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Computer Software analyzes the Bible...

n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
edited July 2011 in General Discussion
with some pretty astounding results. Seems as if the software reaffirms what teams of scholars have said for hundreds of years...Interesting read from Fox News:



Technology
Special Software Sheds Light on Who Really Wrote the Bible

Published June 30, 2011

| Associated Press



A Bible handwritten in Latin Wikimedia

Wikimedia

A Bible handwritten in Latin, on display in Malmesbury Abbey, Wiltshire, England.

Software developed by an Israeli team is giving intriguing new hints about what researchers believe to be the multiple hands that wrote the Bible.

The new software analyzes style and word choices to distinguish parts of a single text written by different authors, and when applied to the Bible its algorithm teased out distinct writerly voices in the holy book.

The program, part of a sub-field of artificial intelligence studies known as authorship attribution, has a range of potential applications -- from helping law enforcement to developing new computer programs for writers. But the Bible provided a tempting test case for the algorithm's creators.

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For millions of Jews and Christians, it's a tenet of their faith that God is the author of the core text of the Hebrew Bible -- the Torah, also known as the Pentateuch or the Five Books of Moses. But since the advent of modern biblical scholarship, academic researchers have believed the text was written by a number of different authors whose work could be identified by seemingly different ideological agendas and linguistic styles and the different names they used for God.

Today, scholars generally split the text into two main strands. One is believed to have been written by a figure or group known as the "priestly" author, because of apparent connections to the temple priests in Jerusalem. The rest is "non-priestly." Scholars have meticulously gone over the text to ascertain which parts belong to which strand.

When the new software was run on the Pentateuch, it found the same division, separating the "priestly" and "non-priestly." It matched up with the traditional academic division at a rate of 90 percent -- effectively recreating years of work by multiple scholars in minutes, said Moshe Koppel of Bar Ilan University near Tel Aviv, the computer science professor who headed the research team.

"We have thus been able to largely recapitulate several centuries of painstaking manual labor with our automated method," the Israeli team announced in a paper presented last week in Portland, Oregon, at the annual conference of the Association for Computational Linguistics. The team includes a computer science doctoral student, Navot Akiva, and a father-son duo: Nachum Dershowitz, a Tel Aviv University computer scientist, and his son, Idan Dershowitz, a Bible scholar at Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

The places in which the program disagreed with accepted scholarship might prove interesting leads for scholars. The first chapter of Genesis, for example, is usually thought to have been written by the "priestly" author, but the software indicated it was not.

Similarly, the book of Isaiah is largely thought to have been written by two distinct authors, with the second author taking over after Chapter 39. The software's results agreed that the book might have two authors, but suggested the second author's section actually began six chapters earlier, in Chapter 33.

The differences "have the potential to generate fruitful discussion among scholars," said Michael Segal of Hebrew University's Bible Department, who was not involved in the project.

Over the past decade, computer programs have increasingly been assisting Bible scholars in searching and comparing texts, but the novelty of the new software seems to be in its ability to take criteria developed by scholars and apply them through a technological tool more powerful in many respects than the human mind, Segal said.

Before applying the software to the Pentateuch and other books of the Bible, the researchers first needed a more objective test to prove the algorithm could correctly distinguish one author from another.

So they randomly jumbled the Hebrew Bible's books of Ezekiel and Jeremiah into one text and ran the software. It sorted the mixed-up text into its component parts "almost perfectly," the researchers announced.

The program recognizes repeated word selections, like uses of the Hebrew equivalents of "if," "and" and "but," and notices synonyms: In some places, for example, the Bible gives the word for "staff" as "makel," while in others it uses "mateh" for the same object. The program then separates the text into strands it believes to be the work of different people.

Other researchers have looked at linguistic fingerprints in less sacred texts as a way of identifying unknown writers. In the 1990s, the Vassar English professor Donald Foster famously identified the journalist Joe Klein as the anonymous author of the book "Primary Colors" by looking at minor details like punctuation.

In 2003, Koppel was part of a research team that developed software that could successfully tell, four times out of five, if the author of a text was male or female. Women, the researchers found, are far more likely to use personal pronouns like "she" and "he," while men prefer determiners like "that" and "this" -- women, in other words, talk about people, while men prefer to talk about things. That success sparked debate about how gender shapes the way we think and communicate.

Research of this kind has potential applications for law enforcement, allowing authorities to catch imposters or to match anonymous texts with possible authors by identifying linguistic tics. Because the analysis can also help identify gender and age, it might also allow advertisers to better target customers.

