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Russia and China

OJMayoOJMayo Member Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭
edited June 2007 in General Discussion
are starting to worry me ALOT. Russia is being obvious in their actions about reverting back to being a mortal enemy but China is being stealth about it. with american appetite for winning wars (or lack thereof) and the liberal movenment in this country to NEVER fight a war, i see America bowing down to these two countries in the future in very bad ways.

Comments

  • ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    We seem to be of the notion that if we have no one to fear, we have bowed down to them. Has it ever occurred to you that since we do not entrust our security to others, why should others entrust their security to us?

    Russia has every right to be ticked off and China has every right to build up their military. To expect them to toe the line of our say so is foolish and naive.

    Besides, the neocons would never allow a war against China or Russia to occur - you see, those two countries can actually fight back.[}:)]
  • medic07medic07 Member Posts: 5,223 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Russia does not have the economy to suddenly build back up to the super power it was in the 80s. It would take them a decade or so to get there. You have to remember they lost all their satellite states (Poland, all the 'Stans) and would never be able to get them back without a protracted fight. Is it possible? Yes. Probable? No.

    China on the other hand is already a superpower, but their philosophy is to ruin their enemies financially...not through open warfare. There was a book that was required reading at the Air War College about 10 years ago (I will have to find the name of it again). This book was centered around Chinas domination of its adversaries and how they intended to win through financial attrition. The writer predicted the fall of the Soviet Union and missed it by less than 5 years. I believe the economic collapse of the US was predicted to be somewhere around 2015 or so.

    Fear China financially versus militarally IMHO.
  • kristovkristov Member Posts: 6,633
    edited November -1
    Since neither of those two countries have a large Muslim population we have nothing to fear. Gun Broker law clearly states that Islam is threat #1. Zombies come in at #2.
  • sig232sig232 Member Posts: 8,018
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by kristov
    Since neither of those two countries have a large Muslim population we have nothing to fear. Gun Broker law clearly states that Islam is threat #1. Zombies come in at #2.



    Ha!Ha! And....GB law rules![^]
  • zipperzapzipperzap Member Posts: 25,057
    edited November -1
    sig232:

    ... we have nothing to fear. Ha!Ha! And....GB law rules!
    3da552a6.jpg
  • 11BravoCrunchie11BravoCrunchie Member Posts: 33,424 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by zipperzap
    sig232:

    ... we have nothing to fear. Ha!Ha! And....GB law rules!
    3da552a6.jpg



    I think that would be more of a Saxon Pig event.
  • zipperzapzipperzap Member Posts: 25,057
    edited November -1
  • ObiWanObiWan Member Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Russia has been modernizing it's military with it's global buyers needing new things against America.


    Russia and China have a tank that can shoot ours long before we get in range to shoot them.

    Rifles too.

    If they take out our satellites so that we revert back to ground war......Russia and China are ahead of us with bore diameter and powder in the chamber.
  • OJMayoOJMayo Member Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    We seem to be of the notion that if we have no one to fear, we have bowed down to them. Has it ever occurred to you that since we do not entrust our security to others, why should others entrust their security to us?

    Russia has every right to be ticked off and China has every right to build up their military. To expect them to toe the line of our say so is foolish and naive.

    Besides, the neocons would never allow a war against China or Russia to occur - you see, those two countries can actually fight back.[}:)]


    cynicism will get america nowhere. the threat is building everyday and people like you have no solution. i hope you are over the age of 55 because then you wont have to actually worry about the problem. you will be dead when it emerges anyway. however, for those of us who are younger and have kids we are concerned about it.
  • ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    OJ Mayo,

    You mean, "For those of us who are younger and have no experience," right?

    The threat you speak of is nothing more than media hype. If you watch enough TV, you'll be convinced that all Americans sleep around, do drugs, kill people on an annual basis, have an evil twin, and come back from the dead with amnesia at least five times in their life.

