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Sorry, another question on rifles

spectre7spectre7 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
edited August 2006 in General Discussion
I was prepared to plunk down the money on a Belgian Ak, and what can I not help but noticing as I scross through the AtlatnicFirearms "auctions"? A whole range of AR-type rifles that fall within the same price range.

So what's the word? Do the sub-1000$ ones jam constantly? Eat only high-dollar ammo and spurn surplus or what? specifically, I noticed the Cavalry Arms CAV-15 PATROL, Vulcan Arms CAR 16, and the Olympic Arms Pcr GI AR15. Anyone think they'd be worth it as opposed to the AK?

As far as use, I'm looking for something to spend a great deal of time shooting recreationally, and of course I would like it to have the 'potential' to use for self defense if some strange circumstance ever provided for it to be more appropriate than the 12 gauge or my sidearm.

Comments

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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm sure you mean Bulgarian AK, not Belgian. And as to these, I do not think you can do better--either preban or postban. A word about AtlanticFirearms: Everything they sell is ca-ca. They are the bottom of the bottom of the line, the Bryco/Jennings/Yugo of military style rifles.[xx(][xx(][xx(]
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    SilverBoxSilverBox Member Posts: 2,347
    edited November -1
    ohhhh I saw "ca-ca" in dances post I'm telling!!!
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    spectre7spectre7 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:A word about AtlanticFirearms: Everything they sell is ca-ca. They are the bottom of the bottom of the line, the Bryco/Jennings/Yugo of military style rifles.

    wow, I had no idea. Thanks, I was ready to plunk down money. And yeah, meant Bulgarian; got the wires crossed on that one. So your view of their rifles as 'ca ca'; that extends to there AKs as well I'd imagine.

    Hmm, definately gonna find a different source then. Your input is much appreciated.
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    hughbetchahughbetcha Member Posts: 7,801 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A word about all AK-type weapons...They're all doo-doo! For less than $1000 you can get a quality(like a Quality/Bushmaster) AR-Rifle that is much more accurate than the best AK ever made, more versatile(can be reconfigured with new uppers into all kinds of weapons from highly tactical M-4s to highly accurate match rifles) AKs are functional and reliable weapons for third-world armies and guys who like to make a lot of noise at the range. Dont fall into the trap of thinking you can buy into a "quality AK" The weapon is designed to take maximum advantage of poor quality control, poor maintainance, bad ammo etc. The less you pay for an AK, the more you get for your money. In the interest of full disclosure I'd like to admit right up front that I hate all SKS, AK type weapons and therefore may be slightly biased.
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by hughbetcha
    A word about all AK-type weapons...They're all doo-doo! For less than $1000 you can get a quality(like a Quality/Bushmaster) AR-Rifle that is much more accurate than the best AK ever made, more versatile(can be reconfigured with new uppers into all kinds of weapons from highly tactical M-4s to highly accurate match rifles) AKs are functional and reliable weapons for third-world armies and guys who like to make a lot of noise at the range. Dont fall into the trap of thinking you can buy into a "quality AK" The weapon is designed to take maximum advantage of poor quality control, poor maintainance, bad ammo etc. The less you pay for an AK, the more you get for your money. In the interest of full disclosure I'd like to admit right up front that I hate all SKS, AK type weapons and therefore may be slightly biased.

    AKs have been kicking our M1/M14/M16 * for fifty years. That's because the need for a Sergeant York/range accurate combat shoulder weapon is a myth deservedly sixty years dead. Perhaps you are not familiar with the Bulgarian and Hungarian AKs, the PolyTech Legend, the Valmet or the Galil. Too bad.
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    MosinNagantDiscipleMosinNagantDisciple Member Posts: 2,612
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by hughbetcha
    A word about all AK-type weapons...They're all doo-doo! For less than $1000 you can get a quality(like a Quality/Bushmaster) AR-Rifle that is much more accurate than the best AK ever made, more versatile(can be reconfigured with new uppers into all kinds of weapons from highly tactical M-4s to highly accurate match rifles) AKs are functional and reliable weapons for third-world armies and guys who like to make a lot of noise at the range. Dont fall into the trap of thinking you can buy into a "quality AK" The weapon is designed to take maximum advantage of poor quality control, poor maintainance, bad ammo etc. The less you pay for an AK, the more you get for your money. In the interest of full disclosure I'd like to admit right up front that I hate all SKS, AK type weapons and therefore may be slightly biased.


