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McCain against torture,but admits it worked on him
bigtire
Member Posts: 24,800
Tuesday, Nov. 29, 2005 9:55 a.m. EST
John McCain: Torture Worked on Me
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/29/100012.shtml
Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.
Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!
In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.
"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.
"I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."
The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."
Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."
The episode wasn't the only instance when McCain broke under physical pressure.
Just after his release in May 1973, he detailed his experience as a P.O.W. in a lengthy account in U.S. News & World Report.
He described the day Hanoi Hilton guards beat him "from pillar to post, kicking and laughing and scratching. After a few hours of that, ropes were put on me and I sat that night bound with ropes."
"For the next four days, I was beaten every two to three hours by different guards . . . Finally, I reached the lowest point of my 5 1/2 years in North Vietnam. I was at the point of suicide, because I saw that I was reaching the end of my rope."
McCain was taken to an interrogation room and ordered to sign a document confessing to war crimes. "I signed it," he recalled. "It was in their language, and spoke about black crimes, and other generalities."
"I had learned what we all learned over there," McCain said. "Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."
That McCain broke under torture doesn't make him any less of an American hero. But it does prove he's wrong to claim that harsh interrogation techniques simply don't work.
MOLON LABE!
An evil tree bears evil fruit. You can destroy as much fruit as you want, but it will always grow back, and it will always be evil.
Tear the tree out of the ground by the roots and burn it. Burn it to ash and grind out the embers with your boot until there's nothing left. Not a single spark. Not a single seed.
John McCain: Torture Worked on Me
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/11/29/100012.shtml
Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.
Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!
In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.
"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.
"I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."
The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."
Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."
The episode wasn't the only instance when McCain broke under physical pressure.
Just after his release in May 1973, he detailed his experience as a P.O.W. in a lengthy account in U.S. News & World Report.
He described the day Hanoi Hilton guards beat him "from pillar to post, kicking and laughing and scratching. After a few hours of that, ropes were put on me and I sat that night bound with ropes."
"For the next four days, I was beaten every two to three hours by different guards . . . Finally, I reached the lowest point of my 5 1/2 years in North Vietnam. I was at the point of suicide, because I saw that I was reaching the end of my rope."
McCain was taken to an interrogation room and ordered to sign a document confessing to war crimes. "I signed it," he recalled. "It was in their language, and spoke about black crimes, and other generalities."
"I had learned what we all learned over there," McCain said. "Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."
That McCain broke under torture doesn't make him any less of an American hero. But it does prove he's wrong to claim that harsh interrogation techniques simply don't work.
MOLON LABE!
An evil tree bears evil fruit. You can destroy as much fruit as you want, but it will always grow back, and it will always be evil.
Tear the tree out of the ground by the roots and burn it. Burn it to ash and grind out the embers with your boot until there's nothing left. Not a single spark. Not a single seed.
Comments
The whole justification for torture is based on getting info that will save lives of Americans. Any info of value the prisoner has that is valid, will be going stale as soon as he is captured. Beating on someone for weeks may eventually produce information that is irrelevant or no longer accurate.
Fanatical, religiously-driven terrorists are not going to break quickly or easily and by the time you sort the truth from the BS, the intel is useless.
If this is the best shot you've got trying to convinve everyone else that torture is the bee's knees, try again!
Take a close look at what you posted and you'll see that what the Vietnamese got out of McCain was (a) useless or (b) provided by the Vietnamese themselves!
That's not "actionable intell." That's a bunch of perverts who get their jollies out of seeing grown men naked and begging.[xx(]
It's my understanding that it's true ... in the old days. Now, they've sophisticated
it to the point that false information had been pretty much eliminated. Using
the 'newest chemical enhanced' methods anyone can be tortured to the
desired effect, without ending up dead or a drooler.
... and, no, I can't tell you how I know that. LOL
Oh yeah, sure... and they have computers that can read your mind.
Sorry, but pouring boiling water on someone's legs and then soaking the blisters in phophorescent liquid doesn't count as a "chemical enhanced method" - it's just plain old masochistic BS.
Torture says more about the ones inflicting it that about its effectiveness.
Hey Badwrench, all this time I thought it was Brutus...I gotta stop reading that Shapesdeer guy.
...These slime bags that ARE of the same ilk,you can nuke em for all I care. In my book they're filth and have no rights to be treated in ANY tree hugging, sensitive way,their scum.
...Reports off Al Jaboo-hoo are saying terroist out/back from gitmo
are amazed at the GREAT treatment they(scum bags) received while there (gitmo) BS! Waste of our time and money,..treat them as they would treat an AMERICAN if they had the chance. All this PC goody-goody crap I don't by into.