The new software might be used to investigate Shakespeare's plays and settle lingering questions of authorship or co-authorship, mused Graeme Hirst, a professor of computational linguistics at the University of Toronto. Or it could be applied to modern texts: "It would be interesting to see if in more cases we can tease apart who wrote what," Hirst said.

The algorithm might also lead to the creation of a style checker for documents prepared by multiple authors or committees, helping iron out awkward style variations and creating a uniform text, Hirst suggested.

What the algorithm won't answer, say the researchers who created it, is the question of whether the Bible is human or divine. Three of the four scholars, including Koppel, are religious Jews who subscribe in some form to the belief that the Torah was dictated to Moses in its entirety by a single author: God.

For academic scholars, the existence of different stylistic threads in the Bible indicates human authorship.

But the research team says in their paper they aren't addressing "how or why such distinct threads exist."

"Those for whom it is a matter of faith that the Pentateuch is not a composition of multiple writers can view the distinction investigated here as that of multiple styles," they said.

In other words, there's no reason why God could not write a book in different voices.

"No amount of research is going to resolve that issue," said Koppel.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/06/29/algorithm-answers-who-wrote-bible/#ixzz1QpI2wpZ9
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Comments

  • woodshed87woodshed87 Member Posts: 25,785
    edited November -1
  • cactuspete1cactuspete1 Member Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It has been said as long as I can remember that the bible had many authors, nothing new there, Seems as if they just added more mumbo jumbo to the existing mumbo jumbo, and their own words that there still is no proof of anything.

    Remember a computer is only as good as the information fed it by humans. A computer cannot think.
  • River RatRiver Rat Member Posts: 9,022
    edited November -1
    It is a huge leap to say "this is proof that the Bible had human authors." In fact, it was written by many human authors, and they each had distinct writing styles. But as a Christian I believe all of them were inspired by God. They wrote what God wanted to say, and what He wanted us to hear.

    After all, a loving God WOULD leave us a road map to get home.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,779 ******
    edited November -1
    too bad those hundreds of scholars didn't do their homework. Jesus himself debunks their authorship theories.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • scottm21166scottm21166 Member Posts: 20,723
    edited November -1
    The bible was written by scribes hundreds of years after the inspiration was provided by "GOD". Before that it was passed by oral tradition one person to the next.
    Play the school game "I got a secret" and see how different the story is by the time it gets back to you.
    Many books of the Bible were eliminated at the counsil of Nicea as the church edited the inspired word of GOD (and before) so we will never have the complete story nor do we need it if we live by faith.
    That means we are left to live by faith and by the guidence of the Holy Spirit until Christ's return.
    I am so grateful that I need only believe in Christ as the risen savior and eternal life is assured. I will have plenty of time to learn the details.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,779 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by scottm21166
    The bible was written by scribes hundreds of years after the inspiration was provided by "GOD". Before that it was passed by oral tradition one person to the next.
    Play the school game "I got a secret" and see how different the story is by the time it gets back to you.
    Many books of the Bible were eliminated at the counsil of Nicea as the church edited the inspired word of GOD (and before) so we will never have the complete story nor do we need it if we live by faith.
    That means we are left to live by faith and by the guidence of the Holy Spirit until Christ's return.
    I am so grateful that I need only believe in Christ as the risen savior and eternal life is assured. I will have plenty of time to learn the details.
    rumor and disinformation.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • AmishAmish Member Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wasn't the New Testament written hundreds of years after Christ?
    http://carm.org/wasnt-new-testament-written-hundreds-years-after-christ

    Covers who wrote the NT books of the Bible and when.

    School textbooks on the otherhand are full of errors and outright lies re science and history. Anyone who wants to raise their children as a Christian and not secular should strongly consider homeschooling. The schools are being used to brainwash the children. Brainwashing is done by governments to change their citizens. Secularism has been the agenda since marxism found in the manifesto.

    Too much manipulation of the software possible, and they began with a poor manuscript, the Latin Vulgate. But nice to see they arrived at some positive results.
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,779 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Amish
    Wasn't the New Testament written hundreds of years after Christ?
    http://carm.org/wasnt-new-testament-written-hundreds-years-after-christ

    Covers who wrote the NT books of the Bible and when.

    School textbooks on the otherhand are full of errors and outright lies re science and history. Anyone who wants to raise their children as a Christian and not secular should strongly consider homeschooling. The schools are being used to brainwash the children. Brainwashing is done by governments to change their citizens. Secularism has been the agenda since marxism found in the manifesto.

    Too much manipulation of the software possible, and they began with a poor manuscript, the Latin Vulgate. But nice to see they arrived at some positive results.
    the answer, of course, is no.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • HappyNanoqHappyNanoq Member Posts: 12,023
    edited November -1
    Bible written by man

    Program written by man (probably even a man with certain faith, which makes the test "coloured" in that direction)

    How would it NOT find clues..??


