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What would you do if you were him?
Night Stalker
Member Posts: 11,967
Here is my question to the folks who think GWB "railroaded" us into Iraq. First of all, the President of the US is a busy man, so he does not have the time to go out and verify each and every report he reads. He counts on Intelligence Assets to gather the Intelligence, and the Analysts to conduct thorough intelligence analysis and "fusion" of a final Intelligence product.
By all accounts, Saddam and his very tightly interwoven inner-circle intentionally attempted to mislead the world about their WMD capabilities. They are all singing the same song that they believed if the world thought Iraq had a mature, aggressive Chem/Bio/Radiological/Nuclear (CBRN) program, we would not invade because the cost would completely outweigh the benfits.
So, if they were saying the right things to lead folks down that WMD path (namely the Intel collectors and analysts) how did the Intel community fail? You see, although all the satellites we have can tell you much about a particular event before or after it happened- such as movement of things and people etc.., what they cannot tell you about is the INTENTIONS of those folks doing that planning.
Because the Human Intelligence (HUMINT) capability we once possessed was dismissed and disbanded by the great Democrat Jimmy Carter, we no longer can tell the decision makers (ie the President) about the true intentions of some of the nut cases of the world (ie Sadam). That capability was erased from the Intel inventory, and will not come back over night. So, my point here is the Intel system did what it was supposed to: it looked at the observables on Iraq and said all the indicators and warnings point to a WMD program in full tilt. Bottomline: Mr President, and that is OUR intelligence assessment.
Next issue. Please explain this one to me, because I am a simple man and I get confused quite easily. If the same Intel analysts who prepared the supposedly great Intel briefs on Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaida pre-911 which were so "spot-on" in their assessment of the clear and present danger posed to the US by those clowns, yet no one acted upon those assessments, how can the same assessments, made by many of the same analysts looking at Iraq, be sooooooooo wrong?
Is it because we want to apply a different standard? I'll offer to you there is not a man who has been the President of the US in the past 50 years who could have launched an invasion into Afghanistan on 01 SEPTEMBER 2001, given the current political environment we have in and amongst our elected fools who sit in DC and plot their re-election strategy more fiercely than they do trying to solve the problems which plaque the average citizen. but I digress.
Now, President Bush took a beating for NOT being aggressive enough in an effort to prevent that terrorist attack on 11 SPETEMBER 2001, right, then how can we beat the man up for listening to the same analysts who were telling him Iraq was a clear and dangerous threat to the US of A, and that Sadams WMD or CBRN program needed to be ended, NOW? Remember, the satellites all told us that "things" were moving and they resembled the "things" we'd normally expect to see with an active WMD program.
So, the President acts. Based on Sadam's proven capability and demonstrated use of NERVE AGENTS on his own people. which by the way folks NERVE AGENTS are a large part of WMD and CBRN "stuff". Add the Intel analysts briefing the President that Sadam was actively working toward and pursuing those same programs, he also continually refused to let he UN Inspectors in for a look. hummm, well, lets forget about that piece, the timing must have just been bad for a house cleaning inspection team to stop by, surely Sadam had no ill-intentions for continually denying access to those places, could he?
I think a resonable person could understand how the President and his staff could definitely see the jackals in the wings waiting to attack for his inaction pre-911, and I guess I'd ask you how could he NOT invade Iraq, given all the individual pieces of the puzzle?
You see, my theory is simply this; Americans are pi$$ed about the economy and do not know what it means to truly feel the burn of a society at war like our Grandparents did during the great world wars. We care not about the long haul, only about what's in it for us right now- "How does this affect me, and me alone?" Inside themselves they're saying "I do not mind pulling a US Flag advertisement out of the center-section of the Sunday paper, heII, I'll even put it in my window, but if you want me to not consume as much fuel, or build as many houses, or accept a slumping economy while the war is on, well brotha, your asking to much from me."