    You say I have no solutions, yet conveniently offer none of your own. Not only does that make you a tad hypocritical, but it also shows a distinct lack of awareness on your part since I have offered my take on Sino-American relations several times in the past. That hackneyed old Bush/McCain line of "you're not offering a plan" doesn't quite wash when the other guy has offered a plan.[;)]
  • ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ObiWan
    Russia has been modernizing it's military with it's global buyers needing new things against America.


    Russia and China have a tank that can shoot ours long before we get in range to shoot them.

    Rifles too.

    If they take out our satellites so that we revert back to ground war......Russia and China are ahead of us with bore diameter and powder in the chamber.
    I'm not sure any Chinese tanks outperform ours. Russia? Maybe. But China? I find that hard to believe.

    And Russian and Chinese rifles I don't think are better than American ones. The M4 may not be the best, but whatever AK derivative the Russians are using couldn't possibly be more accurate and the Chinese QBZ-95 has a whole host of problems from what I've heard.
  • buschmasterbuschmaster Member Posts: 14,255 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    the russians have developed the Nikonov (or Abakan), which aside from the same optics platform problems as the AK, is more accurate in full auto fire than the M16/M4. of course it's also more robust. so you could say it's better.

    however, the logistical nightmare of replacing all their AK's with Nikonovs keeps it in the hands of specops only. same reason we can't change the M16/M4 to anything else like the XM8 on a dime either. the russians will use their AK-100 series for quite some time.

    so, yes and no their guns are more accurate. mostly no.
  • OJMayoOJMayo Member Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    this is about the future, not about today. china has plans for world dominance and it is obvious for everyone to see. i have many ties to china and is speak with chinese people everyday. not american-chinese but real chinese. they dont like america. they want power and domination for themself.
    they are hell bent on building a military thats bigger and more powerful than americas. they will soon have the economy to do it. also, they have the will to do it which america doesnt.
    its about china and russia getting bigger and bolder and america getting smaller and more scared.

    America's new moto "we cant"
    american liberals new moto "we shouldnt cause its not nice"
    america's cynics new moto "its bush's fault"
  • KSUmarksmanKSUmarksman Member Posts: 10,705 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Russia is genuinely concerned because they see OUR policy as imperialistic and fear an attack in the future.

    China is a different beast altogether, the way they are destroying their environment they will need "lebensraum" pretty soon. I don't discount the idea that in the future the US and Russia will have to put aside their differences like they did in WWII.
  • buschmasterbuschmaster Member Posts: 14,255 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    it would be good for the US and russia to put their differences aside and work together. we both have talent and resources to offer each other. I think americans and russians would work together well, but a) that place will remain a backwater for a long time because they just don't have the will to get off their * and shape up, and b), russians are leery (and rightfully so) of losing their culture, becoming westernized -which they don't want- and much more importantly, they know western businesses will overrun their economy in no time, accelerating the above.

    the russians and chinese are traditional enemies. they hate each other. that's a good thing for us, it's not likely (possible but not likely) that they would gang up on us.

    one thing you don't want is the chinese in control of the world. I don't think the russians would want that either, we're the lesser of two evils if they had a choice.
  • ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    I disagree that we should be looking to Russia as the great white lesser of two evils - the Russians have always been a barbaric, imperialistic, and untrustworthy nation at the best of times. Take a look at how they behaved during the Napoleonic Wars, World War I, World War II, and the Cold War and you will see an unending litany of treachery and inhumanity. They will switch sides at the drop of a hat and stab you in the back at the first opportunity.

    China, at least, has never betrayed what few allies it has - namely North Korea and Pakistan.

    As an ally, China might not be the most trustworthy, but they are far better than the Russians. Russians are anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, anti-German, anti-democracy, and pretty much anti-freedom. China is nowhere near as bad, in my opinion.