    Plus it probably uses Google to find phonenumbers for the people who wrote the original papers that eventually became "the book".



    Many papers were written a long time after.

    Thus... faith is just heresay.
  • Oso2142Oso2142 Member Posts: 2,940
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    quote:Originally posted by Amish
    Wasn't the New Testament written hundreds of years after Christ?
    http://carm.org/wasnt-new-testament-written-hundreds-years-after-christ

    Covers who wrote the NT books of the Bible and when.

    School textbooks on the otherhand are full of errors and outright lies re science and history. Anyone who wants to raise their children as a Christian and not secular should strongly consider homeschooling. The schools are being used to brainwash the children. Brainwashing is done by governments to change their citizens. Secularism has been the agenda since marxism found in the manifesto.

    Too much manipulation of the software possible, and they began with a poor manuscript, the Latin Vulgate. But nice to see they arrived at some positive results.
    the answer, of course, is no.


    Check your facts, Mr. Perfect!

    Do you think think that it was written right after the women went to anoint the body of Christ? That's terribly foolish to believe, don't you think? Perhaps they burned the story onto a CD?
  • jeffb1911jeffb1911 Member Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It does appear that there are many people who have not learned yet that it is indeed hard to kick against the goads.
  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 49,589 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Actually almost all of the Old Testament was written between 600 and 800 BC. (BCE makes no sense to me since it is a christ-less way of saying before Christ) Most of it is not historacally accurate and was written to glorify the the Temple period of Jerusalem and the Davidic dynasty.

    One of the main problems with Biblical Archeology is that it started with archeologists saying, "the ancient writers of the Torah must have been historical figures writing about history, let's see if we can find the proof of that history." They should have said, "let's see what history reveals."
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,779 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Oso2142
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    quote:Originally posted by Amish
    Wasn't the New Testament written hundreds of years after Christ?
    http://carm.org/wasnt-new-testament-written-hundreds-years-after-christ

    Covers who wrote the NT books of the Bible and when.

    School textbooks on the otherhand are full of errors and outright lies re science and history. Anyone who wants to raise their children as a Christian and not secular should strongly consider homeschooling. The schools are being used to brainwash the children. Brainwashing is done by governments to change their citizens. Secularism has been the agenda since marxism found in the manifesto.

    Too much manipulation of the software possible, and they began with a poor manuscript, the Latin Vulgate. But nice to see they arrived at some positive results.
    the answer, of course, is no.


    Check your facts, Mr. Perfect!

    Do you think think that it was written right after the women went to anoint the body of Christ? That's terribly foolish to believe, don't you think? Perhaps they burned the story onto a CD?
    It wasn't written centuries after the fact. It was written within decades. Check YOUR facts (you might start by going to that link).
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,779 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by He Dog
    Actually almost all of the Old Testament was written between 600 and 800 BC. (BCE makes no sense to me since it is a christ-less way of saying before Christ) Most of it is not historacally accurate and was written to glorify the the Temple period of Jerusalem and the Davidic dynasty.

    One of the main problems with Biblical Archeology is that it started with archeologists saying, "the ancient writers of the Torah must have been historical figures writing about history, let's see if we can find the proof of that history." They should have said, "let's see what history reveals."
    rumor and disinformation.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • AmishAmish Member Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by HappyNanoq
    Bible written by man

    Many papers were written a long time after.

    Thus... faith is just heresay.



    Of course it was written by man. Who would you think wrote it? God used man to write many books that make up the Bible. The Bible itself is confirmed repeatedly with a long HISTORY and SCIENCE.

    .
    .

    Babylon and the Bible
    Author: Professor Walter J. Veith, PhD

    Two hundred years ago, scholars doubted whether Babylon ever existed. The only record could be found in the Bible. Critics used the story of Babylon, and what they called its "non-historic kings," to discount Scripture. However, Babylon was discovered and excavated in 1898.

    We know today that Babylon was one of the first cities in the world, and founded by Nimrod, great-grandson of Noah (Genesis 10:9-10). Archaeologists have found his name on many inscriptions and tablets, while a massive head of Nimrod has been excavated near Calah on the Tigris River.
  • cactuspete1cactuspete1 Member Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    According to what I have read the NT was written somewhere between 90 and 150 years after the fact, There, according to history, none of the writers were present at any of the events depicted in the bible and therefor it is all Hearsay. A Note: Hearsay will not stand up in court.
  • buschmasterbuschmaster Member Posts: 14,255 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    the material that would result in the new testament started to be written by various authors about 70 AD. some of it was written as late as the 200's AD.

    one interesting fact is that so many gospels were written but rejected by the church as "God's Word" even though they were written by the same authors, and included lengthy quotes, directives and admonitions from Jesus himself. why those would be rejected, labeled apocrypha and even heretical, is beyond my comprehension.

    if they had been written later by the very same author who stuck to his story, he would have been burned for his heresy.

    anyway some of them are quite notable.