...Cindy She-Sham,and the rest of the bleeding hearts need go have a face to face w/the head diaper head al zababuba,...and see how long they keep THEIR heads....[:(!][^]
"their in front of us,their behind us,their to our left,and to our right...they cant get away from us now boys!"
...Being brutal just for the sake of being brutal is a waste of time,and effort. Though I can think of a lot of people that could/should be brutalized and wouldnt bother me a bit...
"their in front of us,their behind us,their to our left,and to our right...they cant get away from us now boys!"
To summarize:
-Torture takes too long, any information will be outdated.
-Torture results in what you want to hear, not accurate information
-Torturing the enemy will make them torture American prisoners even more
-Torture makes the enemy less likely to surrender and more likely to die fighting and will result in more casualties on the American side.
-The only benefit is the vengefull satisfaction you get from seeing the scum bags suffer like they make you suffer
It is not usefull, it just makes it harder to tell real threats from ones made up to end their pain, it makes that group of ~100 terrorists over there go down fighting and kill a few of our guys rather than surrender. A few of those that surrendered may have given us some intel without torture.
Now I don't consider girls walking around in short skirts and stuff like that torture, im all for providing them with the barest of essentials to survive(not to the point they loose like 100 lbs and look like they came from a german concentration camp though), and rewarding them for any information. Take away their Qu'ran and only give it back to them if they supply information etc.
But dont just "break" them using prolonged intense physical pain and harm. They surrendered to avoid harm, by taking them prisoner you and the prisoner have made an agreement not to harm each other, honor the agreement.
"their in front of us,their behind us,their to our left,and to our right...they cant get away from us now boys!"
Terrorists don't deserve life beyond time and place of capture.
What happens short of that doesn't bother me.
Kindness and civility are regarded in some third world countries as weakness and they need to be dealt with in our terms or their own terms; whichever is severest.
No ... actually, that's very outdated and archaic. The Eastern Bloc
actually perfected some pretty nasty stuff in the '80s ... as I
understand it ... that 'we' are not supposed to know about ...
being well managed in the news department. There was a blurb
about it a while back in Time or Newsweek, as I recall, but that
was it. I still have some modest/casual Navy folk I talk to on
occasion and the topic has come up a few times - informally.
Did you notice a few weeks ago somewhere on the news that
it was mentioned that some of 'our prisoners' were 'reportedly' being
sent to Bulgaria for 'interrogation' (torture) and that Amnesty International
was pretty upset about it? There is a connection there, my friend.
Anyway, trust me, or not ... 'der are vays, Comrade, der are vays!'
Enough said!
One more comment ... I don't know if anybody actually knows or cares
that we are fighting for our lives here.
We are not as concerned about truck bombs or small dirty bombs set
off in the streets of Hodunk, Iowa. What really concerns the military at
this moment is the real possibility that major American cities and/or
ports will be poofed. There may be some pretty lethal ex-Soviet stuff
floating around out there still for sale to the highest bidders.
Unfortunately, those same folks who have professed to make us all
go away just might - just might - find the capability to do just that.
I think there is a lot of stuff out there that we - the well managed
news gleaners that we are - don't know about. The missing Soviet
suitcase - although a bit bigger than suitcases - nukes did exist and
even the Ruskies profess (and have since they turned up missing)
that about 100 disappeared shortly after the collapse of the good ole
U.S.S.R.!
I'm not an alarmist, as much as someone who is concerned with his
families' survival, in the not too distant future, either. I'd rather my
government err on the side of caution than make the BIG mistake,
at all of our expense(s).
Torture=bad annihilation=much, much worse than bad
...To protect this nation, all is fair in war.[^] The "ticking bomb"
scenerio, would illicit a standing ovation from me for those who could stop the deed by ANY MEASURE. A-N-Y.
...This isnt a time to be hugging up to a stinking terroist, to make them feel all warm and fuzzy. I AM NOT saying anyone hear feels we should,let me say that out front. We sure as hell should not afford them MORE rights and priveledges than what they would bestow on us in similar circumstances. WE ARE in a war for western civilization as we know it. If the bleeding hearts don't recognize that,they might just have theirs cut out by the very people they want to "embrace" and have a "meaningful" dialogue with.
...These loons are patient (spell ck) as are/were the orientals,ie;
koreans (commies),vietnamese. Their (musloons) jihad against the west will continue until it is defeated by FORCE,as force is ALL they understand. The Euro world is in deep do-do, they REALLY dont get it...[;)]
"their in front of us,their behind us,their to our left,and to our right...they cant get away from us now boys!"