    Well it's obvious you're only interested in punching holes in paper. Save your money; take a stick, walk up to that target, and jab it through the bullseye.

    If you're looking for a weapon that WONT get you killed in a combat situation, take the AK47/SKS.

    My previous signature was incredibly obnoxious.
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    jujujuju Member Posts: 6,321
    edited November -1
    quote:or the Galil

    AAHhhhhh, the Galil, perhaps the finest weapon I have ever had the pleasure of shooting.

    My friend has one and other than getting a slight bump on the nose from the charging handle(I am left handed) it is a dream to shoot.

    I only wish I could afford one, but alas I cannot and they are like hens teeeth to find nowadays anyway.

    To be quite honest I was shocked when we broke it down to clean it, ITS AN AK for petes sake. A high dollar AK to be sure but an AK nonetheless.

    Man I do love that rifle

    JuJu(drooling)
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    NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    I have 4 ARs from 4 different Makers, all factory. Colt, Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, and EA Corp. One is a 11.5" with 5.5" flash hider, 2 are 16", and one is a 24" target. I love all of them and they all shoot well. The Bushmaster varmiter (sp) is super accurate more so then some of my good bolt guns ( I didnt belive it untill I got one). I also have a $300 Mak 90. I have put thousands of rounds through the Mac 90, let it sit in the gun safe for up to a year with out cleaning it after shooting it. Fed all kinds of cheep ammo though it. I have NEVER had it jam or fail to fire. I can not say the same for any of my ARs. Is it the most accurate....no, does it shoot good yes. If you are wanting something that is good for human sized targets out to 300m AKs are cheep to buy, cheep to shoot (less then $100/1000rd), and just plain fun to shoot. I like my ARs and will buy more, but if I had to choose which to run out of my house with in the middle of the night and not come back it would be the AK.

    John
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    Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:If you're looking for a weapon that WONT get you killed in a combat situation, take the AK47/SKS.

    Some of you need to remember that Red Dawn was just a movie and that the chance of fighting a guerilla cival war in our lifetime is slim to none. I am willing to bet everything I own that 99% of all AKs, SKS, AR15s (and CLONES) ande all other military style guns will only ever see combat of the paper/appliance nature and IF there ever was a situation in this country where you NEED to be better armed that the US Army most of you would wet yourselves faster than a commie can yell BOO!

    Some of y'alls is just plain funny


    ____________________________________________________
    I'm not apologizing, I am what I am
    There is no compromising, I don't give a damn
    Ozzy Osbourne - Lightning Strikes
    2004052802_Display-25.gif
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The chair is against the wall. The chair is against the wall. Lonnie has a long moustache. Lonnie has a long moustache.
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    Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I shaved

    ____________________________________________________
    I'm not apologizing, I am what I am
    There is no compromising, I don't give a damn
    Ozzy Osbourne - Lightning Strikes
    2004052802_Display-25.gif
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    drobsdrobs Member Posts: 22,549 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I was starting to think that the Belgians were communist!

    Hey Spectre how much cash you got to spend?
    What do you think you are going to do just buy one?

    I have 5 evil rifles right now and am still not happy. Here's 3 of them...
    22925ar_fal_ak_good.jpg

    So DWS those Belgian, I mean Bulgarian, AK's that Atlantic Firearms is selling are Ca-Ca?


    Regards,
    gadsden.jpg
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by drobs
    So DWS those Belgian, I mean Bulgarian, AK's that Atlantic Firearms is selling are Ca-Ca?

    That is correct. The Gordon Tech/Blue Ridge guns with the tack-welded, 80K round Steyr barrels and preban furniture were/are fine guns; Atlantic's slopped-together parts guns using commercial, aftermarket plastic furniture and lame-* muzzlebrakes are crap.
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    drobsdrobs Member Posts: 22,549 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Where do I find one of them Gorden Tech guns? Is that the same as Arsenal?
    I've been hearing that there are 2 Arsenals which is the good one?

