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I know this is going to anger some folks...

Night StalkerNight Stalker Member Posts: 11,967
edited August 2004 in General Discussion
I hate to come off insensitive, (not really) but when are we going to satisfy the family members of the World Trade Centers? I mean my God, we've thrown money tons of money at them, and allowed them to testify in front of countless numbers of committees and panels. Now I see tonight that they are not happy with the 911 findings not having been implemented yet.

How many other folks have lost their lives for 1,000,000 times less? What about the 40 brave American's who gave all they had on flight 93? Are they not "citizen soldiers"? Did they not attempt to take back the plane from the hijackers in the doomed flight's final minutes, thus sparing countless deaths of other unsuspecting American's?

I dare not mention all of the soldier's who've died. They knew what they were getting into when they raised their hand and swore an oath. However, are their death benefits even partially commensurate with the payments received by the family of folks who were merely attempting to flee the WTC?

I guess I am tired of seeing the "victims left behind" on TV who have since re-married... some twice, who are still so disappointed and outright angry at the United States. Honestly, when does it end? We've all suffered losses, God knows I have, but I'm not on the evening news crying about how no one is listening to me.

I understand that they've experience a loss, but it is time to move on and attack these cowards who've brought this horrible reality to our doorstep.

I know this is terribly insensitive, but come on, suck it up and let's drive on.

NSDQ!

NS_Crest.jpgr6team.gifAmerican_IR_Flag.jpg

"The Lord knows the way I take, and when He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold" JOB 23:10

Comments

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    gun_runnergun_runner Member Posts: 8,999
    edited November -1
    I agree. Its definetely time to move foward.

    Larry
    binladen.gif
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    timberbeasttimberbeast Member Posts: 1,738 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Unfortunately, sometimes tradegy creates greed.
    Then again, sometimes greed creates tragedy. Sometimes both happen at once. And honor becomes lost in its entirety.
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    jsergovicjsergovic Member Posts: 5,526
    edited November -1
    The whole payment thing was complete bullsnot. It was a tower full of rich traders and their not so rich secretaries. The widows with the ten-million dollar houses raised cain to their elected representatives, and things started rolling.

    What about Oklahoma? What about the Cole? What about Border Patrol, or Narc Squad?

    What makes these New Yorkers any more important?
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    bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    It was utter foolishness to make payments to those people in the first place. They going to pay the families of every victim of violent crime? That is all they were.
    They insist on looking to blame someone, to find a reason for the senseless deaths of their loved ones. The terrorists are to blame and there is no reason to it.
    As far as the country goes, it was a few thousand people and a couple planes and buildings. In the scheme of things that is nothing when compared to the overall size and might of the USA.
    We should have said a few prayers for the victims and quietly went about the business of revenge.

    040103cowboy_shooting_one_gun_md_clr_prv.gifBig Daddy my heros have always been cowboys,they still are it seems
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    0311marine0311marine Member Posts: 3,233
    edited November -1
    ns and bdj well said i totlly agree

    sspic.jpgPistol-01.gif
    sealriverth.jpgdk_marinereconth.jpg
    SEMPER FI
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    bambihunterbambihunter Member Posts: 10,694 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I agree NS, and for the reply? Well put Timberbeast... [:)]
    Fanatic collector of the 10mm auto.
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    ameriskinameriskin Member Posts: 1,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    it's sad, and i agree with the families and understand why thet are upset and sad, but my family didn't get any compensation from members lost in vietnam and korea. i'm sorry, but alot of people die for really crappy reasons, and i don't think we should just pay people because they lost a family member. money doesn't replace a loved one.[V]
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    Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 39,463 ***** Forums Admin
    edited November -1
    Well said men, but once again we are preaching to the choir.

    Aberdeen.gif
    81st FA BN WWII...Thanks Dad
    U!S!A! ALL THE WAY!!
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    select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,453 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The money support America gave the families was uncalled for. How many Americans got a penny when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor ?
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    gap1916gap1916 Member Posts: 4,977
    edited November -1
    timberbeast is indeed correct. A whole lot of the people in New York city think and feel like the 2 US senetors of that state. Many of those people died on 9/11 and there relatives march on in true New York tradition.

