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Sued for something before my birth!

CWatsonCWatson Member Posts: 964 ✭✭✭✭
edited March 2004 in General Discussion
I got served papers today,3000 thousand of them and I have 20 days to respond or loose by default.I own a small radiator and auto repair shop in Los Angeles.I got served today,for enviormental clean up of a dump in another city that operated from the 50s to 1984.I bought my shop in 1990.Even though I am know I will not have to pay the hundreds of thousands they say I know I will get burned by a lawyer in the process.

Anybody know a half way decent lawyer in the LA California area?

CWatson


1.KILL EM' ALL AND LET ALLAH SORT EM' OUT!

2.NEVER WASTE MONEY ON SPRINGFIELD ARMORY!!

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    Rebel_JamesRebel_James Member Posts: 4,746
    edited November -1
    I thought you were joking, till I saw you were in California, the land of fruits and nuts. I hope you can find a lawyer that won't charge you an arm, leg, and your first born son to get this thrown out. It should be pretty open and shut as you weren't involved.

    When I first saw the title of your post, I though it would be about 'slavery reparations.' It makes just about as much sense though.



    "If they won't give us good terms, come back and we'll fight it out."
    -- Gen. James Longstreet
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    dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    quote:Even though I am know I will not have to pay

    Don't bet on it. The way the law is applied here, you are responsible for anything that was dumped from your business, forever. If you bought the shop, you also bought the previous liability. My company has already been hammered on this, and we lost!

    How you doin'!wolf_evil_smile_md_wht.gif
    bumpersticker.gif
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    ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    If fetuses are accorded rights, they must bear responsibility as well. Nothing strange about it. We will soon be responsible for anything and everything even tangetially connected to us... such is the way that the law works: you can't have any good without a heap of bad.
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    ndbillyndbilly Member Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am not an environmental attorney but that's who you should contact. Look under "Environmental" in the yellow pages, perhaps, and call one of the environmental engineering companies. They may be able to refer you. Didn't you have a Phase 1 study done when you bought the property?
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    ruger270manruger270man Member Posts: 9,361 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Johnny Cochran.

    ruger.jpgGWB_logo_100.gifErie.gifak.jpg
    www.awbansunset.com
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    CWatsonCWatson Member Posts: 964 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    NBilly,

    I am being sued because a previous owner used a waste disposal company for about a year that dumped at a landfill 20 miles from my property.The landfill closed in the early 80s.

    CW


    1.KILL EM' ALL AND LET ALLAH SORT EM' OUT!

    2.NEVER WASTE MONEY ON SPRINGFIELD ARMORY!!
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    daddodaddo Member Posts: 3,408
    edited November -1
    Who's suing you? Sue them back for not paying attention when this offense happened. This is just not right!! Was it illegal at the time to dump there?
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    CWatsonCWatson Member Posts: 964 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Who is suing me? Good question."David Hirsch Trustee of OII Eighth Partial Consent Decree Trust"a represinative of the "NEW CURE" foundation.I found a link to the dump that is being cleaned up and posted it below.Yes it was a legal dump,landfill when it was open used by someone other than me some time before I was born and when I was in junior high school.The waste company that hauled it there was legal also.I am only about 50 pages into the 3000 right now.It looks like I am one of 115 Defendants.I will call some of the others and see if they any want to go with the same represintation.

    I am wondering if owners three times removed frome the one who used the desposal company that used the landfill can sue all the residents of California who "may" have used these companies services.


    Link to dump;CW
    [http://yosemite.epa.gov/r9/sfund/overview.nsf/ef81e03b0f6bcdb28825650f005dc4c1/c82725eb32ecc0588825660b007ee698?OpenDocument]


    1.KILL EM' ALL AND LET ALLAH SORT EM' OUT!

    2.NEVER WASTE MONEY ON SPRINGFIELD ARMORY!!
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    jaoobjaoob Member Posts: 441 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    CW,
    While I am not a lawyer it looks like you might be called (from reading a portion of the report) is a de minuous (sp) respondent.
    If the previous owner just used the dump for a year he might not have dumped too much waste. It sounds like they have the records showing how much was dumped and by whom. Also talks about a hardship clause. I would try to find out more info. You might not have to pay too much. (although anything in my opinion is too much) I wish you the best.

    Jim
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    CWatsonCWatson Member Posts: 964 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yeah Jim I read that too.I just got the summons today and plan on calling about that next AM.At the time the previous owner had the business he did only radiators.So what could have got dumped?Old radiators go to scrap company that buys them,new ones come in a box.

    It is just BS to extort money and that is all.The summons says I have 20 days to respond to the complaint or loose by default,no court date just default.I called the lawyer on the summons and he sounds like a typical bottom feeder.Wanted me to sign a document to "defer"the case.Sounds like they have a deadline comming up and want to extend it through the deferment.I know I will have to see a lawyer.Four hours lawyer time equals two years gun money.

    The previous owner was incorperated and the corperation still exists so would that not be the company responsable?

    F&^*&^&!!!

    CW




    CWatson


    1.KILL EM' ALL AND LET ALLAH SORT EM' OUT!

    2.NEVER WASTE MONEY ON SPRINGFIELD ARMORY!!
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    jpwolfjpwolf Member Posts: 9,164
    edited November -1
    America; Land of the deep pockets bleeding heart liberal lawsuit. Screw your neighbor anyway possible, anything is ok to keep you from having to earn a living.

    jpwolf.gif
    ________________________________________________________________________

    "If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace" -Thomas Paine

    If the people have become so apathetic that they will not vote out all the liberal scum (republican and democrat alike), the only solution is Constitutional Convention II the sequel. Let's get it right this time.
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    IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    CW, it's been a while since I studied environmental law, but Y, the plaintiff's have standing to sue - the sad fact is that the EPA statutes, regulations and interpretive decisions are really stacked against a small guy. E.g., you pay the fees to have something properly disposed, but the disposal company dumps it in a ravine while pocketing the (much greater) profits . . . guess who is on the hook to pay for the clean up? Even if something was dumped legally at the time, the consignors and their heirs are liable. A lot of crap got dumped before we had environmental restrictions, much of it deadly. Where it is hard to sort out who dumped what, when, and how much, the environmental laws allow broadside fishing expedition suits of this nature and essentially put the burden on the defendants, even though the actions when taken were lawful. There have been a lot of businesses, including big ones, which have been really hammered by this - even driven into bankruptcy. If, by some miracle, the previous owner who used the dump kept records of what was consigned and you have them, it will help a lot. While you may be ruled a de minimus respondent, chances are you still will have some liability. I am sorry to say it, but you definitely need to hire an environmental attorney. The bullsnot is just too deep on this for anyone to try and negotiate it on their own. Good luck - you are going to need it.

    "There is nothing lower than the human race - except the French." (Mark Twain) ". . . And DemoCraps" (me)
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    CWatsonCWatson Member Posts: 964 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well I spent most of the night going through the documents attached to the summons and appears I am being sued by a group of people/companies who have settled with the EPA.Waiting for the office of the sharkes to open.

    CWatson


    1.KILL EM' ALL AND LET ALLAH SORT EM' OUT!

    2.NEVER WASTE MONEY ON SPRINGFIELD ARMORY!!
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    FrancFFrancF Member Posts: 35,278 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think I smell a rat- Just a guess

    Was this landfill leased buy the City/county of L.A. when it was open,
    and now the property owners wish to reuse the land but must clean it up first? Think you know were I am going with this- [}:)]

    If this is the case, I bet the City/County had a not liable clause.



    eyeflash.gif
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    Queen of SwordsQueen of Swords Member Posts: 14,355
    edited November -1
    C this is actually rcrxmike_2, not his 'ol lady'. I have run into this in PA, and there are a couple of issues you need to Address with your local tree huggers.

    If this was a public land fil, then private citizens used it as well. Meaning that they are as responsible as you.

    If you, or the 'previous owner' of your shop contracted a waste management company to dipose of waste legally, it is the burden of the plaintiff to prove that the waste from you , or you heirs, was in fact 'hazardous material'.

    Did you buy an actual turn key business, or did you change the name, signifying a 'new business'? The waste is not located on your property proper, making you responsible for waste generated and shipped to another property. If in fact you bought REAL ESTATE, and STARTED a business, (even though it's the same kind of business) then you are exonerated, period. You are not continuing a business that was started by another party.

    If, as the overview states, the area in question is bisected by a freeway, where are the perk test results, impact studies , etc that the engineers surely had to have at the time of the construction of the highway? Why was the 'threat' not identified then? And if there are that many folks within a thousand feet of the site, there are bound to be some new construction type homes. Where are the Phase 1 writs for them, and why would a bank loan them money to build on such questionable land?

    I really would like a reply, at least on the 'did you buy the business, or the real estate?" thing. If it holds true, then it is open to , (and i don't hold myself accountable on the spelling) a motion to demure. what that means is 'hey your suing the wrong person'. and you should be dismissed form the action.

    Trust me, being from 'oil country' i've heard a bunch, but hey it's different in california. proof that soy anything rots the mind!

    anxiously awaiting the next post.

    "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it that the former does not submit to hereditary predjudices, but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." - Albert E.

    On my tombstone:"Keep you eyes on the road, your hands upon the wheel..."the Lizard King
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    RocklobsterRocklobster Member Posts: 7,060
    edited November -1
    Those inept bumblers who have destroyed California's economic stability are really searching for some way to get some money flowing, aren't they?
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    FrancFFrancF Member Posts: 35,278 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rocklobster-

    You bet- and sneeky to (if thats what happend in what I posted)
    Where is "Possesion is 9/10ths of the law" now[?] and If anyone does not belive that, I have a long winded 50 million $ super fund post for ya.[;)]

    I am trubled by CWatson's post in the sence he may be geting rail roaded.[:(!] Buy some not so right people.
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    dcon12dcon12 Member Posts: 31,948 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Can anyone say "slave reparations", Don.

    "Right is Right, even is everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it"
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    rcrxmike_2rcrxmike_2 Member Posts: 3,275
    edited November -1
    one other thing. what this thing looks like, (besides a tree humper witchhunt), is the reverse of a class action suit. (many plaintiffs, few defendants). Maybe , if you contact the other defendants, the cost of legal representation could be divided among you. quote:Originally posted by rcrxs old lady
    C this is actually rcrxmike_2, not his 'ol lady'. I have run into this in PA, and there are a couple of issues you need to Address with your local tree huggers.

    If this was a public land fil, then private citizens used it as well. Meaning that they are as responsible as you.

    If you, or the 'previous owner' of your shop contracted a waste management company to dipose of waste legally, it is the burden of the plaintiff to prove that the waste from you , or you heirs, was in fact 'hazardous material'.

    Did you buy an actual turn key business, or did you change the name, signifying a 'new business'? The waste is not located on your property proper, making you responsible for waste generated and shipped to another property. If in fact you bought REAL ESTATE, and STARTED a business, (even though it's the same kind of business) then you are exonerated, period. You are not continuing a business that was started by another party.

    If, as the overview states, the area in question is bisected by a freeway, where are the perk test results, impact studies , etc that the engineers surely had to have at the time of the construction of the highway? Why was the 'threat' not identified then? And if there are that many folks within a thousand feet of the site, there are bound to be some new construction type homes. Where are the Phase 1 writs for them, and why would a bank loan them money to build on such questionable land?

    I really would like a reply, at least on the 'did you buy the business, or the real estate?" thing. If it holds true, then it is open to , (and i don't hold myself accountable on the spelling) a motion to demure. what that means is 'hey your suing the wrong person'. and you should be dismissed form the action.

    Trust me, being from 'oil country' i've heard a bunch, but hey it's different in california. proof that soy anything rots the mind!

    anxiously awaiting the next post.

    "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it that the former does not submit to hereditary predjudices, but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." - Albert E.

    On my tombstone:"Keep you eyes on the road, your hands upon the wheel..."the Lizard King


    JOIN PETA! (PEOPLE EATING TASTY ANIMALS) I didn't climb to the top of the food chain to have a salad and spring water!
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    CWatsonCWatson Member Posts: 964 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well the short of it,if there is such a thing.

    This dump site was closed in 1984 and declaired a hazardous site.The EPA got the records of companies that used this landfill.Any company that had liquid waste brought in is declaired a "Potentally Resposable Party".There are two types,Major who were major manufactures who brought anything from 100,000 gal to millions and de Minimis who sent lesser than 110,000 gallons.In the late 90s the Major PRPs settled with the EPA.The EPA let the Major PRPs for a commity to do the clean up and to fund it,called "The New Cure".There is also the OII steering commity who arrange for the DeMinimis to settle,also run by the "New Cure".

    The "New Cure" is suing all the DeMinimis PRPs to collect for what they feel the EPA should collect from the them. You have to remember PRP stands for "POTENTAILLY" Responsible Party.The EPA has not sued any and is suppose to be negotiating with all the DeMinimis parties.At the end of this month the statuted of limitations run out for the "New Cure" to bring suit to the smaller parties that have not settled with the EPA.

    Why have these parties not settled? They are only potintialy resposable,no one has proved it.Why? Maybe the do not have any proof.I Talked to the EPA all day yesterday.What proof do they have my shop may have dumped there? There is a manifist from the site office that shows three or four,depending to which EPA rep I talked to,loads of liquid waste that adds up to 5040 gallons.The name on the manifest is similiar to my shop's name,one letter off.I was told by one EPA rep that there was no address or signature on the envoices with the manifest or on the manifest itself.

    I wanted a copy of said manifest and was informed I will have to go through the "Freedom of Information Act" To get it.

    What dates were on them? as told to me by the EPA rep.Spread through March 1976 to Aug 1978.So a manifest that MAY be from a shop I bought MAY have dumped something,or not.That is why we are called "POTENTIALLY Responsible Parties".What did I know about this before being served?Nothing!Almost.Earlier this year a EPA rep called and spoke to my brother.He wanted info on the person who owned the shop in the seventies and how to get ahold of him.That was it,did not mention a clean up,landfill nothing.

    RCRXMIKE,

    I bought both the land and the business.Not from the owner in the seventies.My brother in law and brother had bought it from they earlier owner.I bought it from them and that is were the chain is to be broken or not.My ex N Law lives in Minnisota.He is will be sendng me his "Term of Purchace" as far as the business goes.I was told be him he bought the equipment and name,not the business per say.

    I contacted some of the other businesses named as defendants,non are getting a lawyer,some told me they simply threw there summons away.There was another shop that does the same business as me and oddly there amount of waste was identical.The shop also does not even have the same name as the one that existed when they were to have shipped waste.

    Who are the companies behind the NEW CURE and who are suing me?Bendex,American Arlines,Atlantic Richfield,Dearborn,Black and Decker,Brigstonefirestone,ChevronTexico,ConocoPhillips,Delta airlines,ExxonMobil,FederalExpress,Ford,GeneralMotors,Hekel corp,Hughs aircraft,Interstate,LACounty MTA,LockheedMartin,Maytag,McdonnelDouglas,OccidentalPetrolium,IngersallRand,Prudential,Shell Souther Pacific Railroads,TRW,Union Oil,Uniroyal among the largest named companies.

    I have never felt so sick and disgusted in my entire life,never.

    CW


    1.KILL EM' ALL AND LET ALLAH SORT EM' OUT!

    2.NEVER WASTE MONEY ON SPRINGFIELD ARMORY!!
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    Queen of SwordsQueen of Swords Member Posts: 14,355
    edited November -1
    Mike again...(didn't log-out) whoa. does the business YOU own right now , (say for argument,it was originally, joe bob's widget works) share names, liscence numbers, tax numbers, federal ID numbers with the original 'business' After 2 owners, is it still 'bob's widget works'? or is it 'watson's widget emporium'? Are you following this? there is a big difference between buying a Turnkey, all inclusive business, and the real estate and tools to conduct business. I think this is where you ought to try to go with it. also are there any heirs from the original owner. And in the grand scheme of things, every owner after that has a stake in the responsibility.

    If you are worried about legal counsel, I'm thinking that you have liability insurance coverage. Here in PA, it covers lawsuits, so i'd hand over the summons, or at least the circumstances to them. Just a thought.

    Good luck, chief let us know how it pans out.



    "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it that the former does not submit to hereditary predjudices, but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." - Albert E.

    On my tombstone:"Keep you eyes on the road, your hands upon the wheel..."the Lizard King
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    CWatsonCWatson Member Posts: 964 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mike,

    Only thing the same is the name.All licenses,tax ID ect.. are completely different.Talked to the insurance,does not cover environmental liability issues.

    I contacted the original owner.When he owned it he was incorpirated,now dissolved .He informed me he had never used the disposal company that used the site and will look for but believes he will not have the records on who he used at the time.

    CW


    1.KILL EM' ALL AND LET ALLAH SORT EM' OUT!

    2.NEVER WASTE MONEY ON SPRINGFIELD ARMORY!!
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