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building an ar
trc313
Member Posts: 3,475
I recently purchased a cav arms lower and a DPMS lpk to build an AR. I have never done anything like this, is it very hard? any special tools I'll need? What is a good site for instructions to build this lower? I have a 16" upper all ready to go, so I am really anxious to complete the lower. Any words of wisdom are greatly appreciated.
Comments
Oh I all most forgot I want them to shoot a dime sized group and 1000 yards.
Thanks
Clint
SGT RRG
The greatest happiness is to see your enemy scattered before you, to see his village in ashes, and to gather to your bed his wives and daughters.-Genghis Khan 1226
Some companies make "pistol" stamped receivers that cost more money and have to be shipped as pistol.
There is no law about what you can or can not make from a VIRGIN receiver.
A virgin receiver is neither a rifle or a pistol as a receiver has NONE of the features making it a rifle or a pistol.
.
Well that is a semi trick question. If it is just a lower then is virgin till you build it into a pistol or a rifle. It will never be papered as either. If it was built as a pistol first then you could switch between a pistol and rifle any time you like. If you build it as a rifle first it can only be a rifle. This is assuming you are doing it all legally.
Some companies make "pistol" stamped receivers that cost more money and have to be shipped as pistol.
There is no law about what you can or can not make from a VIRGIN receiver.
A virgin receiver is neither a rifle or a pistol as a receiver has NONE of the features making it a rifle or a pistol.
.
I don't think so. This is the same as buying a T/C Contender or T/C Encore frame only. They come from the factory as a Rifle or Pistol frame. So if you want a pistol, buy the pistol reciever and you can turn it into either a pistol of rifle. The rifle reciever will always be a rifle reciever.
The guy at STAG told me they do this because STAG does not make AR pistols.
quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
Well that is a semi trick question. If it is just a lower then is virgin till you build it into a pistol or a rifle. It will never be papered as either. If it was built as a pistol first then you could switch between a pistol and rifle any time you like. If you build it as a rifle first it can only be a rifle. This is assuming you are doing it all legally.
Some companies make "pistol" stamped receivers that cost more money and have to be shipped as pistol.
There is no law about what you can or can not make from a VIRGIN receiver.
A virgin receiver is neither a rifle or a pistol as a receiver has NONE of the features making it a rifle or a pistol.
.
I don't think so. This is the same as buying a T/C Contender or T/C Encore frame only. They come from the factory as a Rifle or Pistol frame. So if you want a pistol, buy the pistol reciever and you can turn it into either a pistol of rifle. The rifle reciever will always be a rifle reciever.
That is very incorrect, please use facts. There was a lawsuit over it about 15 years ago and Thompson WON. Here is the link for you to read, http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=504&page=505 Here is an easier to read version, http://stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html
IF a receiver has EVER had a stock on it then it can NOT become a pistol. A VIRGIN receiver would not have a stock on it. Again a VIRGIN receiver can NOT be a pistol or rifle by ATF's OWN rules as it does not fit EITEHR definition.
If you don't believe that T/C frames come from the factory registered as a pistol or a rifle, call them and see what they tell you.
I have several T/C factory boxes all stamped "To be used as a rifle only" for the rifle frames.
That lawsuit was about the carbine kit that T/C use to sell. It was all about who became a manufacturer.
If you don't believe that T/C frames come from the factory registered as a pistol or a rifle, call them and see what they tell you.
I have several T/C factory boxes all stamped "To be used as a rifle only" for the rifle frames.
That is correct but they are selling Pistols OR Rifles and not VIRGIN receivers. My links had to do with pistol to rifle and back again. A VIRGIN receiver, not a Pistol or Rife as TC sells, can be made into whatever you want.
If you go and buy a complete lower WITH stock it can NOT ever become a Pistol, this would be the same as what TC is selling. Buying a lower with all the internals WITHOUT a stock would be the same as buying the TC pistol lower. If a stock AND a long barrel are NEVER put on a receiver then it will NEVER be a rifle as it NEVER meets the ATF's own definition of a rifle.
You can buy just frames for a T/C NIB without ever having a stock or grip on it. They come from the factory registered as a Rifle or Pistol frame. Bare, Virgin nada nothing on them. They are registered as a pistol or rifle at the factory. So but a pistol frame and you can have either a pistol or a rifle.
I will buy that. It does not mean it is a law. It just means that THEY choose to do such. Unless someone can prove otherwise it still stands as a fact that by FEDERAL law a VIRGIN receiver is just that. Or I guess a better way to say it is prove there is a law that you can not as it is hard to find laws saying "yes you can do this". Laws usually say "no you cant" so if there is not a "no you cant" law then it is legal.