    Greg
    Former Marine
    A N G L I C O
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    MooseyardMooseyard Member Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Has hell frozen over? I actually agree with SF. BDJ and NS you couldn't have put it better.
    Jess
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    n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    I could not agree more NS. I do not believe that we should have paid those people one cent. They have my deepest sympathies, but their loved ones were not doing anything to defend this nation...is the gov't going to pay your family, if you die in a car wreck on the way to work? Soldiers who die in combat only get $100,000 for their families...and that's only if they PAY into their life insurance policy. That's how it used to be anyway. If we are going to pay anyone, it should be the families of soldiers who die in combat...or who are seriously wounded with life altering injuries. Greed has set in for most of these people. They will never be satisfied. Just my .02[^]

    Eric

    All American Arms Company

    www.galleryofguns.com
    VIP Code: AAAC

    Veteran Owned and Operated
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    allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,280 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well said Night Stalker.
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    ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    One might ask the same thing about Vietnam. After a memorial and countless millions spent on their benefits, some folks just won't "let it rest." Take a look at how many folks are still giving Kerry a hard time for what he did back then...

    Sorry, can't agree with you on this one Nightstalker... I think your summation of current events (just as my summation of Vietnam) is simplistic to say the least.
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    I agree with the well said post by Night Stalker.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    Night StalkerNight Stalker Member Posts: 11,967
    edited November -1
    EMM: I am not sure I understand your angle.

    I am talking about the friends, relatives, associates, neighbors, cats and dogs of WTC victims who are still on their soapbox about how everyone failed them, and that no one is listening to them. These folks are, in my humble opinion, only "living victims" due to association with someone who has died as a result of a terrorist attack, and nothing more.

    Now, if I am to understand you correctly, are you saying Vietnam Vets (some, not all) are coming off as victims in the same manner? Come on, my view of the WTC is not over simplistic, I believe it is spot-on, and not tied to the emotional baggage that so many use to generate funds and platforms for any and everyone who knew a guy who, new another dude, who dated the sister of a woman killed in the WTC.

    Vietnam Vets were, and still are in many respects, treated like shiit throughout the entire course of their service to our great Nation. I do not see anyone spitting and pissing on the family members of the WTC. I do see tons of money thrown at counseling all the people who were so traumatized by having been "near" the tragedy, either through Ground Zero, or from their living room TV... but what about the returning Vietnam Vets? How about their counseling? How about all the terrible things they saw or did, and now have to live with?

    And how about an Investigative Panel to look into the true political failures of Vietnam? Just a little panel about the size of the 911 Panel will be fine if you think they are trying to come off as "victims" so similar to the 911 folks.

    The Vietnam Vets were not setting in their plush office when someone attacked them. They were setting in some God forsaken hell that so many folks no attempt to trivialize.

    I hope I misunderstood your posting EMM because I've always respected your opinion, and thought your insight, while different than my own, was well thought out and researched. But, to compare the victims of the WTC to the veterans of Vietnam is completely ridiculous.

    NSDQ!

    NS_Crest.jpgr6team.gifAmerican_IR_Flag.jpg

    "The Lord knows the way I take, and when He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold" JOB 23:10
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    chorkiechorkie Member Posts: 2,477 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by timberbeast
    Unfortunately, sometimes tradegy creates greed.
    Then again, sometimes greed creates tragedy. Sometimes both happen at once. And honor becomes lost in its entirety.

    Timberbeast summed it up quite nicely.


    Chorkie

    ???
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    LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    Everybody's looking for the big score. I don't recall the relatives of people killed in the first World Trade Center bombing being made millionaires by the government.

    Lord Lowrider the Loquacious.

    Member:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets

    She was only a fisherman's daughter,
    But when she saw my rod she reeled.
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There is a difference between what we undertake and what we undergo. It is one thing to die as a volunteer in service to one's country; it is another to die as a victim. While death in either case is no less tragic, it strikes me as ironic that victims should be afforded regard, recompense and other consideration not afforded to fallen soldiers. If anything, it should be the reverse. Unfortunately, we live in an age where the emotion engendered by an event far outweighs the event itself; a clerk who dies in an elevator as a result of a terrorist act is given the same hero status as a soldier who dies while selflessly charging a bunker in Iraq. Why? Primarliy because of the attention paid and what is made of it. I suggest that if real-time images showing the actual death of each soldier who has ever died in Iraq were played over and over on the 6 o'clock news, the same outpouring extended to victims and survivors of 9/11 would similarly obtain. Basically, the measure of tragedy is determined by how we personally stand in relation to it; and our witnessing the televised and re-televised images of planes crashing into the Twin Towers, and the heart-wrenching dialogue attending it, establishes that relationship. So a fireman who was simply doing his job gets to stand next to the President for fifteen minutes of fame, while a soldier killed in Iraq does not even get a passing mention.
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    Night StalkerNight Stalker Member Posts: 11,967
    edited November -1
    Well said DWS... unfortunate as it is, that is the world in which we live. [:(]
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    CountryGunsmithCountryGunsmith Member Posts: 617 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "a clerk who dies in an elevator as a result of a terrorist act is given the same hero status as a soldier who dies while selflessly charging a bunker in Iraq"

    That I'll buy off on, since the soldier in this example is actively pursuing the action whereas the clerk is an unfortunate victim.