That, I fear is the problem with America, and why they want to hang the President out to dry for some tough decisions which had to be made, and had to be made in a timely manner. I'll offer to you, we simply do not have the "guts" for these types of decisions as a society anymore. At the same time that great young men and women are in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting as I write this posting, most of the folks at home are more concerned about gas prices than the future of America in this very unstable world.
I apologize for being so long winded, and humbly step off of my soapbox and kick it aside, and wait with baited breath for your all to predictable attacks on the President of the United States for leading this country during a time which may someday be looked back upon as the center of gravity for our fight to remain free and un-oppressed in the world. A beacon to which many nations look for inspiration and hope as the last bastion of the land where people do the right thing, even if it means a little inconvenience for some citizens from time to time for some, and personal loss, death and innocence destroyed for other's in the citizenry.
This is a bit lengthy and I apologize, but these are my observances as an active participant in this nut-roll since 911. During the course of 23 months away from my home and my family & friends, I've had some time to think about many things and I simply cannot understand why we are so bent on vilianizing our President?
Thanks for your time.
NSDQ!
"Tell them of us and say, for their tomorrow, We gave our today." -- The Kohima Epitaph
By all accounts, Saddam and his very tightly interwoven inner-circle intentionally attempted to mislead the world about their WMD capabilities. They are all singing the same song that they believed if the world thought Iraq had a mature, aggressive Chem/Bio/Radiological/Nuclear (CBRN) program, we would not invade because the cost would completely outweigh the benfits.
So, if they were saying the right things to lead folks down that WMD path (namely the Intel collectors and analysts) how did the Intel community fail? You see, although all the satellites we have can tell you much about a particular event before or after it happened- such as movement of things and people etc.., what they cannot tell you about is the INTENTIONS of those folks doing that planning.
Because the Human Intelligence (HUMINT) capability we once possessed was dismissed and disbanded by the great Democrat Jimmy Carter, we no longer can tell the decision makers (ie the President) about the true intentions of some of the nut cases of the world (ie Sadam). That capability was erased from the Intel inventory, and will not come back over night. So, my point here is the Intel system did what it was supposed to: it looked at the observables on Iraq and said all the indicators and warnings point to a WMD program in full tilt. Bottomline: Mr President, and that is OUR intelligence assessment.
Next issue. Please explain this one to me, because I am a simple man and I get confused quite easily. If the same Intel analysts who prepared the supposedly great Intel briefs on Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaida pre-911 which were so "spot-on" in their assessment of the clear and present danger posed to the US by those clowns, yet no one acted upon those assessments, how can the same assessments, made by many of the same analysts looking at Iraq, be sooooooooo wrong?
Is it because we want to apply a different standard? I'll offer to you there is not a man who has been the President of the US in the past 50 years who could have launched an invasion into Afghanistan on 01 SEPTEMBER 2001, given the current political environment we have in and amongst our elected fools who sit in DC and plot their re-election strategy more fiercely than they do trying to solve the problems which plaque the average citizen. but I digress.
Now, President Bush took a beating for NOT being aggressive enough in an effort to prevent that terrorist attack on 11 SPETEMBER 2001, right, then how can we beat the man up for listening to the same analysts who were telling him Iraq was a clear and dangerous threat to the US of A, and that Sadams WMD or CBRN program needed to be ended, NOW? Remember, the satellites all told us that "things" were moving and they resembled the "things" we'd normally expect to see with an active WMD program.
So, the President acts. Based on Sadam's proven capability and demonstrated use of NERVE AGENTS on his own people. which by the way folks NERVE AGENTS are a large part of WMD and CBRN "stuff". Add the Intel analysts briefing the President that Sadam was actively working toward and pursuing those same programs, he also continually refused to let he UN Inspectors in for a look. hummm, well, lets forget about that piece, the timing must have just been bad for a house cleaning inspection team to stop by, surely Sadam had no ill-intentions for continually denying access to those places, could he?
