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RE: Choice for Daughter's Lifelong Gun, .22WMR???

boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
edited May 2005 in General Discussion
I am looking for positive affirmation for my logic here, but feel free to tell me the drawbacks as well. I'd like the opportunity to change my mind before I actually do this.

I have two daughters, now 13 and 15 years old. This summer, I plan on giving them their first guns. This first gun will go along with the message that this is the gun Dad has chosen to follow with them the rest of their lives. Dad's want their children to be safe, while they are alive, when they are not there, and after they are gone. Of course, they won't really be getting these in an uncontrolled sense for s few years yet. I will still control the guns. But I got my first gun when I was 12, and want them to remember that Dad gave them this gun when they were at a young age. I also want them to remember that Dad expects them to keep this gun the rest of their lives.

This is my choice, the stainless 941 Taurus .22 WMR with a 2" barrel. I know, many may think this is an inept round for personal self defense. Give me some feedback on that if you care. Personally, I have always thought pretty highly of the .22 WMR in terms of reasonable self defense. From what I have been able to determine, the energy deleveloped from a 2" barrel shooting the .22 WMR is just as good as a full length rifle shooting .22 Long Rifle rounds. The .22 Long Rifle from a handgun may be a bit weak, but I doubt many would want to be hit with a .22 Long Rifle fired from a full length rifle.

I hope there are fans of .22 WMR handguns out there.

Okay, I have already given the first reason I have chosen this gun to follow my daughters the rest of their lives. If that logic os flawed a bit, let me go into other reasons.

The guns is a revolver, and easy to remember how to operate. If my daughers do loose interest in guns, they will probably remember enough about this one to get them by.

The gun is a safe double action revolver. If my daughters ever feel they need to lock it up, it has a hammer lock. If my daughters feel they need to keep it unlocked under their pillow, it will be ready.

The gun is stainless. Even if it is forgotten for years, sitting unused on a closet shelf, no need to worry about one of my girls pulling out a rusty gun when it is needed.

If ever one of my girls feels they need to slip something into their purse, this is a good choice?

I have been able to pack close to 500 rounds of ammo into the original box (these are new guns, in original box). With another brick of ammo, I rather doubt either of my girls will ever shoot this much ammo through the gun, unless maybe one of them does decide to get into law enforcement or something. With what I give them, there should still be some of Dad's original ammo choice available when they are 80 years old.

The .22 WMR, from a short barrels pistol, makes one heck of a racket. And a flash. Anyone standing in front of this will feel some tremendous shock just from the blast and the flash. Maybe that will make them think again. If necessary, there are 7 more rounds.

But recoil is light. With good hearing protection, my girls should be able learn to fire this efficiently. With good hearing protection, my girls will not fear this gun if they ever have to use it.

And, keep in mind, the true stopping power of a gun such as this is a bit misleading. Yes, there are energy levels in terms of the bullet hitting something. But the fact is, an advasary has more to worry about than that. If this gun had to be forced into someone's side and discharged, they will be hit by more than the bullet. They will be hit by the expolsive force of the muzzle blast, which will rip a completely different cavity in their body. If one on my daughters has to grab this gun from the nightstand and put it point blank against a perp, his insides are going to explode, regardless of the actual recorded energy behind the bullet.

Okay, tell me what you think. This will probably not be the last of the guns I give my daughters. I have a few others in mind. But this will be the first, and one I want them to remember.

Not to mention, this is a nice and shiney looking gun for a lady.

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MEMBER SINCE 10/24/1999.

To err is human, to moo is bovine.

Comments

  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Excellent post. I like your reasoning and logic and the fact that you are being such a good and loving father in regards to your children's protection. Especially when you are not around. I share your feelings in regards to my daughter and grandson.

    That is one nice looking gun. It even appears to have adjustable sights. Holding 8 rounds is great. I would even kinda like to have one for myself.

