much alike.
I have been accused of being a "social liberal", I have no problem with homosexuals, pot smokers(unless they are stupid * burnouts), or other non conservative values. That's just my libertarian? stance on issues such as that. Let people do as they wish if it doesn't affect me or others.
I was farmer my whole life but my family wound up with a gun store(long story), I came in off the farm in 2002 to learn the gun trade. I've grown the gun store over the last 16 years to one of the biggest in my state. I've seen alot of stuff in my years. Fact of the matter is some people shouldn't have access to guns, I know they can go steal them, buy them privately or whatever but walking into a gun shop would be the easiest option without a background check. Without the gun shop option they at least have to work for it a bit. You can get a head of lettuce without going to the grocery store right? You just have to grow it, ask a neighbor to sell you their head of lettuce but it would be easier to just get it at the store right?
I've had people get denied that had warrants for their arrest, one guy tried to get his mom to buy a gun for him that had kidnapped a women and held her in his basement for two weeks...those guys have a RIGHT to buy a gun right and should just be able to walk in and grab one anytime they want right?
Happy new year Don.
I have always appreciated your posts as well, and was somewhat surprised at your response. My Libertarian leanings respect your right to refuse to sell to anyone, though I don't understand the reluctance based upon sexual confusion.
Be that as it may, it is better, IMO, that a face-to-face evaluation by a responsible seller be used rather than a check mark on a Federal form.
As am FFL holder, can you potentially be sued for discrimination if you choose to not sell to an individual who has passed an NICS check?
The ATF has taken the stance we can refuse to sell a firearm to someone for any reason we see fit. That being said, yes, we can be sued civilly just like any other business. So, long story short, no I cannot get in any legal trouble over refusing to sell a gun to someone.
As for doing a face to face judgement on who we sell to, it wouldn't work if I don't know the guy.
We have a running joke in the store about customers with criminal histories. We have noticed over the years that the more a customer talks about how he should be able to pass the background check the less likely they can pass it. Normal customers come in, decide to buy a gun and don't say a word about doing the background check. People with criminal records typically see a gun they want, ask alot of questions about what it takes to buy a gun and say stuff like "Oh, no siree bob, theres no reason at all that I can't buy a gun". Usually then comes the delay/deny.
When they get denied or put on delay they always act surprised. After they leave we look up their criminal history on our states site that lets you do that. There is always something, usually felony drug related.
Thats why I say a face to face wouldn't work, they are just going to lie to me anyway, the same way they lied on the form and the NICS check catches them.
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by shootuadeal
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by Cling2myguns
Transgenders are mentally ill. I will not transfer a firearm to a mentally ill individual, period.
Armchair psychologist, or are you just afraid of something you do not understand?
I personally believe that you have every right to not sell to anyone. It is an entirely different thing when it is a government form.
I'll bite.
I respect and appreciate you Don, you and I think very much alike.
I have been accused of being a "social liberal", I have no problem with homosexuals, pot smokers(unless they are stupid * burnouts), or other non conservative values. That's just my libertarian? stance on issues such as that. Let people do as they wish if it doesn't affect me or others.
I was farmer my whole life but my family wound up with a gun store(long story), I came in off the farm in 2002 to learn the gun trade. I've grown the gun store over the last 16 years to one of the biggest in my state. I've seen alot of stuff in my years. Fact of the matter is some people shouldn't have access to guns, I know they can go steal them, buy them privately or whatever but walking into a gun shop would be the easiest option without a background check. Without the gun shop option they at least have to work for it a bit. You can get a head of lettuce without going to the grocery store right? You just have to grow it, ask a neighbor to sell you their head of lettuce but it would be easier to just get it at the store right?
I've had people get denied that had warrants for their arrest, one guy tried to get his mom to buy a gun for him that had kidnapped a women and held her in his basement for two weeks...those guys have a RIGHT to buy a gun right and should just be able to walk in and grab one anytime they want right?
Happy new year Don.
I have always appreciated your posts as well, and was somewhat surprised at your response. My Libertarian leanings respect your right to refuse to sell to anyone, though I don't understand the reluctance based upon sexual confusion.
Be that as it may, it is better, IMO, that a face-to-face evaluation by a responsible seller be used rather than a check mark on a Federal form.
As am FFL holder, can you potentially be sued for discrimination if you choose to not sell to an individual who has passed an NICS check?
The ATF has taken the stance we can refuse to sell a firearm to someone for any reason we see fit. That being said, yes, we can be sued civilly just like any other business. So, long story short, no I cannot get in any legal trouble over refusing to sell a gun to someone.
As for doing a face to face judgement on who we sell to, it wouldn't work if I don't know the guy.
We have a running joke in the store about customers with criminal histories. We have noticed over the years that the more a customer talks about how he should be able to pass the background check the less likely they can pass it. Normal customers come in, decide to buy a gun and don't say a word about doing the background check. People with criminal records typically see a gun they want, ask alot of questions about what it takes to buy a gun and say stuff like "Oh, no siree bob, theres no reason at all that I can't buy a gun". Usually then comes the delay/deny.
When they get denied or put on delay they always act surprised. After they leave we look up their criminal history on our states site that lets you do that. There is always something, usually felony drug related.
Thats why I say a face to face wouldn't work, they are just going to lie to me anyway, the same way they lied on the form and the NICS check catches them.
You ain't saying folks aren't honest anymore are you?
To be denied for mental conditions, the applicant must have been "adjudicated a mental defective". That's not defined in federal law, & I don't know if any states bother with it, because most mental health providers have no way to report it. But, I suspect that someone who has been involuntarily committed to a metal institution by a court of law would fall into that category. And that person would likely be committed because he was considered a threat to himself or others.
Yes, trannies have a mental illness; it is Gender Dysphoria, & you can read about it in the DSM-5 (Diagnostic & Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). But, like most of those with mental illness, trannies are rarely violent. You may get yourself in legal trouble if you refuse to sell a wedding cake to a tranny, but most courts would congratulate you if you refused to sell a gun to anyone with whom you weren't comfortable.
Neal
If you are hermaphroditic do you check both?
Only if they are purchasing a derringer.
I can not imagine a non binary individual would ever be interested in owning one of those evil guns. Besides most of them can't since most are likely users of marijuana.
I think you're in for a big surprise there.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
If you are hermaphroditic do you check both?
Only if they are purchasing a derringer.
I figured you'd know.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
If you are hermaphroditic do you check both?
Only if they are purchasing a derringer.
I figured you'd know.
I know the definition. You must be the example
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
If you are hermaphroditic do you check both?
Only if they are purchasing a derringer.
I figured you'd know.
I know the definition. You must be the example
Oof. There's no salve for a burn that bad.
Consider how some of your definitions and stances sway back and forth, and aren't always especially specific, I'd be careful who you call an "example" next time.
Maybe you can borrow the definition from a buddy, huh?
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
I can not imagine a non binary individual would ever be interested in owning one of those evil guns. Besides most of them can't since most are likely users of marijuana.
I think you're in for a big surprise there.
I was being sarcastic....
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
If you are hermaphroditic do you check both?
Only if they are purchasing a derringer.
I figured you'd know.
[:D][:D]
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
If you are hermaphroditic do you check both?
Only if they are purchasing a derringer.
I figured you'd know.
Sorry you have to live out there with all the cross dressers, weido's that is just normal in the area.