I think a resonable person could understand how the President and his staff could definitely see the jackals in the wings waiting to attack for his inaction pre-911, and I guess I'd ask you how could he NOT invade Iraq, given all the individual pieces of the puzzle?
You see, my theory is simply this; Americans are pi$$ed about the economy and do not know what it means to truly feel the burn of a society at war like our Grandparents did during the great world wars. We care not about the long haul, only about what's in it for us right now- "How does this affect me, and me alone?" Inside themselves they're saying "I do not mind pulling a US Flag advertisement out of the center-section of the Sunday paper, heII, I'll even put it in my window, but if you want me to not consume as much fuel, or build as many houses, or accept a slumping economy while the war is on, well brotha, your asking to much from me."
That, I fear is the problem with America, and why they want to hang the President out to dry for some tough decisions which had to be made, and had to be made in a timely manner. I'll offer to you, we simply do not have the "guts" for these types of decisions as a society anymore. At the same time that great young men and women are in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting as I write this posting, most of the folks at home are more concerned about gas prices than the future of America in this very unstable world.
I apologize for being so long winded, and humbly step off of my soapbox and kick it aside, and wait with baited breath for your all to predictable attacks on the President of the United States for leading this country during a time which may someday be looked back upon as the center of gravity for our fight to remain free and un-oppressed in the world. A beacon to which many nations look for inspiration and hope as the last bastion of the land where people do the right thing, even if it means a little inconvenience for some citizens from time to time for some, and personal loss, death and innocence destroyed for other's in the citizenry.
This is a bit lengthy and I apologize, but these are my observances as an active participant in this nut-roll since 911. During the course of 23 months away from my home and my family & friends, I've had some time to think about many things and I simply cannot understand why we are so bent on vilianizing our President?
Thanks for your time.
NSDQ!
"Tell them of us and say, for their tomorrow, We gave our today." -- The Kohima Epitaph
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Don't go blaming the beer. Hank Hill
So much Ice, So much Beer. So little time. Shooter4
I don't have an anger problem. I have an idiot problem. Hank Hill
When I was a child, I thought as a child. But now that I am grown, I just wish I could act like a child and get away with it.
NSDQ!
"Tell them of us and say, for their tomorrow, We gave our today." -- The Kohima Epitaph
You and I both know the U-2 had photographed nuclear missiles is North Korea way back when Clinton was President.
North Korea launched it's Dae Dong missiles in tests and they splashed down just off the coast of Alaska.
There were bigger fish to fry than Sadam.
Although if I were President, and Sadam had tried to kill my father...and I was from Texas....I would of done the same thing but not in such a politically correct way.
I would of asked Israel to nuke him or else we are pulling their Billions of annual aid.
As I sit here and read todays news stories about those American's killed over there, their charred bodies pulled from the wreckage, a ten year old boy stomping on their heads...and the Iraqi citizens hanging them up for display....
leads me to think we ain't gonna win the Iraqi's hearts over and have something worse than Vietnam on our hands. The Vietnamese did not support terrorist groups to attack our mainland...at least not in the manner that we will soon see.
"As great as the young men and women are who are in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting as I write this posting, most of the folks at home are more concerned about gas prices than the future of America in this very unstable world."
If we would get our scientists off their rears and figure out a way to make a car move without foreign oil...we wouldn't have debt, foreign dependence, nor Americans dieing everyday just so America can have cheap gas to keep it's economy going.
Heck in WWII we locked up scientists in a bunker and said create the nuclear bomb and you can't leave until you do....today we lack the the American ingenuity that this country is so famous for.
Maybe some don't blame Bush for the economy but doesn't it irk you a little your military BDU's are not made in the US of A?
No man is perfect and I have a few little dislikes about our current President but he is still getting my vote. Men learn from their mistakes...plus he only will get 3 years of Secret Service protection after he leaves office from the new law enacted. He better fix things and learn from his mistakes.