    The Gospel of Mary
    The Sophia (Wisdom) of Jesus Christ
    The Gospel Of Thomas
    The Gospel Of Philip
    The Gospel Of Truth
    The Gospel Of Judas

    want to read them? http://roman-forums.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,779 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by cactuspete1
    According to what I have read the NT was written somewhere between 90 and 150 years after the fact, There, according to history, none of the writers were present at any of the events depicted in the bible and therefor it is all Hearsay. A Note: Hearsay will not stand up in court.
    Either your source was wrong, or your recollection of it is. All of the NT writers wrote eyewitness accounts. Matthew knew shorthand (as a requirement for being a tax collector) and was able to transcribe verbatim many of the speeches.

    Late dates for the writing of the NT put it at 90-150 AD (not 90-150 years after the fact) and most of those dates are challenged by better research putting it much earlier (see the link above).
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • wpagewpage Member Posts: 10,203 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Very interesting...

    Good post!
  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 49,589 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry Mr. Perfect, your faith is getting in your way. The Bible is a great book, but very poor history.
  • AmishAmish Member Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
    the material that would result in the new testament started to be written by various authors about 70 AD. some of it was written as late as the 200's AD.

    one interesting fact is that so many gospels were written but rejected by the church as "God's Word" even though they were written by the same authors, and included lengthy quotes, directives and admonitions from Jesus himself. why those would be rejected, labeled apocrypha and even heretical, is beyond my comprehension.

    if they had been written later by the very same author who stuck to his story, he would have been burned for his heresy.

    anyway some of them are quite notable.

    The Gospel of Mary
    The Sophia (Wisdom) of Jesus Christ
    The Gospel Of Thomas
    The Gospel Of Philip
    The Gospel Of Truth
    The Gospel Of Judas

    want to read them? http://roman-forums.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=10


    Some of these have historical significance but as far as being scripture they were never considered to be. We have letters of those early Christians and know what they considered canon, and that is what was canonized. I'm glad you're interested in the Bible but all the canonized books were completed before the close of the first century and translated into the Greek as the Gospel went to the Gentile. (see earlier link from carm.org^)

    21 reasons why the Apocrypha is not inspired:

    1.The Roman Catholic Church did not officially canonize the Apocrypha until the Council of Trent (1546 AD). This was in part because the Apocrypha contained material which supported certain Catholic doctrines, such as purgatory, praying for the dead, and the treasury of merit.

    2.Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

    3.Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.

    4.These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.

    5.They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

    6.They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.

    7.The Apocrypha inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.

    It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.(2 Maccabees 12:39-46)

    8.The apocrypha contains offensive materials unbecoming of God's authorship.

    Ecclesiasticus 25:19 Any iniquity is insignificant compared to a wife's iniquity.

    Ecclesiasticus 25:24 From a woman sin had its beginning. Because of her we all die.

    Ecclesiasticus 22:3 It is a disgrace to be the father of an undisciplined, and the birth of a daughter is a loss.

    9.It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation.

    10.The apocryphal books themselves make reference to what we call the Silent 400 years, where there was no prophets of God to write inspired materials.

    And they laid up the stones in the mountain of the temple in a convenient place, till there should come a prophet, and give answer concerning them.(1 Maccabees 4:46)

    And there was a great tribulation in Israel, such as was not since the day, that there was no prophet seen in Israel.(1 Maccabees 9:27)

    And that the Jews, and their priests, had consented that he should be their prince, and high priest for ever, till there should arise a faithful prophet.(1 Maccabees 14:41)

    11.Josephus rejected the apocryphal books as inspired and this reflected Jewish thought at the time of Jesus

    12.The Manual of Discipline in the Dead Sea Scrolls rejected the apocrypha as inspired.

    13.The Council of Jamnia held the same view rejected the apocrypha as inspired.

    14.Although it was occasionally quoted in early church writings, it was nowhere accepted in a canon. Melito (AD 170) and Origen rejected the Apocrypha,(Eccl. Hist. VI. 25, Eusebius) as does the Muratorian Canon.

    15.Jerome vigorously resisted including the Apocrypha in his Latin Vulgate Version (400 AD), but was overruled. As a result, the standard Roman Catholic Bible throughout the medieval period contained it. Thus, it gradually came to be revered by the average clergyman. Still, many medieval Catholic scholars realized that it was not inspired.