    But --

    "So a fireman who was simply doing his job gets to stand next to the President for fifteen minutes of fame, while a soldier killed in Iraq does not even get a passing mention."

    Was the soldier not doing HIS job, too? What distinction do you draw here?




    Scrappy Doo sleeps with the fishes.
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    TheBrassManTheBrassMan Member Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The Insurance companies have paid out alot to these folks.
    Forgive me but should my tax dollars be given to them also.
    If I would be killed in my job, my wife would receive $20,000
    from workmans comp. Then she would get my life insurance.

    My 2 cents.

    Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it state: "Seperation of Church and State".


    "Those who beat their guns into plow shares; will plow for those who don't."
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by CountryGunsmith
    "So a fireman who was simply doing his job gets to stand next to the President for fifteen minutes of fame, while a soldier killed in Iraq does not even get a passing mention."

    Was the soldier not doing HIS job, too? What distinction do you draw here?

    The distinction is the disparity in attention paid and regard given for what each is paid to do. Why is saving someone's life in New York worthy of more notice or thanks than giving one's own life in Iraq?
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    CountryGunsmithCountryGunsmith Member Posts: 617 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I dont believe it is. I also dont believe that our troops that have died in Iraq have gone completely unsung, either.

    How's this for a comparison: compare the firemen, paramedics and police officers who ran INTO the burning towers and perished to a soldier who died in a Humvee accident in Iraq? FDNY alone lost 343 on 9/11/01. If you factor out the non-combat deaths in Iraq how does that number compare (I really have not done the math and would like to know).

    And HOW many times was Jessica Lynch proclaimed a hero?

    Anyway, if you were seeking to push a button you managed it with this 22+ year emergency services veteran.

    By the way, I agree with absolutely every other point in the original post. The payouts are ludicrous, unnecessary, and set a dangerous precedent.





    Scrappy Doo sleeps with the fishes.
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    gruntledgruntled Member Posts: 8,218 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The payments were made to save the airlines from being sued out of bussiness. What I can't understand is how the airlines could be held responsible in the first place.
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    CountryGunsmithCountryGunsmith Member Posts: 617 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The same way a firearms manufacturer can be sued out of business by somebody that was shot by a criminal. Common sense is no longer a requirement in the courtroom.

    I am surprised that some of the passenger's families from the Pennsylvania flight arent suing not only the airline but the estates of the passengers that decided to make their stand. Would be typical.



    Scrappy Doo sleeps with the fishes.
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    CountryGunsmith: I'm not talking about the actions performed; I'm talking about the difference in what is made out of one compared to the other regardless of sacrifice or outcome. A fireman saves a life and a soldier gives his; one goes on tv and stands next to the president, the other forever passes into anonymity except by those who knew him.

    I think the fireman and Jessica Lynch are precisely the same story; we need symbols, and these two were elected irrespective of the actual level of merit involved. As far as I'm concerned, Jessica Lynch and women in a combat zone in general serve only one real purpose: to provide a receptacle for the daily sperm count of those who actually do the fighting.
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    idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    gruntled--It's because of trial lawyers like John Edwards.
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    TheBrassManTheBrassMan Member Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I still beleave that women do not belong in combat!

    Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it state: "Seperation of Church and State".


    "Those who beat their guns into plow shares; will plow for those who don't."
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    CountryGunsmithCountryGunsmith Member Posts: 617 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    DWS, you must compare survivors to survivors and dead to dead. The dead from either arena cannot stand with the President and receive accolades nor can they appear on Leno for a carefully-scripted interview. The survivors by their very longevity will gather more airtime. They are more saleable.

    And, by the way, the cuter they are the more attention they get. Compare Lynch to that black female Army specialist (forgot her name - see what I mean?). How's THAT for disparity...

    I have never served in the Armed Forces so I dont have that definite an opinion on women in combat. I imagine, however, that it would be similar to women in first-line fire suppression.... and I'm not for it. Women in firehouses often serve the same purpose you describe...









    Scrappy Doo sleeps with the fishes.
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    CountryGunsmith: There may be women in a combat zone but there are no women combatants. Women are relegated to clerical and other support functions. Of course, as with men, there are instances where women in a combat zone, either through stupidity or happenstance, will find themselves in a dangerous situation. The difference is that when it happens to a woman, more is made of it simply because it is a woman. This pc, double-standard horse hockey fools no one in the military, and is for the most part an unspoken, pathetic joke; we indulge these ladies like children who have managed to potty-train themselves early, while carefully overloooking the fact that they are still unable to tie their own shoes. The often-heard phrase Our fighting men and women makes me puke; the only fighting these women do is over the attention of a newly-arrived, imagined Brad Pitt look-alike, or who forgot to charge the batteries in the electric Lance Corporal they keep in their footlocker.
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    ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    Nightstalker,

    My statement was absurd because it was meant to be. I don't believe it for a minute.

    As for your statement that Vietnam vets are treated like "shiit", let me just ask, "Who has the victim's mentality now?" After all, the Vietnam vets' memorial came out decades prior to the WW2 vets' memorial...

    Yes, the relatives of those who died in the 9/11 attacks got a chunk of change and are still complaining. But their loss should not be given such short shrift seeing as how they still lost loved ones... that can be something that's really hard to let go of and for some people, it becomes their reason for living. It's not a failing of modern American culture, it's simple human psychology.

    My gross oversimplification of the Vietnam vets' collective experience was meant to be a stark illustration of how unfeeling some people can be couched in terms people here could relate to. Offensive? Definitely. Just as it is offensive to say, "You got a pay off, you got news coverage... get over it." When does it end? It likely won't because their is no way to place a set value on a human life... I mean, do you say, "Okay, we've expended 2.5 soldiers' lives and $3.78 million per 9/11 victim... you no longer have a valid excuse for mourning or rage"?

    9/11 victims' complaints may grate on your nerves, but there's compassion to be had here. I personally don't agree with the payments handed out willy-nilly to the relatives, but I wouldn't ever have the nerve to tell them to "move on."

    By the way, I agree that those responsible should be taken out. The above should not be misconstrued as an attack on you or the war in Afghanistan and certainly NOT an attack or belittlement on those who served or lost loved ones in Vietnam.
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    Rebel_JamesRebel_James Member Posts: 4,746
    edited November -1
    Concerning the reply about the fireman standing with Pres. Bush and getting his 15 minutes of fame and no soldiers having that opportunity?

    1. President Bush visited the troops in Iraq on Thanksgiving.

    2. President Bush went for a run with a soldier that lost one of his legs in Iraq.

    Some people might say they were all only photo-ops, but all three '15 minutes' were well documented.


    MVC-031S.jpg

    "The Greatest Battle Implement Ever Devised!"
    -- Gen. George S. Patton
    referring to the M1 Garand
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Rebel_James
    Concerning the reply about the fireman standing with Pres. Bush and getting his 15 minutes of fame and no soldiers having that opportunity?

    That is not what I said. What I said, like the photo ops to which you correctly refer, is that the "15 minutes" has more to do with chance and the needs of the moment than the individual merits or sacrifices of those upon whom it is bestowed. That fireman went home to his family that night; there are nearly 1000 anonymous soldiers since who will never be able to do the same.
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    interstatepawnllcinterstatepawnllc Member Posts: 9,390
    edited November -1
    God Bless BUSHY!!

    topcat1.bmp Don't "F" with kitty!! unamerican.gif
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    rldowns3rldowns3 Member Posts: 6,096
    edited November -1
    This is what you get when you attempt to place a monetary value on grief and pain.

    aliens.jpg
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    ArmaliteA4ArmaliteA4 Member Posts: 489 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Night Stalker,

    I realize some of this has been addressed but I want to put in my .02[;)]

    I have never understood WHY our government paid any money to the survivors. It is an idividuals right and perogative to purchase life insurance.

    Now, I think, our government has opened up pandora's box with the payments to victims families. Imagine what will happen when the next attack happens,after all the smoke clears, the questions and money wil pour out. I feel for the victims like most people, but since when does our government feel responsible to pay money like this?

    I think we are in this together, like it or not the Doves of this country[}:)] And we will all have to band together to fight these scumbags and our government,because I feel they will just continue to encroach on our rights in an "effort" to reduce the terror threat. Patriot Act aside, imagine what bill will pass after the next attack,how much apathy our "allies" will feel,how mad the Doves in this country will be since they will say our last 2 wars were for naught[}:)].

    And finally, how much money the victims families will demand,as payment, from us,via the U.S.Government??[V]

    You may take the most gallant sailor,the most intrepid airman,or the most audacious soldier,put them together at a table.
    What do you get?
    The sum of their fears
    -Winston Churchhill
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