I'm with Badwrench on this one.
Against whom?
"There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain)
Eric
allamericanarmsco@frontiernet.net
All American Arms Company
www.galleryofguns.com
VIP Code: AAAC
Veteran Owned and Operated
quote:retaliatory air strikes
Against whom?
Against anybody we damn well please. Well, almost anybody. Not anybody in Saudi Arabia or North Korea.
After the end of WWII when Poland fell into the hands of the communists the police took my grandfatehr and his younger brother into custody. Their crime was that they owned a 8 unit apartment building in Krakow which was taken over by the Germans during the war. The Geramns allowed my mother's family to stay in a single unit in the building while they occupied the remainder. What the communists actually wanted was the apartment building and my grandfather and great uncle were carted off the a camp where they were branded as Nazi collaborators as well as grand capitalists (that has a nice ring to it). After a few months my great uncle gave in to the torture (daily beatings and electric shock), signed a confession and was released. My grandfather refused to admit any guilt and died in the prison of "congestive heart failure". This was a man who was never sick a day in his life and even at age sixty could still carry a 30 kilogram sack of cement up four flights of stairs. In the end the communists got what they wanted: The apartment building. My uncle was probably wise to have given in and spared himself the same amount of agony that my grandfather must have endured because his fate and that of the apartment building were settled long before the police even showed up at the door.
And I laugh, yes, LAUGH at people who say this is a "fight for our lives." It's anything but. A bunch of criminals kill Americans and you neocon cowards can't run for your holes fast enough.
Yes, it was a horrendous crime, but a struggle for our very survival? I shudder to think what World War II was if this is a fight for our very existence.
The fact is that the struggle is NOT in "if" we defeat these criminals, because we will. The true struggle is in "how." If we see fit to sully everything greater men than we have died for, then we are nothing. We are maggots living off the remnants of brave men and women lying in the ground.
We must see to it that we win on OUR terms, not the jihadis. That they torture and execute does not mean it's okay for us to do the same. We are Americans. We're not Russian, we're not French, we're not German, we're not Arab... we are AMERICAN.
Let the rest of the world rape and torture as they see fit. If you want to be like everyone else, just say so.
As for me, I prefer to remain American. And I am not so afraid that I believe victory can only be attained through the monstrous use of reprehensible tactics. We have fought far worse under more desperate conditions and emerged with our honor and integrity and humanity intact.
We did not give in to the base and carnal desires of the weak and cowardly.
I suspect today's generation don't have the spine of yesterday's men. Too unwilling to hunker down and slug it out; since the TV says they can solve a major problem in about 2 hours, why can't we? Just a little more torture and everything will be wrapped up. Oh yeah, nuke em too. No targets, but that's besides the point.
I hope everyone is satisfied with Bush's challenge to the terrorists--"Bring it on".
[:(]
and killed many thousands of civilians to end World War 2.
The myth of strategic bombing is just that, a myth.
Trying to fight a sterile war to rules we were not signatories to,
is: 1, wasteful of American lives and 2, naive
As an American, Im more concerned about conservation of American lives
than Arab lives. The concepts of "fair play" and taking the moral high ground are one crock of slime in a war. If you fight to win, then you do what it takes and get down and dirty with the enemy.
Until the terrorist support structure, and I mean the civilians are hurting enough to be screaming for peace it's not going to happen.
A terrorist waives his rights to anything but a noose and there's plenty of precedent for this in US history.
In Korea we delivered line crossers to the ROK army for interrogation.
They did what they had to do and probably shot the agents afterwards.
It didn't bother me then and delivering terrorists to the Bulgarians
doesn't bother me now.
Torture to steal property doesn't equate to coercion to obtain strategic information in my book, especially when American lives
are at stake.
The arguments presented above against torture are thin and unsubstantiable.
The arguments presented above against torture are thin and unsubstantiable.
As is our pretense to being above those who would harm us.
Sadly, you are an American. Too impatient to do the job right. Pampered by years of microwave meals, drive-thru everything, pay-per-view, and e-commerce, Americans today want it and they want it now.
That torture provides them with the answers they want in record time seems to convince those sexually-stunted masochists that torture is the way of the future.
And let's ignore the fact that the answers they want are not likely to be the truth. Too many experts, both military and civilian and far from liberal, have stated that torture is not only injurious to our moral character, but it is also unreliable and counterproductive.
And if you think that torture will "save just one American life," you're probably right... it might save JUST one right before it claims another fifty in retaliation.