    16.The terms "protocanonical" and "deuterocanonical" are used by Catholics to signify respectively those books of Scripture that were received by the entire Church from the beginning as inspired, and those whose inspiration came to be recognized later, after the matter had been disputed by certain Fathers and local churches.

    17.Pope Damasus (366-384) authorized Jerome to translate the Latin Vulgate. The Council of Carthage declared this translation as "the infallible and authentic Bible." Jerome was the first to describe the extra 7 Old Testament books as the "Apocrypha" (doubtful authenticity). Needless to say, Jerome's Latin Vulgate did not include the Apocrypha.

    18.Cyril (born about A.D. 315)- "Read the divine Scriptures - namely, the 22 books of the Old Testament which the 72 interpreters translated" (the Septuagint)

    19.The apocrypha wasn't included at first in the Septuagint, but was appended by the Alexandrian Jews, and was not listed in any of the catalogues of the inspired books till the 4th century

    20.Hilary (bishop of Poictiers, 350 A.D.) rejected the apocrypha (Prologue to the Psalms, Sec. 15)

    21.Epiphanius (the great opposer of heresy, 360 A.D.) rejected them all. Referring to Wisdom of Solomon & book of Jesus Sirach, he said "These indeed are useful books & profitable, but they are not placed in the number of the canonical."
  • AmishAmish Member Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by He Dog
    Sorry Mr. Perfect, your faith is getting in your way. The Bible is a great book, but very poor history.


    Such as? It is more likely your history is very poor. There's a lot of that going around due to secular government schools and the media.
  • cactuspete1cactuspete1 Member Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    After the fact means after AD. All stories in the NT were written way after the fabled mans death. No eye witnesses to any of the events in Jesus's life. from 90 to 150 years after, People didnt live that long. Why do all the passages have jesus speaking in the third person? Writer: And jesus said to so and so.. HEARSAY at its best.
  • scrumpyjackscrumpyjack Member Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wow...a thread about Evolution and The Origin of Species never lasts this long.

    But once again, this type of thread was started by Walking Eagle, the one who never violates posting guidelines. Do you run your household with the same, "Do as I say, not as I do" philosophy?[xx(]
  • n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427
    edited November -1
    No! A thread about Evolution would go against the grain of the Religious in here so that would be a total NO NO![:o)][}:)]It can only be one way in here, you got to be a believer.[xx(]
  • scottm21166scottm21166 Member Posts: 20,723
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by scottm21166
    The bible was written by scribes hundreds of years after the inspiration was provided by "GOD". Before that it was passed by oral tradition one person to the next.

    If that is the tradition you hold, then most books of the NT must be spurious as most claim to be written by one of the Apostles or another. But let us be clear....it is only a tradition.



    Play the school game "I got a secret" and see how different the story is by the time it gets back to you.

    Unless God has an interest in preserving His word. But, then, other books and traditions must be in error, then, eh ?

    Many books of the Bible were eliminated at the counsil of Nicea as the church edited the inspired word of GOD (and before) so we will never have the complete story nor do we need it if we live by faith.


    That is a tautology, and a logical error. No books of the bible were removed at Nicea. The canon of scripture was recognized long before the council, and those which did not meet the canon were labeled as Apocryphal, or worse, heretical. But the council was only applying the canon, the measure of what inspired text was to be. They did not create it, as it is based upon logical precepts, such as non-contradiction, etc, they only recognized the principle and applied it.

    That means we are left to live by faith and by the guidence of the Holy Spirit until Christ's return.

    Only if you wish to debase scripture and apply another standard.
    I am so grateful that I need only believe in Christ as the risen savior and eternal life is assured. I will have plenty of time to learn the details.

    Like the Bereans ?


    I did make a mistake. I should have said "written down by scribes". the confluence of languages (Greek, latin and aramaic) were often mistranslated from those original documents as the scriptural canon itself was constructed.
    If I were trying to put an entire group of people under one idea. (as constantine was) I would include all the written materials that supported my belief (even if I prayed about it) and to exclude the written testimony that tended to dissagree with my position or that was open to interpretation.
    As someone else mentioned, many books, (texts) recently discovered tell a more complete story of the gospel.
    It always bothered me that the NT contains so little about the actual life and words of Christ himself.
    Amazingly, many of those texts come from the DSS written by the Hesseins and hidden away, safe from the cleansing fires of the counsil of Nicea who sought to destroy all texts pertaining to the faith that were not included in the canon.
    you obviously know alot more about this than I do so I speak only as a layperson confused by that dilema
  • Blade SlingerBlade Slinger Member Posts: 5,891
    edited November -1
    The question arrises then: Who will ever know for sure[?]
  • AmishAmish Member Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by cactuspete1
    After the fact means after AD. All stories in the NT were written way after the fabled mans death. No eye witnesses to any of the events in Jesus's life. from 90 to 150 years after, People didnt live that long. Why do all the passages have jesus speaking in the third person? Writer: And jesus said to so and so.. HEARSAY at its best.

