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quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by SLING BLADE
The question arrises then: Who will ever know for sure[?]
Why, that's easy.
Everybody.
Ding Ding Ding Ding! Eventually, all will be revealed and everybody will know who had the whole truth, who had partial truth, and who was flat out wrong.
You're right!
I think the day's October 21st, or something like that, right. Are you ready?
Do you know what you're going to wear? I'm thinking about dressing casually for the event, what about you?
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
Actually almost all of the Old Testament was written between 600 and 800 BC. (BCE makes no sense to me since it is a christ-less way of saying before Christ) Most of it is not historacally accurate and was written to glorify the the Temple period of Jerusalem and the Davidic dynasty.
One of the main problems with Biblical Archeology is that it started with archeologists saying, "the ancient writers of the Torah must have been historical figures writing about history, let's see if we can find the proof of that history." They should have said, "let's see what history reveals."
rumor and disinformation.
not quite.
The jews say that Yaweh revealed five books to Moses in the 13th century BC. these they call the Pentateuch, also known as the Torah. they were written in hebrew on leather.
with the dispersal of jews to all different countries, many of them had forgotten how to speak hebrew. so a number of jewish scholars got together and translated the Pentateuch into greek so they all could read it. greek was the common language in all of the civilized world. the process took from the 3d century to the 1st century BC.
that was called the Septuagint, or LXX. (a later Latin designation) there are various reasons why they call it the Septuagint. it was divided into 72 books, or there were 72 scholars, or it took them 72 days, or all of the above. (it should actually be called the LXXII)
which affirms just how notorious revisionists of history the jews were. the story also goes that
quote:In the 2nd Century BC, the head librarian of the Library at Alexandria (Demetrios of Phaleron) asked the King of Egypt (Ptolemy Philadelphus) to summon some number of Jews to transcribe the whole of their Jewish Law, then compiled in Hebrew, into Greek for the benefit of the library.
Supposedly Ptolemy entertained six scribes each from the twelve tribes of Israel, weeping for joy at their arrival and questioning them for a week (they answer everything most wisely of course) in trade for 100,000 Jewish "captives", thus ending the "Jewish captivity" started by the Babylonians centuries before. the 72 translators complete their task in 72 days and put a curse on anyone who alters the translation.
you can read that story here, written by a jew, and decide for yourself if you are having your chain yanked or not.
I'm more than familiar with the Septuagint, but to suggest that that was when the bible was the first time pen was put to paper (so to speak) to convey the message is a bit misleading.
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by Oso2142
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by SLING BLADE
The question arrises then: Who will ever know for sure[?]
Why, that's easy.
Everybody.
Ding Ding Ding Ding! Eventually, all will be revealed and everybody will know who had the whole truth, who had partial truth, and who was flat out wrong.
You're right!
I think the day's October 21st, or something like that, right. Are you ready?
Do you know what you're going to wear? I'm thinking about dressing casually for the event, what about you?
I think that some people here may want to wear shorts. I hear it is pretty warm where they're going. [:D]
Well, this has been fun, but I'm afraid I've gotten enough commentary from people who've obviously never read what they're critiquing.
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by Amish
The book of Genesis is the oldest text on the planet.
oh yes, 13th century BC is so old. not!
Oldest 10 Books Known To Man
1. Instructions of Shuruppak, Sumerian, 3000 BC
2. Epic of Etana, Akkadian, 2600 BC
3. Pyramid Texts, Egyptian, 2400 BC
4. Code of Urukagina, Legashian, 2370 BC
5. Palermo Stone, Egyptian, 2400 BC
6. The Wisdom of Ptah-Hotep, Egyptian, 2400-2600 BC
7. En-hedu-ana's Hymns, Sumerian, 2270 BC
8. The Epic of Gilgamesh, Sumerian, 2000 BC
9. The Code of Ur-Nammu, Sumerian, 2075 BC
10. The Coffin Texts, Egyptian, 2000 BC
where are the firsthand accounts of earthquakes, a solar eclipse and dead people rising from their graves and walking into town when Jesus was crucified? how did that entirely escape the notice of everybody else including chroniclers and historians?
matt. 27:52
tombs were opened, and many saints who had died were brought back to life.
matt. 28:2
Suddenly there was a powerful earthquake, because an angel of the Lord had come down from heaven, approached the stone, rolled it away, and was sitting on top of it.
There are 1st century historians who do record the earthquake and the out of season eclipse at the time of the crucifixion by the Roman Caesar Pontius Pilate at the earlier link. I'm not copying the entire quote here. If you are really interested in the Truth of the matter you will go read it.
The Romans were not Christians and did not record any of Jesus' miracles such as dead bodies coming out of the ground. Those are found in the Gospels. But the Romans did record the earthquake and surrounding seemingly natural events.
quote:christianity has everything in common with every Vegetation God there ever was.
The religious grab at straws to try to defend their position. A person to have witnessed jesus would have had to be extremely young and probably hand no knowledge as to who or if he existed to be able to write 70 years later when the life expxtancy was only around 50 years. your figures dont add up, If the person was 40 when they supposedly knew this jesus then lets see 70 years later he would be 110 years old. If he was 1 at the time of jesus death then he would be 70 years old when the start of the writing began. So I doubt they knew much.
There is no correlation between other religions and christianity? you got to be kidding.