    But for my daughter I got her a Tarus model 85 stainless 5 shot .38 special no visible hammer (bobbed) model in double action only.
    Reason being this is the smallest caliber I will trust to be a "stopping round". Smaller calibers can easily be a "killing" round, but they, to me, are not a stopping round. And that killing might not take place until long after the perp has had the time and energy to continue to harm my daughter.

    I wish her revolver had adjustable sights as that would make it more of a fun gun to shoot. But .38 special wadcutter reloads can be purchased fairly cheaply at the local indoor gun range and they are light target loads so there is not much in the way of muzzel blast or recoil. the "hammerless" factor is so that if she ever has to yank the revolver out of her pocket or purse, there is no hammer spur to hangup the gun from clearing the pocket or purse. The double action only is to prevent her from, when under stress, being mometerialy frozen with indecision of "do I cock the hammer or just pull the trigger" as from what I have read and seen stress can mess with your mind. So when under stress, the fewer things you have to think about, the faster and better you will react.

    For home or street protection there are a myriad number of excellent self-defense loads available in .38 +P. Probably more good self-defense loads available in this caliber than in any other.

    I would not rely on the close range "muzzle blast" factor as to be able to use this would mean that your daughter and the perp were basically going "hand-to-hand" and I doubt you ever want that to happen. Also, picture yourself facing down a drugged-up or determined 250 lb. perp. Would you have much faith in a .22 rimfire?

    JMHO, and I am sure others will have more and better thoughts to offer. I wish the best for you and your daughters.

    4lizad
  • rollnblockrollnblock Member Posts: 384 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    im going with fox on this one a 38 is about the smallest i would go for a personal protection round. my weapon of choice for the women would be a S&W lady smith. it too is stainless. the grips are a bit smaller to help fit the petit hand.
    i bought my first wife a browning hi power in 9mm she was to petite to handle the recoil and let the slide action work. always jambing empty round between slide and barrel. i bought the lady smith let my buddy take her and show her to shoot it. (we got into an argument when i was showing her how to shoot the browning) within 30 min she was busting a can at 20 paces consistantly.
  • stevedz313stevedz313 Member Posts: 714 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If I had a daughters I would buy this.
    163501_item.jpg
    Massive 500 S&W Magnumr Cartridge - 2600 ft/lb. Muzzle Energy. But that is jest me. [:D]

    But I also think that fox is right.

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  • interstatepawnllcinterstatepawnllc Member Posts: 9,390
    edited November -1
    Grant, I gotta agree with TR on his choice, in fact when I first opened my pawnshop I carried a stainless Taurus 85 snubby with +P hollowpoint loads.

    True the .22 magnum is deadly but without a heart, neck or head shot you risk a ongoing physical confrontation, not enough initial/immediate body trama with this round.

    Have them practice with .38 special loads and advise them to load up with +P Corbons for self defense. If they every have to shoot the +P's in self defense they will be so adrenalized the added recoil of the +P's will not be a factor.

    Hope this helps.

    JC


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  • rimfire72rimfire72 Member Posts: 901 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Boeboe,I bought that same model for my wife (only blued,not stainless) and she loves it. Recoil is mild and she likes to shoot it pretty often. I would rather she have this gun that she practices with regularly than a larger caliber she would hardly ever shoot. She has small hands and it fits her well. I think you made a great choice. As far as power,I would be more confident with a .22Mag than any .25 or .32 auto.

    buycoolshirts_1825_31216154.jpg
  • dolfandolfan Member Posts: 4,159
    edited November -1
    This is a great little pocket pistol. Low maintenance, better stopping power and smaller than the Taurus .22. And its also "sexy".

    Seecamp in .32acp

    check one out: item=32320875

    SORRY, can't get the link to work. Do a search with the item #.
  • Henry0ReillyHenry0Reilly Member Posts: 10,878 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:The gun is stainless. Even if it is forgotten for years, sitting unused on a closet shelf, no need to worry about one of my girls pulling out a rusty gun when it is needed.

    I have been able to pack close to 500 rounds of ammo into the original box (these are new guns, in original box). With another brick of ammo, I rather doubt either of my girls will ever shoot this much ammo through the gun, unless maybe one of them does decide to get into law enforcement or something. With what I give them, there should still be some of Dad's original ammo choice available when they are 80 years old.