    Suppose you're one who would claim Jesus needs to write a book or appear to you daily to believe he is who He said? Witnesses are more reliable that a non witnessed account.

    Though some say that the New Testament was written 100-300 years after Christ died, the truth is that it was written before the close of the first century by those who either knew Christ personally, had encountered him, or were under the direction of those who were His disciples.
    http://carm.org/wasnt-new-testament-written-hundreds-years-after-christ
    They cover the reasons this is so. If it were not so, the Jews of the time would not have followed him. The first Christians were the Nazarenes.

    .
    .

    "The Nazarene sect used in the Book of Acts clearly referred to both Jewish and Gentile followers of Jesus' Apostles......they accepted the virgin birth of Jesus.

    The Nazarenes were originally Jewish converts of the Apostles who fled Jerusalem because of Jesus' warning of its coming siege. They fled to Pella, Peraea (which is northeast of Jerusalem), and eventually spread outwards to Beroea and Bashanitis, where they permanently settled."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(sect)
  • gruntledgruntled Member Posts: 8,402
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by River Rat
    It is a huge leap to say "this is proof that the Bible had human authors." In fact, it was written by many human authors, and they each had distinct writing styles. But as a Christian I believe all of them were inspired by God. They wrote what God wanted to say, and what He wanted us to hear.

    After all, a loving God WOULD leave us a road map to get home.


    So how about the Koran or the Book of Morman or any other "sacred" books? Your "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" attitude works for all of them.
  • RogueStatesmanRogueStatesman Member Posts: 5,760
    edited November -1
    An elderly gentleman once told me that if you don't have anything worthwhile to say, then always be sure to be ...










































































    IBTL![8D]
  • buschmasterbuschmaster Member Posts: 14,255 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    quote:Originally posted by He Dog
    Actually almost all of the Old Testament was written between 600 and 800 BC. (BCE makes no sense to me since it is a christ-less way of saying before Christ) Most of it is not historacally accurate and was written to glorify the the Temple period of Jerusalem and the Davidic dynasty.

    One of the main problems with Biblical Archeology is that it started with archeologists saying, "the ancient writers of the Torah must have been historical figures writing about history, let's see if we can find the proof of that history." They should have said, "let's see what history reveals."
    rumor and disinformation.

    not quite.

    The jews say that Yaweh revealed five books to Moses in the 13th century BC. these they call the Pentateuch, also known as the Torah. they were written in hebrew on leather.

    with the dispersal of jews to all different countries, many of them had forgotten how to speak hebrew. so a number of jewish scholars got together and translated the Pentateuch into greek so they all could read it. greek was the common language in all of the civilized world. the process took from the 3d century to the 1st century BC.

    that was called the Septuagint, or LXX. (a later Latin designation) there are various reasons why they call it the Septuagint. it was divided into 72 books, or there were 72 scholars, or it took them 72 days, or all of the above. (it should actually be called the LXXII)

    which affirms just how notorious revisionists of history the jews were. the story also goes that

    quote:In the 2nd Century BC, the head librarian of the Library at Alexandria (Demetrios of Phaleron) asked the King of Egypt (Ptolemy Philadelphus) to summon some number of Jews to transcribe the whole of their Jewish Law, then compiled in Hebrew, into Greek for the benefit of the library.

    Supposedly Ptolemy entertained six scribes each from the twelve tribes of Israel, weeping for joy at their arrival and questioning them for a week (they answer everything most wisely of course) in trade for 100,000 Jewish "captives", thus ending the "Jewish captivity" started by the Babylonians centuries before. the 72 translators complete their task in 72 days and put a curse on anyone who alters the translation.

    you can read that story here, written by a jew, and decide for yourself if you are having your chain yanked or not.

    http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/aristeas.htm
  • cactuspete1cactuspete1 Member Posts: 1,513 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:It always bothered me that the NT contains so little about the actual life and words of Christ himself

    It is because there were no eyewitnesses to anything Jesus did. All written by these scribes through handed down stories for about 4000 years. Mithra had the same story line as this jesus, along with a dozen other ancient gods. Too many parallels for the Jesus story not to have been stolen from the pagan religions.

    There is no proof that many of the biblical characters even existed.. I have my Doubts about Noah, as every cultur had its mythical flood.