Guess where the Vatican is built? Guess where the canniblistic ritual of eating the flesh and the blood came from? . And of cours the apologists will always say that the history of religions were made up and the devil did it to discredit Christianity, Yep he did that 4000 years before christianity was invented..he made up all the different pagan religions just to confuse all the world..[:D][:D]
There were many great "Healing" gods that were persecuted, executed and rose from the dead to rule from their own version of heaven. Nothing new in Christianity that wasnt there before. Just names and places have been changed.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Furthermore, if an eyewitness says "so-n-so said" isn't that what eyewitness testimony is? Hearse is when someone says what they heard someone else say about some event.
a) no, it's obviously not eyewitness.
b) the next thing you say is that it's heresay.
c) just a minute ago you were saying Matthew wrote down Jesus' words as he was speaking. in shorthand.
what is wrong with you, dude? how can you even take yourself seriously?
quote:Originally posted by Amish
There are 1st century historians who do record the earthquake and the out of season eclipse at the time of the crucifixion by the Roman Caesar Pontius Pilate at the earlier link. I'm not copying the entire quote here. If you are really interested in the Truth of the matter you will go read it.Such as? Show original sources.
quote:Originally posted by Amish
The Romans were not Christians and did not record any of Jesus' miracles such as dead bodies coming out of the ground. Those are found in the Gospels. But the Romans did record the earthquake and surrounding seemingly natural events.
and nobody recorded dead people rising from the grave and walking into town, because...?
quote:Originally posted by Amish
quote:christianity has everything in common with every Vegetation God there ever was.
Such as? Show original sources.
I'm not copying the entire quote here. If you are really interested in the Truth of the matter you will go read it.
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
quote:Originally posted by Amish
The book of Genesis is the oldest text on the planet.
oh yes, 13th century BC is so old. not!
Oldest 10 Books Known To Man
1. Instructions of Shuruppak, Sumerian, 3000 BC
2. Epic of Etana, Akkadian, 2600 BC
3. Pyramid Texts, Egyptian, 2400 BC
4. Code of Urukagina, Legashian, 2370 BC
5. Palermo Stone, Egyptian, 2400 BC
6. The Wisdom of Ptah-Hotep, Egyptian, 2400-2600 BC
7. En-hedu-ana's Hymns, Sumerian, 2270 BC
8. The Epic of Gilgamesh, Sumerian, 2000 BC
9. The Code of Ur-Nammu, Sumerian, 2075 BC
10. The Coffin Texts, Egyptian, 2000 BC
13th century BC is a baseless theory with discredited dating techniques. "The Rabi said" is not science. Indeed no such age ever existed.
The Gilgamesh tablet is an archaeological relic. That is not how textual criticism dates the original text which is dated with the sciences confirming the events and characters in the text, such as Babylon, the global flood, the events at Mt Sinai and Red Sea crossing.
If you cant tell me what the three main theories for the compilation of the book of Genesis are including the Wiseman Hypothesis (the most likely), then you cant very well attempt to tell us how old the book is.
The Wiseman Hypothesis asserts Moses, who lived at the time of the Red Sea Crossing (an archaeological discovered fact), compiled Genesis from tablets recorded by firsthand witnessed accounts predating the flood back to creation itself. There is no older text anywhere despite what blind secular science claims. They simply have no interest in the truth of the matter, driven by their marxist political agenda for a nwo without God.
Christianity borrowed its central myths and ceremonies from other ancient religions. The ancient world was rife with tales of virgin births, miracle-working saviors, tripartite gods, gods taking human form, gods arising from the dead, heavens and hells, and days of judgment. In addition to the myths, many of the ceremonies of ancient religions also match those of that syncretic latecomer, Christianity. To cite but one example (there are many others), consider Mithraism, a Persian religion predating Christianity by centuries. Mithra, the savior of the Mithraic religion and a god who took human form, was born of a virgin; he belonged to the holy trinity and was a link between heaven and Earth; and he ascended into heaven after his death. His followers believed in heaven and hell, looked forward to a day of judgment, and referred to Mithra as "the Light of the World." They also practiced baptism (for purification purposes) and ritual cannibalism-the eating of bread and the drinking of wine to symbolize the eating and drinking of the god's body and blood. Given all this, Mithra's birthday should come as no surprise: December 25th; this event was, of course, celebrated by Mithra's followers at midnight.
Christmas, Easter, borrowed from ancient religions.
The rulers at the time couldnt rule people with different beliefs so they forced them into the on new religion "Christianity" People were slaughtered because they would not convert, this went on for centuries. The incorperated pagen rituals into the new religion to placate the people and make it easier to convert them to their way of thinking.
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Furthermore, if an eyewitness says "so-n-so said" isn't that what eyewitness testimony is? Hearse is when someone says what they heard someone else say about some event.
a) no, it's obviously not eyewitness.
b) the next thing you say is that it's heresay.
c) just a minute ago you were saying Matthew wrote down Jesus' words as he was speaking. in shorthand.
what is wrong with you, dude? how can you even take yourself seriously?
if I testify in court, and give account of what someone told me, that is not hearse. If I say in court "John said 'take it easy'" That is not hearse.
If I say in court "John told me that Kathy said 'take it easy'" that IS hearse.
If I am transcribing the court events, I might write:
The examining attorney asked: "What did John say to you?"
Mr. Perfect said "John said take it easy."
The transcription of the testimony is not hearse.
Make sense?
That's what I was trying to convey.
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
why don't you believe the jews' estimation of 13th century BC when everything else they say is "holy" to you? is it a matter of convenience?
how can you possibly say no such age as the 13th century BC existed? where did those other books come from, as old as 30th century BC? or relics of the Egyptians, who were there since 5000 BC? or artifacts of the Chinese, who were there since 4700 BC, or the Indians, who were there almost as long? why don't you tell them they (and none of their buildings) didn't exist because, ah, your holy book says so.
or mastodon bones, or caveman tools, or dinosaur bones, or geological dating...
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
quote:Originally posted by Amish
There are 1st century historians who do record the earthquake and the out of season eclipse at the time of the crucifixion by the Roman Caesar Pontius Pilate at the earlier link. I'm not copying the entire quote here. If you are really interested in the Truth of the matter you will go read it. Since the Roman historians (with no motive to to deceive) were there their word is final on the matter.