Or put in a manner even the neocon mind can understand - if such a depraved course of action would not convince you to fight meaner and nastier, then why would it not convince our enemies to do the same?
That will work if both sides fight by the same rules and everything else is blessed and filled with love.
If the US enters a war against an opponent who have never heard of "Code of conduct", doesn't fight by those rules as they've lived just nicely without them or doesn't recognize soldiers right to withhold information - guess what happens?
It just takes a little more time to get the information they want, a little more pressure/pain/voltage, a little more resistance, a little more..... whatever.
In Vietnam, where it's a whole different culture, faith, country, tradition - noone can plan what happens if you get caught.
But if they sence you know something - they WILL make you talk as they could care less about an opponent.
President of the PolarBear Order
Motto : Polarbears walk a lonely path..
But we sometimes do sit back, relaxes and downs a whisky. =o)
In fact, that's what we live for.
Sadly, you are an American. Too impatient to do the job right. Pampered by years of microwave meals, drive-thru everything, pay-per-view, and e-commerce, Americans today want it and they want it now.
Pontificating pap.
v35, I for one, am not sorry you are an American.
I am sorry that some 'Americans' are so myopic, though.
Do you even know the definition of myopic or is it something you heard on the radio?
Shortsighted is obtaining answers in a way that will engender hatred for generations to come.
Shortsighted is breaking a suspect's legs and permanently disabling him or her only to find out they were not a terrorist... at least not when you got them.
Shortsighted is "torture 'em now and deal with the fallout later" ala Bush and his secret prisons in Europe.
Pick up a dictionary once in a while and you may be surprised to find out that a lot of the words you use apply not to your beloved Bush's critics, but to yourself.
...The Direct TV,fast food,trivial things. The important thing American Warriors have given us, is the freedom to choose.
...We can choose to be self indulgent, or we can choose to share and care for others generally w/out fear of reprisal from the government or others.
...I guess I fall into the baby boomer catagory,I never have/had to have immediate anything,I had/chose to work to the goal,and recieved pleasure when I attained thet goal,an achievement.
My daughter is one of the "got to have it now" crowd. Her and her husband just built a brand new 6 figure home...in their mid 20's. Am I happy for them, of course, do I think the home will be a hardship that is "too much" .."too soon"? YEP. Too much "want now" w/out for thought as to things "do happen" that can change their financial situaution.
...I guess my point is, we all have different views on how to live and what makes us happy. We ALL have that choice,thanks to the blood of so many,many of Americas finest. Now is not the time to "debate"
the political points of to torture,not to torture,time tables that only give the enemy insight into our will to "stick it out".
...Im Vietnam we lost not ONE major battle,there is no major standing army in the world that can stand toe to toe with the American warrior and win, if we stay the course,screw China,Iran,N.Korea and the other countries that "some" americans think "might" defeat us.BS! Throughout history till present day,we have PROVEN the awesome fighting ability of the American warrior.
Iwo,D-Day,Bastogne,Battle Of The Buldge,Inchon,Pusan,The A Shau,Tet,
Wei Citadale,and on and on.
...From all accounts the fighting spirit of the American warrior is as intact and strong as ever.Makes me proud. The American warrior has the ability AND the will to outfight ANY other warrior,...lets hope the politicians and the American people do also...if we snooze...we loose....
"their in front of us,their behind us,their to our left,and to our right...they cant get away from us now boys!"
"WAR" is the TOTAL distruction of ones enemy's physical,mental,and finacial. Not of the army you are fighting but of your foe both civilian and military.
Until you do this you have not won nor will you win.
Of course I'm out of my mind. It's dark and scary in there.
It's really a capitulation because the "defamer" has run out of material and needs to escape the call on his objectivity.
This technique is regularly used by illiberals.
It's sort of a shame for these people, who fancy themselves intellectuals, to be caught short on facts to support their beliefs and having to soil themselves to avoid defeat.
Put away your fiction and read some history. Better yet live some reality.
Unfortunately, there's pseudo-martial nonsense like that and then there's what Sun-Tzu and von Claustewitz said, namely that war is a military, political, and economic endeavor.
The poser will only identify the military aspect of war. They want glory and nothing else.
The businessman will bring up both the military and economic aspect of war. They see it in terms of losses and gains, but not much beyond that.
Only a real leader knows what it means to marshal all three into a successful campaign.
Unfortunately, we are a nation led by posers. They think war is only a matter of "warriors" slugging it out and the last mighty conqueror standing claims all.
But it's not that way and never has been.