    Don't let the fair hair and pale skin fool ya - Russians are nothing like us and never will be.
  • buschmasterbuschmaster Member Posts: 14,255 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    who, me? I was saying the russians, if they're thinking about the 'world domination' thing, would probably rather have us in charge instead of the chinese. lesser of two evils. I don't think the russians would help put the chinese in a position to overcome us, cuz then they could overcome everybody.

    yep, russians are different. like said above, I think we both have something to offer. I think the average russian and the average american would get along fairly well. no, they won't end up being anything other than "russian" and they seem to have strong feelings against that. they like their identity and they don't want to lose it.
  • OJMayoOJMayo Member Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    I disagree that we should be looking to Russia as the great white lesser of two evils - the Russians have always been a barbaric, imperialistic, and untrustworthy nation at the best of times. Take a look at how they behaved during the Napoleonic Wars, World War I, World War II, and the Cold War and you will see an unending litany of treachery and inhumanity. They will switch sides at the drop of a hat and stab you in the back at the first opportunity.

    China, at least, has never betrayed what few allies it has - namely North Korea and Pakistan.

    As an ally, China might not be the most trustworthy, but they are far better than the Russians. Russians are anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, anti-German, anti-democracy, and pretty much anti-freedom. China is nowhere near as bad, in my opinion.

    Don't let the fair hair and pale skin fool ya - Russians are nothing like us and never will be.


    hmmm, i actually agree with most of that.
  • ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    buschmaster,

    Gotcha.

    But as far as getting along, the average Chinese and American would get along a hell of a lot better than the average Russian and American. The Chinese admire strength, wealth, and ingenuity - the Russian merely wants to seize it or destroy it.

    Having had friends who travled to both places (I myself have only been to China), they will tell you that Americans are treated like kings in China compared to how they are treated in Russia. Russians are xenophobic and violent and I don't trust them any farther than I can toss them.


    OJMayo,

    The key to solving a problem is seeing to it that it is no longer a problem.

    China, I believe, we can accomodate without selling ourselves into slavery. Russia, on the other hand, will never be happy.
  • OJMayoOJMayo Member Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My solution to China is to serverly limit America from importing anything made there. Some people say it would destroy our economy but I disagree. Americans economy survived over 200 years without ever importing a thing from them. There are 190 other countries in the world we can make things in. The importance of denying China the revenue and money to build there military CAN NOT be stressed more. I also believe boycotting China could have an enourmous effect on the illegal immigration issue. I would propose an "economic lottery" zone in northern mexico where American companies could do business under most American laws but with Mexican labor prices. This way it would ensure jobs for Mexicans (without making them come to America), it would provide a cheap source of labor for American companies and it would deny money to countries like China.
    My Solution
  • Fatboy livesFatboy lives Member Posts: 708 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You think china is on the up and up with us. Read art of war, and tell me if you recgonize anything.
  • ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    OJMayo,

    Even with Mexican prices, it is cheaper to produce in China and ship it over here. A story I read a while back said even Mexico was having trade problems with China because something as easy to make as shower slippers were cheaper toproduce in China than they were in Mexico for the Mexican market!

    No, we cannot win an economic war with China any more than they could win against us - it would be mutually destructive.

    The key to "winning" against China is to stop couching it in terms of us versus them - in my opinion the world is big enough for both of us to thrive and any notions of China wanting to conquer us are pure rubbish. They've already got a billion and a half people - why in the hell would they want more who aren't even like them?

    I know it's a scary notion of living in a world where we can't kill everyone, but it's reality. The days of us dictating terms are over and we should learn to act accordingly. That doesn't mean rolling over and spreading our legs open, but it does mean toning down the belligerent and paranoid rhetoric and activities.
  • sabb0007sabb0007 Member Posts: 755 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This situation is heating up with the the US planning to build a missile defense system in Europe, I think that the Russians are not so happy with us. I believe Bush and Putin and having 2 days of talks very soon about this system. I thought this 'plan' was an excellent bargaining tool, Russian and China hate this because it would limit where and how they could fire their missile in the event of war. I believe we are using this leverage to stop these guys from trading weapons and nuclear material with Iran. Hopefully it works.
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