    Trying to teach good handgun marksmanship with a 2" barrel is difficult and would require at least 5x as much ammo as you have alloted to last them until 80 years old.

    Stainless steel is not magical steel. Women have alkalai (sp?) in their perspiration. Be sure to teach them to wipe them down with an oily rag.

    I always recommend a single action .22 to learn handgun marksmanship with.

    my two cents

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    Semper Fi

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    What if there were no hypothetical questions?

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  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    boeboe, if they have not already joined you on the range, I would start them with some sort of .22 and then move upward (unless they are very different than the vast majority of women I have taught to shoot, that is likely to happen the first afternoon!). If you are going to give her a handgun she can use throughout her lifetime (which I applaud as a father understanding your feelings and as a proponent of the 2nd Amd.), then I would not settle for anything less than a .38 and frankly I'd go with a .357. The latter can be used with .38 for practice (as I'm sure you realize), some practice with the full power loads when she is ready for that, and carried with the "real thing." If she ever *needs* to use the piece in self-defense, the last thing she will notice is recoil if she has done a reasonable amount of practice. The fit of the chosen handgun to her hand is critical - again I'm sure you know this. I'd let her help you pick *HER* gun. When she shows it to her friends / your grandchildren she will say "my Dad and I picked this for my first handgun." Man, if that doesn't play to your sentiment, nothing will. Whatever you do, you definitely are on the right path - you are a good & loving father . . . I salute you!

    "There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)
  • drobsdrobs Member Posts: 22,527 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    1st off!!! Friends don't let friends buy Taurus!!!!

    How about getting your daughters a nice made in America gun like a Smith & Wesson?

    22WMR, IMHO, is a soon to be dead cartridge. If your are going to go 22 get them 22lr's. 22WMR is too expensive to enjoy and shoot enough of. Why stick your daughters with an odd ball cartridge? Also why stick em with a gun that will depreciate? Get them a gun that they can treasure and pass on that has some heritage and if need be future resale value.

    I agree, revolver, is the way to go because it's simple but go with 22lr of 38spl.



    Regards,
    gadsden.jpg
  • CORRENCORREN Member Posts: 466 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Now you did! I got the urge to buy my daughter a gun to. I like your choice and reasons but I think ill go with a 22 lr cheap and easy for her to shoot. she shoots my mark 2 now but i want her to have her own. what is the price of the taurus? Good thing her b-day is soon she will be 13.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    In regards to buying a S&W instead of a Taurus, consider this. Frequently Taurus will provide a free years membership in the NRA simply for buying one of their guns. This is a nice gesture that helps gun rights in general.I haven't ever seen S&W do that.

    In addition I consider Tauras a "friend" of gun buyer because the company has for years made high quality guns, offered a very wide variety and kept the price down so as to be more affordable.

    And while S&W is no longer run by the same management that a few years ago caved in to the Clinton administration and cut a "special" deal which didn't help civilian gun rights, now S&W is owned by a British Co. so it is not truly an American company.

    Plus I believe, not sure, but I think some Taurus guns are made in America.

    JMHO

    4lizad
  • dbaraledbarale Member Posts: 328 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I too would think that a .38 would be a better option. I got my wife to shooting her 60 LadySmith by loading it up with .38 wadcutters. the recoil is almost nill and it's more enjoyable for her. I just wish I had gotten her a 3" barrel instead of the 2"...