    Regards,
    gadsden.jpg
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Gordon Technologies are the best. The Steyr chrome-lined barrels and preban wood furniture sets they used are long gone. Gordon built fine guns using a minimum of top-quality US parts to turn out a relatively few examples that, in my opinion, exceeded the quality and worksmanship of the PolyTech Legend. I have two early Gordon Tech guns (SLR-100H's) with thousands of rounds through them; they can outshoot my Valmet M76 and Galil 386 all day long. The only way to buy one is to search auctions or Gun List/Shotgun News as they are no longer being produced.
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    spectre7spectre7 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Hey Spectre how much cash you got to spend?
    What do you think you are going to do just buy one?

    Well, at first I was just going to replace my SAR1, but then I saw some of the other AK variants out there and my interests are piqued. Ideally, I would like to avoid spending more than 700; 5-6 would be perfect.

    I don't want to just run out and buy the ak-type gun I find; that's how I ended up with a Jennings many years ago [B)]

    By picking the brains of peeps here and reading ak47.net I hope to avoid a similar decision.


    quote: Where do I find one of them Gorden Tech guns? Is that the same as Arsenal?

    My searches have only yieled one for sale so far..well two actually; in a bundle. Individual cost would be about 1250.00; so it's about out of the desired range. Now that I've got the skinny on Atlantic, I'm going ot have to find a different source. Pity too; I really like the black furniture on the 101.

    btw, I've admired your pics before drobs, and you actually gave me some advice right before I got my first SAR1 and talked me into making the actual purchase. It was a fun gun, and made quite a gift for my bud.
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    MosinNagantDiscipleMosinNagantDisciple Member Posts: 2,612
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by 7mm nut
    Some of you need to remember that Red Dawn was just a movie and that the chance of fighting a guerilla cival war in our lifetime is slim to none. I am willing to bet everything I own that 99% of all AKs, SKS, AR15s (and CLONES) ande all other military style guns will only ever see combat of the paper/appliance nature and IF there ever was a situation in this country where you NEED to be better armed that the US Army most of you would wet yourselves faster than a commie can yell BOO!


    Wishful thinking. I estimate we've got another 20 years of stability before this nation breaks up into warring city-states. We're gonna need lots of cheap, effective firepower to ward off the hordes of terrorist communist zombies.

    My previous signature was incredibly obnoxious.
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    drobsdrobs Member Posts: 22,549 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Feel free to send some of those gifts this way. [:D]



    Regards,
    gadsden.jpg
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    James AyersJames Ayers Member Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    [8D]Buy a Remington 700 BDL 30-06 and Leupold 3x9-40mm scope,You will survive![:D][:D][:D][:D]

    On your mark-get set- go away!!
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    robomanroboman Member Posts: 6,436
    edited November -1
    Atlantic Firearms sells ca-ca guns? They always seemed to have some decent stuff assembled by Vector (not Vulcan) Arms. Was thinking about one of their UZI rifles actually.


    signew.JPG
    aniGif.gif
    "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long..."
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by roboman
    Atlantic Firearms sells ca-ca guns? They always seemed to have some decent stuff assembled by Vector (not Vulcan) Arms. Was thinking about one of their UZI rifles actually.

    Put a Vector next to an IMI model A or B and see what you think.
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    robomanroboman Member Posts: 6,436
    edited November -1
    True, but you could also put the pile of dollars needed to buy an IMI compared to a Vector and see just as much disparity.


    signew.JPG
    aniGif.gif
    "The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long..."
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The IMI is twice the price. But the IMI will never be worth less; the Vektor will never be worth more. And the disparity to which you refer still don't mean Vektors aren't ca-ca.
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    drobsdrobs Member Posts: 22,549 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    DWS, now that you are predicting future gun values, do you have any stock tips?



    Regards,
    gadsden.jpg
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by drobs
    DWS, now that you are predicting future gun values, do you have any stock tips?

    Buy Merck
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    bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    Ah, the honest drug maker?

    040103cowboy_shooting_one_gun_md_clr_prv.gifBig Daddy my heros have always been cowboys,they still are it seems
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    spectre7spectre7 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I appreciate all the info DWS. I was thinking as though the AKs on Atlantic were of the same 'type' as the Gordon technologies you've been referencing. Guess I get to spend some quality time with the Shotgun news and Gunlists now.