    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
  • Removed at users request.Removed at users request. Member Posts: 3,027
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by He Dog
    Sorry Mr. Perfect, your faith is getting in your way. The Bible is a great book, but very poor history.


    Please provide an example.

    I would be interested.


    That is a very broad statement. I'd be interested in an example as well.
  • AmishAmish Member Posts: 1,383 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by cactuspete1
    quote:It always bothered me that the NT contains so little about the actual life and words of Christ himself

    It is because there were no eyewitnesses to anything Jesus did. All written by these scribes through handed down stories for about 4000 years. Mithra had the same story line as this jesus, along with a dozen other ancient gods. Too many parallels for the Jesus story not to have been stolen from the pagan religions.

    There is no proof that many of the biblical characters even existed.. I have my Doubts about Noah, as every cultur had its mythical flood.


    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html


    Mithra was the religion of pagan Rome. It has no similarity to Jesus or biblical accounts. Neither do any other religions BC. All these claims arose only after the fact from the Gnostics. Here's a list that have been debunked..
    http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Home.html

    I've a long c&p of historians that record Jesus and early Christian followers that i'm not putting here. You are welcome to visit here or view the film. Since these historians were there at the time their word is rather final on the matter.
    www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-106258572219500475

    The book of Genesis is the oldest text on the planet. The other flood accounts are only corruptions of the real event told in Genesis. Genesis was compiled by Moses from tablets. (Wiseman Hypothesis)
  • buschmasterbuschmaster Member Posts: 14,255 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    quote:Originally posted by cactuspete1
    According to what I have read the NT was written somewhere between 90 and 150 years after the fact, There, according to history, none of the writers were present at any of the events depicted in the bible and therefor it is all Hearsay. A Note: Hearsay will not stand up in court.
    Either your source was wrong, or your recollection of it is. All of the NT writers wrote eyewitness accounts. Matthew knew shorthand (as a requirement for being a tax collector) and was able to transcribe verbatim many of the speeches.
    [:D][:D][:D] omg you are delerious [:D][:D][:D] lmao

    NOTHING in the new testament was a firsthand account. their own stories say it was secondhand. "so-and-so says this is what happened..."

    did you even read the bible you are talking about?

    maybe you had it read to you. most medieval people, who had the bible read to them by clergy in church, thought Jesus wrote the bible. why don't you just say that. Jesus Wrote The Bible. all of it. the old testament too.

    where are the firsthand accounts of earthquakes, a solar eclipse and dead people rising from their graves and walking into town when Jesus was crucified? how did that entirely escape the notice of everybody else including chroniclers and historians?

    matt. 27:52
    tombs were opened, and many saints who had died were brought back to life.

    matt. 28:2
    Suddenly there was a powerful earthquake, because an angel of the Lord had come down from heaven, approached the stone, rolled it away, and was sitting on top of it.
  • calrugerfancalrugerfan Member Posts: 18,209
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by SLING BLADE
    The question arrises then: Who will ever know for sure[?]


    Why, that's easy.

    Everybody.


    Ding Ding Ding Ding! Eventually, all will be revealed and everybody will know who had the whole truth, who had partial truth, and who was flat out wrong.
  • buschmasterbuschmaster Member Posts: 14,255 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Amish
    quote:Originally posted by cactuspete1
    quote:It always bothered me that the NT contains so little about the actual life and words of Christ himself

    It is because there were no eyewitnesses to anything Jesus did. All written by these scribes through handed down stories for about 4000 years. Mithra had the same story line as this jesus, along with a dozen other ancient gods. Too many parallels for the Jesus story not to have been stolen from the pagan religions.

    There is no proof that many of the biblical characters even existed.. I have my Doubts about Noah, as every cultur had its mythical flood.


    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html


    Mithra was the religion of pagan Rome. It has no similarity to Jesus or biblical accounts. Neither do any other religions BC. All these claims arose only after the fact from the Gnostics.


    this gets funnier by the minute! christianity has everything in common with every Vegetation God there ever was.

    the early christians were upset that their religion sounded so much like Mithraism, which was so popular it has long been acknowledged that if it weren't for christianity, the same thing would have happened with Mithraism.

    keep going, this is entertaining! [:D]
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,779 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by cactuspete1
    After the fact means after AD. All stories in the NT were written way after the fabled mans death. No eye witnesses to any of the events in Jesus's life. from 90 to 150 years after, People didnt live that long. Why do all the passages have jesus speaking in the third person? Writer: And jesus said to so and so.. HEARSAY at its best.
    Apparently you don't understand dates too well, nor do you understand what eyewitness testimony is.