    Daniel.
  • wizard78wizard78 Member Posts: 3,144
    edited November -1
    Good reasoning and choice. Remember though, that their first gun won't be their last. I started my daughter with a 4" 22 and after many shooting sessions at age 12 to 14, she started shooting my 38. She was actually very good with the 38. When she went to college I let her have the (I feel redundant) Taurus mod 85, for her apartment. I would take her out shooting but not as much as I'd prefer. As she got older she wanted to carry in her car, because she got off work late at night. I asked her to take the CWP course and then I'd give her a new carry gun. I believed at her age, she would be more likely to listen to a pro, about the hazards of using a carry gun, than me. After she completed her course and I sent in for her permit, I gave her a Berreta stainless Tomcat. Took her to the range for practice and she got comfortable with it. the tip up barrel made loading and unloading easy. She now has 2 to choose from and as her interests change, maybe a target gun in the horizon. Which ever way you go, your daughters will benefit.
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    simple answers here. bare with me....
    i think youre setting yourself up for a mistake. telling your kids this is what dad wants you to have for the rest of their lives forces them to keep something that might not be what they need or can shoot well. thus, the student is forced to deal with something they dont like out of respect for dad, not common sense.
    let the shooter decide what they will trust their own lives to based on training, education, research, and comfort.
    guns are like shoes, you buy the right shoe for the right occasion.
    buy the 22wmr to teach shooting. go with the 4" bbl. 2" is strictly for conceal and packing. small guns for purses shouldnt have hammers, big front blades, and adj sights.
    buy a 32 or 38 to protect them with.
    the bullet is already thru the target by the time the boom is heard. teach them proper shooting and caliber wont matter.
    looks and bang factor should take back seat to fit and trigger and sight operation.
    there is no such thing as a do all gun. do your girls all wear the same color clothes?
    guns are fitted to people, not a bunch of people. try wearing your friends shoes someday to get my point.
    control and comfort increases confidence.
    practice increases confidence.
    lots of practice is expensive.
    so what.
    enjoy and i hope your girls will appreciate your generosity.[;)]


    former air operations officer SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team 2. former navy skeet team, former navy rifle/pistol team member. co-owner skeetmaster tubes inc.. owner/operator professional shooting instruction. NRA certified instructor.
    Retired Naval Aviation
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    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Update to earlier post: another member was kind enough to inform me that S&W was purchased in 2001 by an American Co. (Saf-T-Hammer I believe) so that S&W is again an American company.

    That is good news indeed.

    4lizad
  • eastwood44mageastwood44mag Member Posts: 2,655 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a place in my heart reserved for the .22 WMR with its vicious effects on soft tissue. However, I would want something a little bit zippier in close quarters confrontation. I would even recommend a .44 special--recoil isn't bad, and it makes a big hole, especially if you can get some gold dots.

    Regardless of your decision, you are one hell of a father, to be thinking about this already[^]. Good luck.

    O Lord,
    grant me the Serenity
    to accept the things
    I cannot change
    the courage to change the things I can,
    and the supreme firepower to make the difference.
  • boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    Thanks to all for the advice and opinions. Firearms in our family tend to become family heirlooms and among the other firearms already being passed down to them will be a Colt Challenger .22, an Iver Johnson Safety Hammerless New Model and a Remington 12C pump .22 with octagonal barrel. I also have a good family friend that wants to pass along her chrome w/pink grip Phoenix 25 auto. But none of these were my first choice for self defense In fact, even though a good family friend has asked to pass along the Phoenix .25 auto, I have been thinking about refusing just on general principles. I don't want either of them to trust such a gun.

    I wanted to make the Taurus 22 WMR their first gun, and one which would indeed follow them the rest of their lives. I had hoped that maybe the Taurus would be enough, I was trying to financially economize my decisions, but you have made me see my original plan is probably what I need to stick with. My original plan was to make sure they ended up with a few different firearms, that I would acquire over the next few years. I have intended to include a Makarov for each of them and an HS2000 (same as Springfield Armory XD) for each of them. I have one of each of these, just want to get one more of each so each would receive the same things. These, in turn, could someday be passed along to my grandchildren, at the right time.

    It's just that passing along five or six guns to each of them started to seem to be an overstatement on Dad's part.

    My daughters are not the typical young girls around firearms, I had them bump firing my M11/9 and AK47 a couple of years ago. You can imagine a couple of girls that age out in a Kansas wheat field bump firing those sorts of firearms, and they liked it. They met Mark Christian during one of our trips to CA, they are well aware that Dad and his friends are gun nuts. We have gone to a couple of gunshows together. I am hoping they will retain their own personal positive experiences with guns and gun folk.