Good discussion [:D]
You can put rifle barrels and rifle butt stocks on a pistol frame but you cannot put a pistol barrel and pistol grip on a rifle frame. That's why I say buy a pistol frame because than you can switch it back and forth from a pistol too a rifle.
You can add a 16" barrel and stock to a handgun and then it's fine as a rifle?
Well just use MVP's example on Stag Arms. Why would Stag Arms give you a Certificate of Build if there is no Federal Law saying that a virgin reciever can be used as eitht/or? Are they covering their butts, or complying with Federal Law?
It is for YOU to PROVE you bought a VIRGIN receiver. It says when it left STAG it did not meet the definition of a rifle since a VIRGIN receiver has neither a stock or a 16" + BBL on it.
Say I build a pistol out of a VIRGIN DPMS receiver I got from a local gun shop. ATF one day says PROVE that you used a VIRGIN (or never been a rifle) receiver I would not be able to. Also just because a receiver left as a receiver that does not mean it did not go to a 3 party builder and then sold to the FFL as a complete rifle that you then bought.
I'm confused.
You can add a 16" barrel and stock to a handgun and then it's fine as a rifle?
Correct. You CAN make a pistol into a rifle legally. You can NOT legally make a rifle into a pistol with out going into NFA items (which is legal too but a whole different topic if you want to start one).
[That was an interesting conversation, as he implied that he couldn't really talk freely because he had an ATF team inspecting his company as we spoke. I guess I sound cool on the phone.]
I don't have any knowledge on the legal ramifications of this, but I am getting ready for my first AR build and have been shopping for a stripped lower receiver this afternoon. I have a Spikes Tactical AR and most likely will use his lower to build an AR rifle. He sells both stripped pistol lower receivers and stripped rifle lower receivers. Looks like he is making the decision for you, so I assume when I pick it up from him it the serial number will be recorded as a rifle on the yellow sheet.
Having something stamped and "transfered" as a pistol is a way to CYA. It is a way to PROVE you made your build from a VIRGIN receiver. Most places charge more for them plus you have to ship them as a pistol. As a private guy I cold ship a VIRGIN or rifle receiver for about $10. Once it becomes a "pistol' it has to get shipped overnight per the shippers rules for pistols.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter7.txt
It is not about AR's but ALL receivers.
Correct. You CAN make a pistol into a rifle legally. You can NOT legally make a rifle into a pistol with out going into NFA items (which is legal too but a whole different topic if you want to start one).
So to make a rifle int a pistol you have to create a Form 1 SBR?
But I can have a buttstock for my 1861 Navy cause that's BP and nobody gives a rat's, correct?
Spike's actually marks on the lower whether it is a pistol or not. They charge the same price for pistol and rifle stripped lowers.
Correct. +1 for Spikes for not charging more. Many do.
So to make a rifle int a pistol you have to create a Form 1 SBR?
But I can have a buttstock for my 1861 Navy cause that's BP and nobody gives a rat's, correct?
Both statements are correct.
On a Form 1 as an SBR you would have the option of having a stock or not too. It could be without and look like a pistol if you choose.
I thought I would be the only one that didn't know the answer.
quote:If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.
Taken from the letter posted by NWCID from the atf and I believe that is why STAG offers to sell you "Certificate of Build" for those who wish to build a pistol from one of their receivers.
quote:If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.
I agree. That is one of the few ways to PROVE it.
Spike's actually marks on the lower whether it is a pistol or not. They charge the same price for pistol and rifle stripped lowers.
Agreed.
I didn't want to have any hassles with the BATF, so I purchased a couple of "virgin" Spikes "pistol" marked lowers.
Paid $90 each earlier this year. Those days are long gone!!
This one sports a RockRiver 10.5" barrel, free floated aluminum handguard, RRA two stage trigger LPK and a YMH flip up front BUIS mounted on the gas block.
Next to a RRA 16" M4 upper and Spikes unmarked "rifle" lower;
Some "virgin" RRA lowers:
I have heard people say that you can list them as a "pistol" when the call is made but that info is not kept on file.
The "multi" designation refers to caliber. You can make your AR into various calibers, like 9mm, Bushmaster .450, 6.8, 7.62 X 39 and others. Just need the right upper and perhaps a mag block.
Note the close-up pic of my "pistol" lower...it also is marked "multi".
I believe nobody has brought up the Brady act in this rifle vs pistol receiver debate. If it isn't designated anywhere then that law is circumnavigated which is not legal.
I buy the all as pistols it makes for easier Form 1's to SBR's [;)]