I am truly tired of all the political posturing in this nation and feel that we as citizens are being blindly led down a deep dark rabbit hole under the guise of representation. Lets see... why doesn't Congress care abut Social Security and Medicare? Well, quite simply, because those rules don;t apply to them. They are under "different" rules. No need for a retirement plan if your allowed to retain your ENTIRE SALARY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AFTER ONE TERM!!! And health car, well, no need to consult with HMOs and argue for them to argue their case for why their wife needs one more X-ray for her cancer, heck get it done, "thier" health care program is all-inclusive, and require no permission for such procedures. I am nearly ill just thinking of these privledged folks who claim to be one of us, representing us, but then do not live by our rules.
The BDU's make me made as well, but honestly, two questions for the crowd: 1. who here buys only American stuff, and 2. do you want me to call you a liar to your face or call you on the phone? If we want to end all this work being "out-sourced", we need to demand some tariffs or taxes be impossed on these exact imports, but guess what folks, that means we are gonna have to pay for that with our own hard earned money. Honestly, if I can buy a TV made in Japan by a labor force which earns but $1.00 a day, why should I pay an American Unionized TV manuafacturer for a similar TV built by good old US of A Labor at a cost of $30.00 per hour? It simply does not pass the common sense test. We all want to complain about the overseas products and how it's killing the American laborer, but WE are the ones killing the American laborer, because WE buy thoe import products.
Thanks for reading my ramblings this evening RED223.
NSDQ!
"Tell them of us and say, for their tomorrow, We gave our today." -- The Kohima Epitaph
I'm ordering a .50 Beowulf upper for my AR15 from Cabela's tomorrow (payday)and hope she is made in the good ole USA.
It is just amazing at how many US products are now showing up with 'Made in China' stickers on them.
But there is an upside. I was reading an article today in National Geographic that says China has the worst contamination of any country. Rivers poisoned, workers suffering illnesses, air is so polluted you can barely see, shortage of drinking water....
Just maybe we should be thankful our country is getting time to clean herself out. I will surely be happy the day the Susquehanna River in Pennsyvlania get's clean enough that Salmon,shad, sturgeon, and other fish return to that river.
So maybe as we buy Chinese crap it is in the best interest of America's drinking water, natural resources, and public safety.
It's just that we can't be importing more than we export for too long and American's need jobs.
That's why I support something like what they did during the Great Depression. Build a big dang dam for hydroelectric power. Maybe we can't build that today, but something similiar that requires workers, truckers, materials, logistics, etc for jobs.....gives us free power.
Maybe turning the mid west prairie with all it's wind into one big wind power Station. Building Tidal Generators, free power from the ocean. American ingenuity can be our saviour yet again.
NSDQ!
"Tell them of us and say, for their tomorrow, We gave our today." -- The Kohima Epitaph
quote:I agree with you 100%. The only thing you left out was the fact that the people that are the most gleeful now that there have been no WMD's discovered are the same people that were screaming the loudest when Sodamn Insane was torturing and killing his own people.
Sorry you must be so wrong.Saddam doing whatever to his own people means nothing to me at all..not the business of me or my country.Do you have any comprehension of the Costitution at all ?
quote:We must face the fact that there is nothing a Republican president can do that will sit right with the Liberals.
I am not a Liberal..I do however have the ability to read and think..ability's that seem to be beyond the average Republican or Democrat's blind pursuit of redemption with their nose firmly planted into their leaders backside...
When the final tally is drawn up...Bush went into Iraq because of oil and the contract on his daddy.Nothing I have seen to date changes that.Sorry.
Kerry 2003: Bush Misled Americans On War; Kerry 1997: Warned Of Saddam Nuclear And
Biological Capabilities
In New Hampshire yesterday, Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said President Bush
to build an international coalition against Iraq's Saddam Hussein and then waged a war based on
questionable intelligence.
But 5 years ago, Sen. Kerry seemed to warn of Saddam's nuclear and biological capabilities as he
argued the U.S. must do what it has to do, with or without other nations!