Such as? Show original sources.
gladly
.
.
CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.) Tacitus was a 1st and 2nd century Roman historian who lived through the reigns of over half a dozen Roman emperors. Considered one of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Tacitus verifies the Biblical account of Jesus' execution at the hands of Pontius Pilate who governed Judea from 26-36 A.D. during the reign of Tiberius.
"Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also." Annals XV, 44 http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0078&layout=&loc=15.44
What this passage reveals and how it confirms the Biblical account:
-Jesus did exist
-Jesus was the founder of Christianity
-Jesus was put to death by Pilate
-Christianity originated in Judea (With Jesus)
-Christianity later spread to Rome (Through the Apostles and Evangelists)
Because of his position as a professional historian and not as a commentator Tacitus referenced government records over Christian testimony. There is not a surviving copy of Tacitus' Annals that does not contain this passage. There is no verifiable evidence of tampering of any kind in this passage. It simply provides evidence of Jesus' existence (a topic not debated at this point in history) and not his divinity.
GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.) Suetonius was a prominent Roman historian who recorded the lives of the Roman Caesars and the historical events surrounding their reigns. He served as a court official under Hadrian and as an annalist for the Imperial House. Suetonius records the expulsion of the Christian Jews from Rome (mentioned in Acts 18:2) and confirms the Christian faith being founded by Christ.
THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.) Although his works exist only in fragments, Julius Africanus debates Thallus' explanation of the midday darkness which occurred during the Passover of Jesus' crucifixion. Thallus tries to dismiss the darkness as a natural occurrence (a solar eclipse) but Africanus argues (and any astronomer can confirm) a solar eclipse cannot physically occur during a full moon due to the alignment of the planets. Phlegon of Tralles, a 2nd century secular historian, also mentions the darkness and tries to dismiss it as a solar eclipse. He also states the event occurred during the time of Tiberius Caesar.
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness. The rocks were rent by an earthquake and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover. But an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time... Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth-manifestly that one of which we speak." Chronography XVIII, 47 http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-06/anf06-50.htm#P2367_668991
PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D) Pliny the Younger admits to torturing and executing Christians who refused to deny Christ. Those who denied the charges were spared and ordered to exalt the Roman gods and curse the name of Christ. Pliny addresses his concerns to Emperor Trajan that too many citizens were being killed for their refusal to deny their faith.
"I asked them directly if they were Christians...those who persisted, I ordered away... Those who denied they were or ever had been Christians...worshiped both your image and the images of the gods and cursed Christ. They used to gather on a stated day before dawn and sing to Christ as if he were a god... All the more I believed it necessary to find out what was the truth from two servant maids, which were called deaconesses, by means of torture. Nothing more did I find than a disgusting, fanatical superstition. Therefore I stopped the examination, and hastened to consult you...on account of the number of people endangered. For many of all ages, all classes, and both sexes already are brought into danger..." Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan http://www.tyrannus.com/pliny_let.html
Though Pliny states some of the accused denied the charges, a recurring theme in the correspondence between Pliny and Trajan is the willingness of the true believer to die for Christ. This would hardly be reasonable if they knew He never existed!
Pliny states the Christians worshiped Christ as if he were a god. This indicates one who would not normally be considered a god, such as a human who was exalted to divine status. Also, the early Christians would have been in the position to know if Jesus was a historical figure or not.
continues with numerous other non biblical accounts of Jesus and early Christians..
www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html
quote:Originally posted by scrumpyjack
quote:The transcription of the testimony is not hearse.
Make sense?
No, it does not because the word is spelled, "h e a r s a y". A hearse transports dead people. Damn, Perfect, you're slipping.
[B)][:)]
Some will die in hot pursuit
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Furthermore, if an eyewitness says "so-n-so said" isn't that what eyewitness testimony is? Hearse is when someone says what they heard someone else say about some event.
a) no, it's obviously not eyewitness.
b) the next thing you say is that it's heresay.
c) just a minute ago you were saying Matthew wrote down Jesus' words as he was speaking. in shorthand.
what is wrong with you, dude? how can you even take yourself seriously?
if I testify in court, and give account of what someone told me, that is not hearse. If I say in court "John said 'take it easy'" That is not hearse.
If I say in court "John told me that Kathy said 'take it easy'" that IS hearse.
If I am transcribing the court events, I might write:
The examining attorney asked: "What did John say to you?"
Mr. Perfect said "John said take it easy."
The transcription of the testimony is not hearse.
Make sense?
That's what I was trying to convey.
yep, you're right. I was thinking you meant so-n-so said "so-n-so said..."
quote:Originally posted by cactuspete1
Christianity borrowed its central myths and ceremonies from other ancient religions. The ancient world was rife with tales of virgin births, miracle-working saviors, tripartite gods, gods taking human form, gods arising from the dead, heavens and hells, and days of judgment.
Baseless poppycock often repeated with no original sources. There were no virgin birth gods BC.
And numerous other unproven claims dispelled. (please confine to the Bible and Jesus not your Vatican gnostic religion.)
If you really read the bible there is a 25 year span that this Jesus could have been born. Now that is what I call really reliable information for someone that is portrayed as being all that important.
The writers can estimate he was 33 years at his crucifixion but have no idea as to actual years or day or month, in one writing it is said that he had not yet reached 50 years (could that mean he was a bit older?) as there were no actual eye witnesses to these events among the writers of the bible. Again Stories taken from pagan gods and their existance.
quote:Originally posted by Amish
quote:Originally posted by HappyNanoq
Bible written by man
Many papers were written a long time after.
Thus... faith is just heresay.
Of course it was written by man. Who would you think wrote it? God used man to write many books that make up the Bible. The Bible itself is confirmed repeatedly with a long HISTORY and SCIENCE.
Well you are offcourse free to twist my words as you please - but that's not what I wrote.