    Assuming Jesus was born in 1 AD (which he wasn't, but it's close enough for this discussion) he lived to be approx 33 years old. If the eye witness accountants were of similar age, a writing in the year 70AD is only ~40 years later have you never met a 70 year old?

    The other books which were written later describe events and themes other than Jesus' life (letters to the Corinthian church for example).
    Acts of the apostles after Jesus died, as another.

    Furthermore, if an eyewitness says "so-n-so said" isn't that what eyewitness testimony is? Hearse is when someone says what they heard someone else say about some event.

    If you're going to discount what scripture says, you ought to at least read what it says to know what you're trying to discount. It is more than apparent from your post that you haven't.
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,779 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by scottm21166
    quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
    quote:Originally posted by scottm21166
    The bible was written by scribes hundreds of years after the inspiration was provided by "GOD". Before that it was passed by oral tradition one person to the next.

    If that is the tradition you hold, then most books of the NT must be spurious as most claim to be written by one of the Apostles or another. But let us be clear....it is only a tradition.



    Play the school game "I got a secret" and see how different the story is by the time it gets back to you.

    Unless God has an interest in preserving His word. But, then, other books and traditions must be in error, then, eh ?

    Many books of the Bible were eliminated at the counsil of Nicea as the church edited the inspired word of GOD (and before) so we will never have the complete story nor do we need it if we live by faith.


    That is a tautology, and a logical error. No books of the bible were removed at Nicea. The canon of scripture was recognized long before the council, and those which did not meet the canon were labeled as Apocryphal, or worse, heretical. But the council was only applying the canon, the measure of what inspired text was to be. They did not create it, as it is based upon logical precepts, such as non-contradiction, etc, they only recognized the principle and applied it.

    That means we are left to live by faith and by the guidence of the Holy Spirit until Christ's return.

    Only if you wish to debase scripture and apply another standard.
    I am so grateful that I need only believe in Christ as the risen savior and eternal life is assured. I will have plenty of time to learn the details.

    Like the Bereans ?


    I did make a mistake. I should have said "written down by scribes". the confluence of languages (Greek, latin and aramaic) were often mistranslated from those original documents as the scriptural canon itself was constructed.
    If I were trying to put an entire group of people under one idea. (as constantine was) I would include all the written materials that supported my belief (even if I prayed about it) and to exclude the written testimony that tended to dissagree with my position or that was open to interpretation.
    As someone else mentioned, many books, (texts) recently discovered tell a more complete story of the gospel.
    It always bothered me that the NT contains so little about the actual life and words of Christ himself.
    Amazingly, many of those texts come from the DSS written by the Hesseins and hidden away, safe from the cleansing fires of the counsil of Nicea who sought to destroy all texts pertaining to the faith that were not included in the canon.
    you obviously know alot more about this than I do so I speak only as a layperson confused by that dilema
    you're joking, right? Have you never even looked at a copy of the Bible before?
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
  • Mr. PerfectMr. Perfect Member, Moderator Posts: 63,779 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
    quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
    quote:Originally posted by cactuspete1
    According to what I have read the NT was written somewhere between 90 and 150 years after the fact, There, according to history, none of the writers were present at any of the events depicted in the bible and therefor it is all Hearsay. A Note: Hearsay will not stand up in court.
    Either your source was wrong, or your recollection of it is. All of the NT writers wrote eyewitness accounts. Matthew knew shorthand (as a requirement for being a tax collector) and was able to transcribe verbatim many of the speeches.
    [:D][:D][:D] omg you are delerious [:D][:D][:D] lmao

    NOTHING in the new testament was a firsthand account. their own stories say it was secondhand. "so-and-so says this is what happened..."

    did you even read the bible you are talking about?

    maybe you had it read to you. most medieval people, who had the bible read to them by clergy in church, thought Jesus wrote the bible. why don't you just say that. Jesus Wrote The Bible. all of it. the old testament too.

    where are the firsthand accounts of earthquakes, a solar eclipse and dead people rising from their graves and walking into town when Jesus was crucified? how did that entirely escape the notice of everybody else including chroniclers and historians?

    matt. 27:52
    tombs were opened, and many saints who had died were brought back to life.

    matt. 28:2
    Suddenly there was a powerful earthquake, because an angel of the Lord had come down from heaven, approached the stone, rolled it away, and was sitting on top of it.


    I have read it many times actually. What are you talking about? You're saying that because someone ELSE didn't write about it happening, it didn't happen? How many times have you read a book and said, boy I need to write the same thing! Well guess what four authors did essentially that!
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    And fiery auto crashes
    Some will die in hot pursuit
    While sifting through my ashes
    Some will fall in love with life
    And drink it from a fountain
    That is pouring like an avalanche
    Coming down the mountain
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