MORE
From the official : Warned Of Saddam Nuclear And Biological Capabilities:
"It is not possible to overstate the ominous implications for the Middle East if Saddam were to
develop and successfully militarize and deploy potent biological weapons. We can all imagine the
consequences. Extremely small quantities of several known biological weapons have the capability
to exterminate the entire population of cities the size of Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. These could be
delivered by ballistic missile, but they also could be delivered by much more pedestrian means;
aerosol applicators on commercial trucks easily could suffice. If Saddam were to develop and then
deploy usable atomic weapons, the same holds true." (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record,
11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
Use Of Force Against Saddam Justified To Prevent WMD Production:
'[Saddam Hussein] cannot be permitted to go unobserved and unimpeded toward his horrific
objective of amassing a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction. This is not a matter about
which there should be any debate whatsoever in the Security Council, or, certainly, in this
Nation."(Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
Military Force Should Be Used Against Suspected WMD
"In my judgment, the Security Council should authorize a strong U.N. military response that will
materially damage, if not totally destroy, as much as possible of the suspected infrastructure for
developing and manufacturing weapons of mass destruction, as well as key military command and
control nodes. Saddam Hussein should pay a grave price, in a currency that he understands and
values, for his unacceptable behavior. This should not be a strike consisting only of a handful of
cruise missiles hitting isolated targets primarily of presumed symbolic value." (Sen. John Kerry,
Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
U.S. May Have To Go It Alone To Stop Saddam:
"Were its willingness to serve in these respects to diminish or vanish because of the ability of
Saddam to brandish these weapons, then the ability of the United Nations or remnants of the gulf
war coalition, or even the United States acting alone, to confront and halt Iraqi aggression would
be gravely damaged." (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
U.S. Must Do What It Has To Do, With Or Without Other Nations:
"[W]hile we should always seek to take significant international actions on a multilateral rather
than a unilateral basis whenever that is possible, if in the final analysis we face what we truly
believe to be a grave threat to the well-being of our Nation or the entire world and it cannot be
removed peacefully, we must have the courage to do what we believe is right and wise." (Sen.
John Kerry, Congressional Record, 11/9/97, pp. S12254 -S12255)
END
Sorry you must be so wrong.Saddam doing whatever to his own people means nothing to me at all..not the business of me or my country.Do you have any comprehension of the Costitution at all ?
It means nothing to you, and more important, means nothing when it comes to the stated purpose for us to go to war(resolution). Has anyone read the resolution?
What would I do if I was him? If I REALLY believed that Iraq was an imminent threat, I would lobby CONGRESS to DECLARE WAR on Iraq. One thing I would not do, as president, is declare war on a nation-since the constitution gives the president no such power.
"Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
-Jimmy the cheese man
Now they all cry, "I was mislead", "I didn't vote for war, I voted to look at considering war", "I support the troops, just not what they are dong"? The last one amazes me the most, but I'm sure I am not alone on that one.
In my book, when you throw your hat in the read (replace hat with your support), you continie to support and honor your word until you can no longer do so becasue of some intervening fact, which forces the chance, not because the public sentiment has waffled from one side to the other, and surely back again. Your word is your bond; offer it after much research and thought, retract it after double or triple the effort.
NSDQ!
"Tell them of us and say, for their tomorrow, We gave our today." -- The Kohima Epitaph
Make the development of technologies and infrastructure to render us independant of gasoline for power generation and transportation a "manhattan project" level priority. Including production of plastics from these sources to completely kill off petroleum products from our industrial needs lis
Then tell the Middle east to go F**k themselves and export the technology for big bucks to countries like China, Taiwan and Japan who would pay out the @ss for such capabilities.
This could employ large numbers inthe united states, while crashing the economies of the countries who rely on our money to wage their wars of terror upon us.
This sort of plan would cost hundreds of billions... and pay for itself nicely with widescale implemetation.
........but that's my nutty rant.