I wrote that bible was written by man - and the program was written by man.
One was written to validate or search something else that was written by man.
As I wrote that many papers weren't written at the time they happened, how can we be absolutely SURE that it is exactly THAT way it happened.?
The written text is only interpretation - not "recording".
quote:Originally posted by Amish
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
Such as? Show original sources.
gladly
.
.
CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.)
"Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also."
Tacitus got his information about Christ from the Christians, in order to explain them. the rest of what he wrote were actual current events, but the part about christ was heresay he got from the christians themselves. so where are the records of "today, Pontius Pilate did this... to this person..."? where has that ever been said?
GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.)
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from Rome."
says nothing about whether the jews were reacting to an actual person, or, propaganda/rhetopric/heresay about a fictitious Jesus.
THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.)
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness. The rocks were rent by an earthquake and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover. But an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time... Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth-manifestly that one of which we speak."
whatever. where are the walking dead people?
PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D)
"I asked them directly if they were Christians...those who persisted, I ordered away... Those who denied they were or ever had been Christians...worshiped both your image and the images of the gods and cursed Christ. They used to gather on a stated day before dawn and sing to Christ as if he were a god... All the more I believed it necessary to find out what was the truth from two servant maids, which were called deaconesses, by means of torture. Nothing more did I find than a disgusting, fanatical superstition. Therefore I stopped the examination, and hastened to consult you...on account of the number of people endangered. For many of all ages, all classes, and both sexes already are brought into danger..."
says nothing about whether the christians were reacting to an actual person, or, propaganda/rhetopric/heresay about a fictitious Jesus.
these quotes do not prove what you are saying. they are indeterminate at best. you need better proof.
quote:Originally posted by Charles Johnson
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
Sorry Mr. Perfect, your faith is getting in your way. The Bible is a great book, but very poor history.
Please provide an example.
I would be interested.
That is a very broad statement. I'd be interested in an example as well.
Other than the Torah, the old testament, there is no historical evidence that the exodus from Egypt ever occured. Not a single document or stone corroborates that story.
Pontis Pilot is mentioned in one Roman document, so we know he lived. He was in a very diffent place with a different title in the Roman government, and there is no corroboration that he was ever in Isreal.
At the time Joshua was supposed to have destroyed Jericho, Jericho was a ruin.
quote:From Mithraism Christ takes the symbolic keys of heaven and hell and assumes the function of the virgin-born Saoshyant, the destroyer of the Evil One. Like Mithra, Merodach, and the Egyptian Khousu, he is the Mediator; like Khousu, Horus and Merodach, he is one of a trinity, like Horus he is grouped with a Divine Mother; like Khousu he is joined to the Logos; and like Merodach he is associated with the Holy Spirit, one of whose symbols is fire."
It has also been validated that the interpolations within the writing of Josephus and Pliney they younger were added by christian apologists later in an attempt to prove the existance of the fabled christ.The mention of Christ in either of their writings was added later by someone else.
There is no Historocity of this Jesus ever existing. Only in Stories.
1.1. No Primary Source (First-Person) Accounts of Jesus Exist
No historians of the time mention Jesus. Suetonius (65-135) does not. Pliny the Younger only mentions Christians (Paulists) with no comment of Jesus himself. Tacitus mentions a Jesus, but it is likely that after a century of Christian preaching Tacitus was just reacting to these rumours, or probably talking about one of the many other Messiah's of the time. Josephus, a methodical, accurate and dedicated historian of the time mentions John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate and many aspects of Jewish life but does not mention Jesus. (The Testimonium Flavianum has been shown to be a third century Christian fraud). He once mentions a Jesus, but gives no information other than that he is a brother of a James. Jesus was not an unusual name, either. Justus, another Jewish historian who lived in Tiberias (near Kapernaum, a place Jesus frequented) did not mention Jesus nor any of his miracles. It is only in the evidence of later writers, writing about earlier times, that we find a Jesus. What is more surprising (Jesus could simply have been unknown to local historians) is that academics note that the gospels themselves do not allude to first-hand historical sources, either!
"The four Gospels that eventually made it into the New Testament, for example, are all anonymous, written in the third person about Jesus and his companions. None of them contains a first-person narrative ("One day, when Jesus and I went into Capernaum..."), or claims to be written by an eyewitness or companion of an eyewitness. Why then do we call them Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Because sometime in the second century, when proto-orthodox Christians recognized the need for apostolic authorities, they attributed these books to apostles (Matthew and John) and close companions of apostles (Mark, the secretary of Peter; and Luke, the travelling companion of Paul). Most scholars today have abandoned these identifications, and recognize that the books were written by otherwise unknown but relatively well-educated Greek-speaking (and writing) Christians during the second half of the first century."
There is No Evidence for the Story of the Birth of Jesus
"Mostly derived from pagan myths, Jesus' birth stories are very dubious, and it very likely that all such beliefs were written retrospectively by the Roman gospel writers, or were assumed from the outset. There is no evidence or reason to believe that they actually occurred. Events such as King Herod's killing of every male child simply could not have gone unnoticed, these pagan myths were however assumed of all god-man saviours. Modern Christmas is a combination of pagan and ancient practices. Its eclectic nature makes it a multicultural event suitable for appropriation by nearly anyone, including staunch secularists. Jesus' existence remains a mystery, we cannot validate even the simplest facts about his birth, and this fact has led some scholars to cast doubt on Jesus' entire existence."
There is No Evidence for the Story of the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus
"The crucifixion story of Jesus Christ is mythical, based on pagan religions, and makes no sense:
There is a complete absence of evidence for the events described - no authors mention the phenomenal events that supposedly occurred at the time of Jesus' resurrection, and, there are no records of Jesus being crucified in the first place. This is despite there being multiple historians of the time who kept extensive records of events in that era, especially of unusual events and the misdeeds of rulers. The only records we have are those written by Christians themselves, the Gospels. And within each of those gospels nearly all details of the crucifixion and resurrection are different. Very important details, such as Jesus' last words, are so different that it appears they are simply being made up by the authors. The earliest Christians did not know simple details such as where Jesus was buried.