    I thought maybe the big differences were in term of value/cost rather than outright performance. Glad you set me straight. thanks dude.
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    spectre7spectre7 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote: DWS, now that you are predicting future gun values, do you have any stock tips?


    Buy Merck

    No way, Pfizer; then I can buy an AR AND a nice AK. [:D]

    Spectre7-Not just an investor, but a user...hehe
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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    spectre7: $1250 seems awfully high, even for a Gordon Tech. I've seen them within the last few months for under $850. Keep checking, and if you can, get only a SLR-100H.
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    beantownshootahbeantownshootah Member Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by juju
    quote:or the Galil

    AAHhhhhh, the Galil, perhaps the finest weapon I have ever had the pleasure of shooting.

    My friend has one and other than getting a slight bump on the nose from the charging handle(I am left handed) it is a dream to shoot.

    I only wish I could afford one, but alas I cannot and they are like hens teeeth to find nowadays anyway.

    To be quite honest I was shocked when we broke it down to clean it, ITS AN AK for petes sake. A high dollar AK to be sure but an AK nonetheless.

    Man I do love that rifle

    JuJu(drooling)


    I understand its just a souped up AK with nice tolerances and good sights. Mr. Galil was even clever enough to install a built in beer cap opener into the rifle (no joke. . .so the troops wouldn't damage the gun by using the mag lips or some other part to pry open their brews).

    galil-sar.jpg

    But except for a few elite units, even the Israelis don't use it. Too pricey, too heavy, not as adaptable, etc.

    http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/m16vsak47.htm

    At one point the scuttle was that it was too expensive, but the fact is, the M16 platform is more versatile,a nd
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    spectre7spectre7 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Right, but the m16 is military rifle of presumeably constant quality. As far as civilian type rifles are concerned, they are apparently of very variable quality and much greater cost than the Ak-type.

    I think I'm going to take DWS's advice and pursue the Gordon Tech Rifles, and failing that I'll look into the SAM 7 about which I've read several good reviews.
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    Matt45Matt45 Member Posts: 3,185
    edited November -1
    spectre-

    I'm pretty sure I can get you a deal on an SA-7, but importation and shipping would most definetly be your problem.........[:)]

    fm_cr.jpgcomp45.gif

    Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!

    People
    Eating
    Tasty
    Animals
    Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
    Guess what?
    You have the wrong hands.
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    spectre7spectre7 Member Posts: 965 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Haha, I would imagine you could, but I like all of my orifices thoroughly un-probed by the ATF. I was actually talking about the US manufactured SAM-7s that come out of Aresenal USA *i think*; I've seen a couple of positive reviews regarding them.
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    Matt45Matt45 Member Posts: 3,185
    edited November -1
    quote:Some of you need to remember that Red Dawn was just a movie and that the chance of fighting a guerilla cival war in our lifetime is slim to none.

    Now THERE's a depressing thought..................[V]

    fm_cr.jpgcomp45.gif

    Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!

    People
    Eating
    Tasty
    Animals
    Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "Keep guns out of the wrong hands."
    Guess what?
    You have the wrong hands.
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    frankcastle13frankcastle13 Member Posts: 1,182 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What country makes the best AK? I've been scrolling through gunbroker and there's Yugoslavian, Romanian, Bulgarian, etc. I've always wondered about this.
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    minitruck83minitruck83 Member Posts: 5,369
    edited November -1
    quote:
    most of you would wet yourselves faster than a commie can yell BOO!

    Some of y'alls is just plain funny


    And what exactly did you do the first time you realized "oh (expletive deleted) those are BULLETS"!!!!!!?



    Allen
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    CaptplaidCaptplaid Member Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would not pay no where near $1000 for any kind of AK.

    MAK 90 or WASR around $300 is more agreeable. If you what to pay to accessorize it, then go for it.

    Cousin has a Colt H-Bar. There is no comparison. The H-Bar is far and away better. It is a superior shot. No "collectors" AK would compare to it, but an AK at 300-400 what the heck. It is a good recreational shot at that price.
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