    Thanks again.


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    MEMBER SINCE 10/24/1999.

    To err is human, to moo is bovine.
  • FrogbertFrogbert Member Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Smith and Wesson model 637, .38SP+p, 15 ounces, smooth DA
    and extra smooth SA for the range. Hits like a sledgehammer, has the speed to spread the hollow point and won't bounce around all over the place like .22wmr.

    Costs about $350, is lockable, is great for small hands, and would last a lifetime and, in my opinion, will be something they will develop a preference for. Very good-looking, very concealable, and comes with a good guarantee and a membership in the S&W Club 1852, which entitles them to free safety CD and a multitude of benefits in annual mailers free of charge.

    I taught my wife, who has small hands and a little arthritis, on this 637. Nailed a Coca Cola box to a tree and she hit with all five rounds from 10 paces on her first try. I bought her a Berretta .380, she didn't like it, so I let her shoot a Model 19 Smith, a P-64, and an S&W 9mm auto and she said, "Give me back my little Smith!" She loves it, it's hers, end of story.[^]

    Frog.

    RiBBButt...You can't rollerskate in a buffalo herd, but you can be happy if you've a mind to.
  • FrogbertFrogbert Member Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=32512689

    http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=32415329

    One of the above is a hammerless .38 Spl. and the other is the Model 637 Airweight my wife has, which does have a trigger, but can shoot the .38Spl+p as well as the .38 Spl. The .38Spl lead round nose or FMJ can be had at about $8.00 a 50 round box for the range in UMC, Blazer, PMC, Federal American Eagle, Winchester, etc., and the .38Spl+p personal defense rounds are available as Remington Golden Sabre, Speer Gold Dot and several other premium grade presentations, costing more, but delivering devastating performance. According to my understanding, it is the NO. 1 choice for the back-up gun among professionals nation-wide.

    I like the hammered model because of the accuracy you can produce when squeezing off single action with the 637 Airweight. I shot several 4-inch groups with my wife's at thirty+ feet. Very impressive for a 1 7/8" snubby. I was shooting Remington UMC .38Spl+p 125 gr. Semi-Jacketed Hollow Points (L38S2B), available at Walmart in a 100-round box for a little over $20.00.

    Frog.

    RiBBButt...You can't rollerskate in a buffalo herd, but you can be happy if you've a mind to.
  • boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    Okay, had to re-visit this one more time, sorry. I just did some math.

    Figuring 8 shot 22 WMR from a revolver, each round, delivers 175 ft/lbs of energy, total in 8 shot Taurus is 1400 ft/lbs.

    Figuring 5 shots in 38 special revolver, at 235 ft/lbs each round, total is 1175 ft/lbs in the five shot revolver.

    So in same size revolver, 8 shots in 22 WMR or 5 shots in 38 special, the 22 WMR revolver actually, in total, has more power. At the same size handgun.

    Looking at my daughters, would I prefer that they have five shots from a 38, or 8 shots from the 22 WMR? Maybe there is a bit of "spray and pray" from the 22 WMR Taurus, maybe in 8 shots, they will hit the perp twice compared to once from the 5 shot 38. These are my daughters, after all. I do hope that they do grow up and continuw an interest in guns, but I can't guarantee that.

    Oh well. Given overall total power available from the gun, I think the 8 shot Taurus is still reasonable.

    Thanks again.

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    MEMBER SINCE 10/24/1999.

    To err is human, to moo is bovine.
  • FrogbertFrogbert Member Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hope they never have to use any gun against anybody, ever.

    Either weapon will do the trick, for sure. It's familiarity with the firearm and proficiency at firing it that makes the difference in a split second confrontation.
    I'm sure you will teach them and insist they practice a lot.

    See you, boeboe,

    Frog.

    RiBBButt...You can't rollerskate in a buffalo herd, but you can be happy if you've a mind to. -Roger Miller
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