Most the details of Jesus' death and rebirth are similar to the existing myths surrounding god-men in that era. The similarities to the Christs of other pagan religions are shockingly detailed, so much so that early Church fathers had to defend themselves against pagan critics who said that the stories of Jesus were simply pagan stories with new names.
God-Man myths were very popular and pre-dated the God-Man of Jesus by thousands of years. They all shared a common format which (or "vegetation myths") is that the Son of God has 12 disciples, and is betrayed and killed by a traitor. Popular myths such as the virgin birth, miracles, curing the blind and ill are also familiar and common aspects of these myths. As such, such events were assumed to be true of the historical Jesus. These myths became interwoven amongst the stories of someone who might have been real. Many Jewish sayings became attributed to this character, and sayings of John the Baptist too. Stories about the disciples were assumed to be true and not simply symbolic stories as the original gnostic Christians believed. Once people wrote pseudipigraphically under the names of the disciples people accepted them as true too. The rest is history, but initially is based on mistaken pseudo-historical accounts.
Jesus and Other God-Men are Personifications of the Sun
"The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula (the "Mythos," as mentioned above) revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.
For instance, many of the world's crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that "God's sun" had "died" for three days and was "born again" on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the "sun of God's" birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the "sun of God":
The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
The sun is the "Light of the World."
The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
The sun "walks on water."
The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30?; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
"
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
1) Other than the Torah, the old testament, there is no historical evidence that the exodus from Egypt ever occured. Not a single document or stone corroborates that story.
2) Pontis Pilot is mentioned in one Roman document, so we know he lived. He was in a very diffent place with a different title in the Roman government, and there is no corroboration that he was ever in Isreal.
3) At the time Joshua was supposed to have destroyed Jericho, Jericho was a ruin.
1. The Red Sea crossing area has been found and confirmed by more than one research team. One even sent a mini sub to the bottom and got video of the bones and chariot wheels of the remains of the pharaoh's army. The pharaoh himself is missing. The mummy said to be his has been studied and found not to match his age height, or sex. The rest of the exodus site is at Mt Sinai also found complete with the split rock Moses struck and the lake it produced. (water has dried up)
The Search for the Real Mount Sinai
43 min (video)
www.archive.org/details/The_Search_for_the_Real_Mt_Sinai
Shows the exodus route including Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia
illustrated http://pinkoski.com/Articles/Real-Mt.-Sinai.html
2. This was already posted. Indeed Pilate is recorded by Roman historians crucifying Jesus.
3. You will find you are equally mistaken about Jericho. Secular science often confirms the biblical accounts but sometimes it takes them a while to catch up. I've seen this on video before but dont have that link in front of me right now. You may check archive.org
What about this bit of information, Nazareth? didnt exist.
Nazareth, The City That Never Was
The evidence for a 1st century town of Nazareth does not exist - not literary, not archaeologically, and not historically.
Biblical scholars and clergy alike have always had difficulty accepting the possibility that at the time of Jesus there was no city called "Nazareth." They have always resisted this possibility and sometimes, quite vigorously.
The Encyclopaedia Biblica, a work written by theologians, and perhaps the greatest biblical reference work in the English language, says: "We cannot venture to assert positively that there was a city of Nazareth in Jesus' time."
Nazareth is not mentioned in any historical records or biblical texts of the time and receives no mention by any contemporary historian. Nazareth is not mentioned in the Old Testament, the Talmud (the Jewish law code), nor in the Apocrypha and it does not appear in any early rabbinic literature.
Nazareth was not included in the list of settlements of the tribes of Zebulon (Joshua 19:10-16) which mentions twelve towns and six villages, and Nazareth is not included among the 45 cities of Galilee that were mentioned by Josephus (37AD-100AD), a widely traveled historian who never missed anything and who voluminously describes the region. The name is also missing from the 63 towns of Galilee mentioned in the Talmud.
The first reference to Nazareth is in the New Testament where it can be found 29 different times. However, there is still cause for speculation as to whether or not the city existed at the time of Jesus. It is mentioned only in the Gospels and Acts. These books do refer to Nazareth, but they did not originate at this time, they are later writings. The earlier writings of the NT (Paul etc) mention Jesus 221 times - but never mention Nazareth.
So how can the fabled Jesus be from Nasareth if it didnt exist for 100 years of more after his death?
It is evident that many things were invented in order to make it look like this character actually existed. However he no more existed than Osiris, Odin, Thor or Neptune.
1. chariot wheels at the bottom of the red sea do not prove some kind of exodus. it proves some chariots made their way to the bottom of a sea. you say it's proof the entire egyptian army was drowned; there were only 3 wheels found. all kinds of things fall off of boats. and how can the biblical story of the entire egyptian army being drowned be true, when you know the egyptians would have lost everything when their enemies found them without an army.
2. there were no roman historians that recorded a Pilate crucifying a Jesus. and how believable is the story that goes
"When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands and said, "I am innocent of the blood of this Just person. You see to it." And all the people answered and said, "His blood be upon us and on our children." (Matthew 27:24-25)
yeah right the jews said that. does this not sound like some kind of propaganda? Yes.
3. science still hasn't caught up to the bible where it says the earth is flat, square and supported by pillars. or that lions used to eat grass. or that the earth and entire universe are only a few thousand years old. probably never will.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
You gentlemen may attempt to establish whatever you wish by whatever means, but so far you have done nothing to disprove scripture.
Claims that there is no eyewitness testimony is baseless, as all four synoptic writers were contemporaries with Jesus. And if they were contemporaries, that means their writing also took place within their lifetimes, which means that the four gospels were written by, being generous, 100 AD.
It is immaterial whether anybody else wrote what they wrote, or not. That does not change the value of their testimony. Indeed, it makes it only the more valuable.
Claims that the historicity of scripture is faulty are baseless, as well, unless you are keeping something to yourself. Bring it out, let us see and hear it !
Claims that Christianity is simply a re-iteration of pagan faiths are baseless as well, since the fundamental claim of the gospel is that the Creator God, the "I Am", the ground of all being, chose to plan from before creation to redeem all men who would be saved, through bearing their guilt and punishment on a cross, and subsequent resurrection.
Making all human efforts at perfection, or "good", worthless and reconciling all of a fallen creation to Himself at a future and final judgement, heading into eternity.
There ain't nothing like it, gents, not anywhere, and all others are posers and pale shadows of the ultimate truth; coincidental, if you will, at most, but hardly evidence of the grand claims you bring before us while claiming that you hold the actual absolute truths of the matter.
Piffle, I say.
You can nourish an appreciation of any similarity between any of the assorted cults, mix, match and combine to your heart's content, whisper to yourself in the night, and share with others of like beliefs the baseless claims of desperate and fallen men, but that just will never make it so.
And yet, despite all that, you may still come and see.
It is a good day to die !
oh yes, let those who wish to ignore the truth, find the truth.
All this business about Jesus not existing no scholar atheist or otherwise will agree with. They all agree a man named Jesus was crucified by Pilate as the historians of the day record. The skeptics only do not believe in the miraculous things. Only recently have some books been written by shady individuals claiming Jesus never existed using unsourced claims.
Comments
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by SLING BLADE
The question arrises then: Who will ever know for sure[?]
Why, that's easy.
Everybody.
Ding Ding Ding Ding! Eventually, all will be revealed and everybody will know who had the whole truth, who had partial truth, and who was flat out wrong.
You're right!
I think the day's October 21st, or something like that, right. Are you ready?
Do you know what you're going to wear? I'm thinking about dressing casually for the event, what about you?
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
Actually almost all of the Old Testament was written between 600 and 800 BC. (BCE makes no sense to me since it is a christ-less way of saying before Christ) Most of it is not historacally accurate and was written to glorify the the Temple period of Jerusalem and the Davidic dynasty.
One of the main problems with Biblical Archeology is that it started with archeologists saying, "the ancient writers of the Torah must have been historical figures writing about history, let's see if we can find the proof of that history." They should have said, "let's see what history reveals."
rumor and disinformation.
not quite.
The jews say that Yaweh revealed five books to Moses in the 13th century BC. these they call the Pentateuch, also known as the Torah. they were written in hebrew on leather.
with the dispersal of jews to all different countries, many of them had forgotten how to speak hebrew. so a number of jewish scholars got together and translated the Pentateuch into greek so they all could read it. greek was the common language in all of the civilized world. the process took from the 3d century to the 1st century BC.
that was called the Septuagint, or LXX. (a later Latin designation) there are various reasons why they call it the Septuagint. it was divided into 72 books, or there were 72 scholars, or it took them 72 days, or all of the above. (it should actually be called the LXXII)
which affirms just how notorious revisionists of history the jews were. the story also goes that
quote:In the 2nd Century BC, the head librarian of the Library at Alexandria (Demetrios of Phaleron) asked the King of Egypt (Ptolemy Philadelphus) to summon some number of Jews to transcribe the whole of their Jewish Law, then compiled in Hebrew, into Greek for the benefit of the library.
Supposedly Ptolemy entertained six scribes each from the twelve tribes of Israel, weeping for joy at their arrival and questioning them for a week (they answer everything most wisely of course) in trade for 100,000 Jewish "captives", thus ending the "Jewish captivity" started by the Babylonians centuries before. the 72 translators complete their task in 72 days and put a curse on anyone who alters the translation.
you can read that story here, written by a jew, and decide for yourself if you are having your chain yanked or not.
http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/aristeas.htm
I'm more than familiar with the Septuagint, but to suggest that that was when the bible was the first time pen was put to paper (so to speak) to convey the message is a bit misleading.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by calrugerfan
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by SLING BLADE
The question arrises then: Who will ever know for sure[?]
Why, that's easy.
Everybody.
Ding Ding Ding Ding! Eventually, all will be revealed and everybody will know who had the whole truth, who had partial truth, and who was flat out wrong.
You're right!
I think the day's October 21st, or something like that, right. Are you ready?
Do you know what you're going to wear? I'm thinking about dressing casually for the event, what about you?
I think that some people here may want to wear shorts. I hear it is pretty warm where they're going. [:D]
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
The book of Genesis is the oldest text on the planet.
oh yes, 13th century BC is so old. not!
Oldest 10 Books Known To Man
1. Instructions of Shuruppak, Sumerian, 3000 BC
2. Epic of Etana, Akkadian, 2600 BC
3. Pyramid Texts, Egyptian, 2400 BC
4. Code of Urukagina, Legashian, 2370 BC
5. Palermo Stone, Egyptian, 2400 BC
6. The Wisdom of Ptah-Hotep, Egyptian, 2400-2600 BC
7. En-hedu-ana's Hymns, Sumerian, 2270 BC
8. The Epic of Gilgamesh, Sumerian, 2000 BC
9. The Code of Ur-Nammu, Sumerian, 2075 BC
10. The Coffin Texts, Egyptian, 2000 BC
where are the firsthand accounts of earthquakes, a solar eclipse and dead people rising from their graves and walking into town when Jesus was crucified? how did that entirely escape the notice of everybody else including chroniclers and historians?
matt. 27:52
tombs were opened, and many saints who had died were brought back to life.
matt. 28:2
Suddenly there was a powerful earthquake, because an angel of the Lord had come down from heaven, approached the stone, rolled it away, and was sitting on top of it.
There are 1st century historians who do record the earthquake and the out of season eclipse at the time of the crucifixion by the Roman Caesar Pontius Pilate at the earlier link. I'm not copying the entire quote here. If you are really interested in the Truth of the matter you will go read it.
The Romans were not Christians and did not record any of Jesus' miracles such as dead bodies coming out of the ground. Those are found in the Gospels. But the Romans did record the earthquake and surrounding seemingly natural events.
quote:christianity has everything in common with every Vegetation God there ever was.
Such as? Show original sources.
There is no correlation between other religions and christianity? you got to be kidding.
Guess where the Vatican is built? Guess where the canniblistic ritual of eating the flesh and the blood came from? . And of cours the apologists will always say that the history of religions were made up and the devil did it to discredit Christianity, Yep he did that 4000 years before christianity was invented..he made up all the different pagan religions just to confuse all the world..[:D][:D]
There were many great "Healing" gods that were persecuted, executed and rose from the dead to rule from their own version of heaven. Nothing new in Christianity that wasnt there before. Just names and places have been changed.
Furthermore, if an eyewitness says "so-n-so said" isn't that what eyewitness testimony is? Hearse is when someone says what they heard someone else say about some event.
a) no, it's obviously not eyewitness.
b) the next thing you say is that it's heresay.
c) just a minute ago you were saying Matthew wrote down Jesus' words as he was speaking. in shorthand.
what is wrong with you, dude? how can you even take yourself seriously?
There are 1st century historians who do record the earthquake and the out of season eclipse at the time of the crucifixion by the Roman Caesar Pontius Pilate at the earlier link. I'm not copying the entire quote here. If you are really interested in the Truth of the matter you will go read it.Such as? Show original sources.
quote:Originally posted by Amish
The Romans were not Christians and did not record any of Jesus' miracles such as dead bodies coming out of the ground. Those are found in the Gospels. But the Romans did record the earthquake and surrounding seemingly natural events.
and nobody recorded dead people rising from the grave and walking into town, because...?
quote:Originally posted by Amish
quote:christianity has everything in common with every Vegetation God there ever was.
Such as? Show original sources.
I'm not copying the entire quote here. If you are really interested in the Truth of the matter you will go read it.
quote:Originally posted by Amish
The book of Genesis is the oldest text on the planet.
oh yes, 13th century BC is so old. not!
Oldest 10 Books Known To Man
1. Instructions of Shuruppak, Sumerian, 3000 BC
2. Epic of Etana, Akkadian, 2600 BC
3. Pyramid Texts, Egyptian, 2400 BC
4. Code of Urukagina, Legashian, 2370 BC
5. Palermo Stone, Egyptian, 2400 BC
6. The Wisdom of Ptah-Hotep, Egyptian, 2400-2600 BC
7. En-hedu-ana's Hymns, Sumerian, 2270 BC
8. The Epic of Gilgamesh, Sumerian, 2000 BC
9. The Code of Ur-Nammu, Sumerian, 2075 BC
10. The Coffin Texts, Egyptian, 2000 BC
13th century BC is a baseless theory with discredited dating techniques. "The Rabi said" is not science. Indeed no such age ever existed.
The Gilgamesh tablet is an archaeological relic. That is not how textual criticism dates the original text which is dated with the sciences confirming the events and characters in the text, such as Babylon, the global flood, the events at Mt Sinai and Red Sea crossing.
If you cant tell me what the three main theories for the compilation of the book of Genesis are including the Wiseman Hypothesis (the most likely), then you cant very well attempt to tell us how old the book is.
The Wiseman Hypothesis asserts Moses, who lived at the time of the Red Sea Crossing (an archaeological discovered fact), compiled Genesis from tablets recorded by firsthand witnessed accounts predating the flood back to creation itself. There is no older text anywhere despite what blind secular science claims. They simply have no interest in the truth of the matter, driven by their marxist political agenda for a nwo without God.
Christmas, Easter, borrowed from ancient religions.
The rulers at the time couldnt rule people with different beliefs so they forced them into the on new religion "Christianity" People were slaughtered because they would not convert, this went on for centuries. The incorperated pagen rituals into the new religion to placate the people and make it easier to convert them to their way of thinking.
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Furthermore, if an eyewitness says "so-n-so said" isn't that what eyewitness testimony is? Hearse is when someone says what they heard someone else say about some event.
a) no, it's obviously not eyewitness.
b) the next thing you say is that it's heresay.
c) just a minute ago you were saying Matthew wrote down Jesus' words as he was speaking. in shorthand.
what is wrong with you, dude? how can you even take yourself seriously?
if I testify in court, and give account of what someone told me, that is not hearse. If I say in court "John said 'take it easy'" That is not hearse.
If I say in court "John told me that Kathy said 'take it easy'" that IS hearse.
If I am transcribing the court events, I might write:
The examining attorney asked: "What did John say to you?"
Mr. Perfect said "John said take it easy."
The transcription of the testimony is not hearse.
Make sense?
That's what I was trying to convey.
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
how can you possibly say no such age as the 13th century BC existed? where did those other books come from, as old as 30th century BC? or relics of the Egyptians, who were there since 5000 BC? or artifacts of the Chinese, who were there since 4700 BC, or the Indians, who were there almost as long? why don't you tell them they (and none of their buildings) didn't exist because, ah, your holy book says so.
or mastodon bones, or caveman tools, or dinosaur bones, or geological dating...
Make sense?
No, it does not because the word is spelled, "h e a r s a y". A hearse transports dead people. Damn, Perfect, you're slipping.
And the reason this thread isn't locked yet????
because Allah wills it? [:o)]
quote:Originally posted by Amish
There are 1st century historians who do record the earthquake and the out of season eclipse at the time of the crucifixion by the Roman Caesar Pontius Pilate at the earlier link. I'm not copying the entire quote here. If you are really interested in the Truth of the matter you will go read it. Since the Roman historians (with no motive to to deceive) were there their word is final on the matter.
Such as? Show original sources.
gladly
.
.
CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.) Tacitus was a 1st and 2nd century Roman historian who lived through the reigns of over half a dozen Roman emperors. Considered one of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Tacitus verifies the Biblical account of Jesus' execution at the hands of Pontius Pilate who governed Judea from 26-36 A.D. during the reign of Tiberius.
"Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also." Annals XV, 44
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0078&layout=&loc=15.44
What this passage reveals and how it confirms the Biblical account:
-Jesus did exist
-Jesus was the founder of Christianity
-Jesus was put to death by Pilate
-Christianity originated in Judea (With Jesus)
-Christianity later spread to Rome (Through the Apostles and Evangelists)
Because of his position as a professional historian and not as a commentator Tacitus referenced government records over Christian testimony. There is not a surviving copy of Tacitus' Annals that does not contain this passage. There is no verifiable evidence of tampering of any kind in this passage. It simply provides evidence of Jesus' existence (a topic not debated at this point in history) and not his divinity.
GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.) Suetonius was a prominent Roman historian who recorded the lives of the Roman Caesars and the historical events surrounding their reigns. He served as a court official under Hadrian and as an annalist for the Imperial House. Suetonius records the expulsion of the Christian Jews from Rome (mentioned in Acts 18:2) and confirms the Christian faith being founded by Christ.
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius 25.4
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/suet-claudius-rolfe.html
THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.) Although his works exist only in fragments, Julius Africanus debates Thallus' explanation of the midday darkness which occurred during the Passover of Jesus' crucifixion. Thallus tries to dismiss the darkness as a natural occurrence (a solar eclipse) but Africanus argues (and any astronomer can confirm) a solar eclipse cannot physically occur during a full moon due to the alignment of the planets. Phlegon of Tralles, a 2nd century secular historian, also mentions the darkness and tries to dismiss it as a solar eclipse. He also states the event occurred during the time of Tiberius Caesar.
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness. The rocks were rent by an earthquake and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover. But an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time... Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth-manifestly that one of which we speak." Chronography XVIII, 47
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-06/anf06-50.htm#P2367_668991
PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D) Pliny the Younger admits to torturing and executing Christians who refused to deny Christ. Those who denied the charges were spared and ordered to exalt the Roman gods and curse the name of Christ. Pliny addresses his concerns to Emperor Trajan that too many citizens were being killed for their refusal to deny their faith.
"I asked them directly if they were Christians...those who persisted, I ordered away... Those who denied they were or ever had been Christians...worshiped both your image and the images of the gods and cursed Christ. They used to gather on a stated day before dawn and sing to Christ as if he were a god... All the more I believed it necessary to find out what was the truth from two servant maids, which were called deaconesses, by means of torture. Nothing more did I find than a disgusting, fanatical superstition. Therefore I stopped the examination, and hastened to consult you...on account of the number of people endangered. For many of all ages, all classes, and both sexes already are brought into danger..." Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan
http://www.tyrannus.com/pliny_let.html
Though Pliny states some of the accused denied the charges, a recurring theme in the correspondence between Pliny and Trajan is the willingness of the true believer to die for Christ. This would hardly be reasonable if they knew He never existed!
Pliny states the Christians worshiped Christ as if he were a god. This indicates one who would not normally be considered a god, such as a human who was exalted to divine status. Also, the early Christians would have been in the position to know if Jesus was a historical figure or not.
continues with numerous other non biblical accounts of Jesus and early Christians..
www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html
quote:The transcription of the testimony is not hearse.
Make sense?
No, it does not because the word is spelled, "h e a r s a y". A hearse transports dead people. Damn, Perfect, you're slipping.
[B)][:)]
And fiery auto crashes
Some will die in hot pursuit
While sifting through my ashes
Some will fall in love with life
And drink it from a fountain
That is pouring like an avalanche
Coming down the mountain
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
Furthermore, if an eyewitness says "so-n-so said" isn't that what eyewitness testimony is? Hearse is when someone says what they heard someone else say about some event.
a) no, it's obviously not eyewitness.
b) the next thing you say is that it's heresay.
c) just a minute ago you were saying Matthew wrote down Jesus' words as he was speaking. in shorthand.
what is wrong with you, dude? how can you even take yourself seriously?
if I testify in court, and give account of what someone told me, that is not hearse. If I say in court "John said 'take it easy'" That is not hearse.
If I say in court "John told me that Kathy said 'take it easy'" that IS hearse.
If I am transcribing the court events, I might write:
The examining attorney asked: "What did John say to you?"
Mr. Perfect said "John said take it easy."
The transcription of the testimony is not hearse.
Make sense?
That's what I was trying to convey.
yep, you're right. I was thinking you meant so-n-so said "so-n-so said..."
Christianity borrowed its central myths and ceremonies from other ancient religions. The ancient world was rife with tales of virgin births, miracle-working saviors, tripartite gods, gods taking human form, gods arising from the dead, heavens and hells, and days of judgment.
Baseless poppycock often repeated with no original sources. There were no virgin birth gods BC.
And numerous other unproven claims dispelled. (please confine to the Bible and Jesus not your Vatican gnostic religion.)
.
.
Jesus vs. Adad (aka Hadad) - Sumerian
Jesus vs. Adonis - Greek
Jesus vs. Aeneas - Greek, Roman
Jesus vs. Aesculapius - Greek, Roman
Jesus vs. Apollo - Greek
Jesus vs. Apollonius - Greek
Jesus vs. Artemes - Greek
Jesus vs. Attis (aka Atys) - Asian, