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building an ar

trc313trc313 Member Posts: 3,475
edited December 2008 in General Discussion
I recently purchased a cav arms lower and a DPMS lpk to build an AR. I have never done anything like this, is it very hard? any special tools I'll need? What is a good site for instructions to build this lower? I have a 16" upper all ready to go, so I am really anxious to complete the lower. Any words of wisdom are greatly appreciated.

Comments

  • trc313trc313 Member Posts: 3,475
    edited November -1
    I have two stripped lowers that I want to start to get ready for Uppers. I have never built one from the ground up and would like any help or thought that you can give me. Who makes good parts kits? The lowers are S&W's. Any good place to for a parks list and instructions.

    Oh I all most forgot I want them to shoot a dime sized group and 1000 yards.
  • trc313trc313 Member Posts: 3,475
    edited November -1
    Has anyone heard of Rainier Arms if so how would you rate the quality? Namely the piston driven uppers, are they worth the money?

    Thanks
    Clint
  • trc313trc313 Member Posts: 3,475
    edited November -1
    so I've finally decided to build my AR-15. i need some help from the more savy members here. who knows where i can get a PRE-ban lower. I dont want to sell a kidney to afford it either. i need a lower receiver only. no internals needed. no pistol grip, no buttstock, no mag release, no trigger, no springs, no nothing. it would be nice to have a complete one, but all I REQUIRE is a pre ban serial number on it. so help me out here. Or should i just ask Black Roses?

    SGT RRG

    The greatest happiness is to see your enemy scattered before you, to see his village in ashes, and to gather to your bed his wives and daughters.-Genghis Khan 1226
  • trc313trc313 Member Posts: 3,475
    edited November -1
    I would like to build an AR15 out of parts, and was wondering what all I need to do it? I have no information what so ever about Ar's, can anybody help me? I hate to ask a stupid question such as this one haha. Any bad brands I need to watch out for? thanks.
  • trc313trc313 Member Posts: 3,475
    edited November -1
    when you buy an ar lower at what point does it become "papered" as a rifle or pistol?
  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    From the manufacture.
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    Well that is a semi trick question. If it is just a lower then is virgin till you build it into a pistol or a rifle. It will never be papered as either. If it was built as a pistol first then you could switch between a pistol and rifle any time you like. If you build it as a rifle first it can only be a rifle. This is assuming you are doing it all legally.

    Some companies make "pistol" stamped receivers that cost more money and have to be shipped as pistol.

    There is no law about what you can or can not make from a VIRGIN receiver.
    A virgin receiver is neither a rifle or a pistol as a receiver has NONE of the features making it a rifle or a pistol.

    .
  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
    Well that is a semi trick question. If it is just a lower then is virgin till you build it into a pistol or a rifle. It will never be papered as either. If it was built as a pistol first then you could switch between a pistol and rifle any time you like. If you build it as a rifle first it can only be a rifle. This is assuming you are doing it all legally.

    Some companies make "pistol" stamped receivers that cost more money and have to be shipped as pistol.

    There is no law about what you can or can not make from a VIRGIN receiver.
    A virgin receiver is neither a rifle or a pistol as a receiver has NONE of the features making it a rifle or a pistol.

    .


    I don't think so. This is the same as buying a T/C Contender or T/C Encore frame only. They come from the factory as a Rifle or Pistol frame. So if you want a pistol, buy the pistol reciever and you can turn it into either a pistol of rifle. The rifle reciever will always be a rifle reciever.
  • MVPMVP Member Posts: 25,074
    edited November -1
    STAG arms will sell you a a "Certificate Of Build" with your receiver which states it left their facility other than a rifle.

    The guy at STAG told me they do this because STAG does not make AR pistols.
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by aglore
    quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
    Well that is a semi trick question. If it is just a lower then is virgin till you build it into a pistol or a rifle. It will never be papered as either. If it was built as a pistol first then you could switch between a pistol and rifle any time you like. If you build it as a rifle first it can only be a rifle. This is assuming you are doing it all legally.

    Some companies make "pistol" stamped receivers that cost more money and have to be shipped as pistol.

    There is no law about what you can or can not make from a VIRGIN receiver.
    A virgin receiver is neither a rifle or a pistol as a receiver has NONE of the features making it a rifle or a pistol.

    .


    I don't think so. This is the same as buying a T/C Contender or T/C Encore frame only. They come from the factory as a Rifle or Pistol frame. So if you want a pistol, buy the pistol reciever and you can turn it into either a pistol of rifle. The rifle reciever will always be a rifle reciever.



    That is very incorrect, please use facts. There was a lawsuit over it about 15 years ago and Thompson WON. Here is the link for you to read, http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=504&page=505 Here is an easier to read version, http://stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html

    IF a receiver has EVER had a stock on it then it can NOT become a pistol. A VIRGIN receiver would not have a stock on it. Again a VIRGIN receiver can NOT be a pistol or rifle by ATF's OWN rules as it does not fit EITEHR definition.
  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    That lawsuit was about the carbine kit that T/C use to sell. It was all about who became a manufacturer.

    If you don't believe that T/C frames come from the factory registered as a pistol or a rifle, call them and see what they tell you.

    I have several T/C factory boxes all stamped "To be used as a rifle only" for the rifle frames.
  • cbxjeffcbxjeff Member Posts: 17,401 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A virgin receiver is just that - it's never been anything. Keep all your paperwork showing that you bought a newly manufactured bare receiver. This could be all a non-issue if B.O. gets his way!
    It's too late for me, save yourself.
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by aglore
    That lawsuit was about the carbine kit that T/C use to sell. It was all about who became a manufacturer.

    If you don't believe that T/C frames come from the factory registered as a pistol or a rifle, call them and see what they tell you.

    I have several T/C factory boxes all stamped "To be used as a rifle only" for the rifle frames.


    That is correct but they are selling Pistols OR Rifles and not VIRGIN receivers. My links had to do with pistol to rifle and back again. A VIRGIN receiver, not a Pistol or Rife as TC sells, can be made into whatever you want.

    If you go and buy a complete lower WITH stock it can NOT ever become a Pistol, this would be the same as what TC is selling. Buying a lower with all the internals WITHOUT a stock would be the same as buying the TC pistol lower. If a stock AND a long barrel are NEVER put on a receiver then it will NEVER be a rifle as it NEVER meets the ATF's own definition of a rifle.
  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    You can buy just frames for a T/C NIB without ever having a stock or grip on it. They come from the factory registered as a Rifle or Pistol frame. Bare, Virgin nada nothing on them. They are registered as a pistol or rifle at the factory. So but a pistol frame and you can have either a pistol or a rifle.
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by aglore
    You can buy just frames for a T/C NIB without ever having a stock or grip on it. They come from the factory registered as a Rifle or Pistol frame. Bare, Virgin nada nothing on them. They are registered as a pistol or rifle at the factory. So but a pistol frame and you can have either a pistol or a rifle.


    I will buy that. It does not mean it is a law. It just means that THEY choose to do such. Unless someone can prove otherwise it still stands as a fact that by FEDERAL law a VIRGIN receiver is just that. Or I guess a better way to say it is prove there is a law that you can not as it is hard to find laws saying "yes you can do this". Laws usually say "no you cant" so if there is not a "no you cant" law then it is legal.

    Good discussion [:D]
  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    Well just use MVP's example on Stag Arms. Why would Stag Arms give you a Certificate of Build if there is no Federal Law saying that a virgin reciever can be used as eitht/or? Are they covering their butts, or complying with Federal Law?


    You can put rifle barrels and rifle butt stocks on a pistol frame but you cannot put a pistol barrel and pistol grip on a rifle frame. That's why I say buy a pistol frame because than you can switch it back and forth from a pistol too a rifle.
  • MaaloxMaalox Member Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't have any knowledge on the legal ramifications of this, but I am getting ready for my first AR build and have been shopping for a stripped lower receiver this afternoon. I have a Spikes Tactical AR and most likely will use his lower to build an AR rifle. He sells both stripped pistol lower receivers and stripped rifle lower receivers. Looks like he is making the decision for you, so I assume when I pick it up from him it the serial number will be recorded as a rifle on the yellow sheet.
    Regards, MAALOX
  • tomh.tomh. Member Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm confused.
    You can add a 16" barrel and stock to a handgun and then it's fine as a rifle?
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by aglore
    Well just use MVP's example on Stag Arms. Why would Stag Arms give you a Certificate of Build if there is no Federal Law saying that a virgin reciever can be used as eitht/or? Are they covering their butts, or complying with Federal Law?


    It is for YOU to PROVE you bought a VIRGIN receiver. It says when it left STAG it did not meet the definition of a rifle since a VIRGIN receiver has neither a stock or a 16" + BBL on it.

    Say I build a pistol out of a VIRGIN DPMS receiver I got from a local gun shop. ATF one day says PROVE that you used a VIRGIN (or never been a rifle) receiver I would not be able to. Also just because a receiver left as a receiver that does not mean it did not go to a 3 party builder and then sold to the FFL as a complete rifle that you then bought.
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tomh.
    I'm confused.
    You can add a 16" barrel and stock to a handgun and then it's fine as a rifle?


    Correct. You CAN make a pistol into a rifle legally. You can NOT legally make a rifle into a pistol with out going into NFA items (which is legal too but a whole different topic if you want to start one).
  • MrOrangeMrOrange Member Posts: 3,012
    edited November -1
    I've talked on the phone with the owner of an AR manufacturer re: several stripped lowers I owned, and he told me that the reciever is recorded as a rifle or pistol by serial number at the start of manufacture before the serial number was even applied, when the keel was laid, so to speak.


    [That was an interesting conversation, as he implied that he couldn't really talk freely because he had an ATF team inspecting his company as we spoke. I guess I sound cool on the phone.]
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Maalox
    I don't have any knowledge on the legal ramifications of this, but I am getting ready for my first AR build and have been shopping for a stripped lower receiver this afternoon. I have a Spikes Tactical AR and most likely will use his lower to build an AR rifle. He sells both stripped pistol lower receivers and stripped rifle lower receivers. Looks like he is making the decision for you, so I assume when I pick it up from him it the serial number will be recorded as a rifle on the yellow sheet.


    Having something stamped and "transfered" as a pistol is a way to CYA. It is a way to PROVE you made your build from a VIRGIN receiver. Most places charge more for them plus you have to ship them as a pistol. As a private guy I cold ship a VIRGIN or rifle receiver for about $10. Once it becomes a "pistol' it has to get shipped overnight per the shippers rules for pistols.
  • MaaloxMaalox Member Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Spike's actually marks on the lower whether it is a pistol or not. They charge the same price for pistol and rifle stripped lowers.

    pistollower.jpg

    RifleLower.jpg
    Regards, MAALOX
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    Well after lots of looking I found one of the letters from the ATF:

    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter7.txt

    It is not about AR's but ALL receivers.
  • tomh.tomh. Member Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
    Correct. You CAN make a pistol into a rifle legally. You can NOT legally make a rifle into a pistol with out going into NFA items (which is legal too but a whole different topic if you want to start one).


    So to make a rifle int a pistol you have to create a Form 1 SBR?
    But I can have a buttstock for my 1861 Navy cause that's BP and nobody gives a rat's, correct?
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Maalox
    Spike's actually marks on the lower whether it is a pistol or not. They charge the same price for pistol and rifle stripped lowers.



    Correct. +1 for Spikes for not charging more. Many do.
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tomh.


    So to make a rifle int a pistol you have to create a Form 1 SBR?
    But I can have a buttstock for my 1861 Navy cause that's BP and nobody gives a rat's, correct?


    Both statements are correct.

    On a Form 1 as an SBR you would have the option of having a stock or not too. It could be without and look like a pistol if you choose.
  • trc313trc313 Member Posts: 3,475
    edited November -1
    Great discussion!!!
    I thought I would be the only one that didn't know the answer.
  • MVPMVP Member Posts: 25,074
    edited November -1
    Taken from the letter posted by NWCID from the atf and I believe that is why STAG offers to sell you "Certificate of Build" for those who wish to build a pistol from one of their receivers.

    quote:If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
    previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
    made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
    must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
    its authenticity.
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by MVP
    Taken from the letter posted by NWCID from the atf and I believe that is why STAG offers to sell you "Certificate of Build" for those who wish to build a pistol from one of their receivers.

    quote:If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
    previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
    made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
    must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
    its authenticity.




    I agree. That is one of the few ways to PROVE it.
  • agloreaglore Member Posts: 6,012
    edited November -1
    So trc313 buy a pistol reciever or get the letter from the manufacturer and have the best of both worlds.[:)]
  • dolfandolfan Member Posts: 4,159
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Maalox
    Spike's actually marks on the lower whether it is a pistol or not. They charge the same price for pistol and rifle stripped lowers.
    Agreed.
    I didn't want to have any hassles with the BATF, so I purchased a couple of "virgin" Spikes "pistol" marked lowers.
    Paid $90 each earlier this year. Those days are long gone!!

    This one sports a RockRiver 10.5" barrel, free floated aluminum handguard, RRA two stage trigger LPK and a YMH flip up front BUIS mounted on the gas block.

    Boat008.jpg
    Boat009.jpg

    Next to a RRA 16" M4 upper and Spikes unmarked "rifle" lower;

    Boat011.jpg

    Some "virgin" RRA lowers:

    Boat005.jpg
  • Fep1990Fep1990 Member Posts: 632 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My Mega lowers are marked multi- not pistol or rifle. When I filed out the 4473, I had to claim them as either a rifle or pistol. I asked the transfer dealers why ad both informed me that that the bare reciever was not classified a rifle or pistol until the 4473 was called in.
  • dolfandolfan Member Posts: 4,159
    edited November -1
    Fep1990,
    I have heard people say that you can list them as a "pistol" when the call is made but that info is not kept on file.

    The "multi" designation refers to caliber. You can make your AR into various calibers, like 9mm, Bushmaster .450, 6.8, 7.62 X 39 and others. Just need the right upper and perhaps a mag block.

    Note the close-up pic of my "pistol" lower...it also is marked "multi".
  • l3tol3to Member Posts: 256 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    tactical innovations sells there uppers "un-booked" and when you pick it up from the FFL you tell them there is it is a rifle or a pistol. The FFL then records whether it was a pistol or rifle.

    I believe nobody has brought up the Brady act in this rifle vs pistol receiver debate. If it isn't designated anywhere then that law is circumnavigated which is not legal.

    I buy the all as pistols it makes for easier Form 1's to SBR's [;)]
  • claysclays Member Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The new transfer forms have a box now to check if it is a receiver only. You do not have to specify Rifle or pistol.
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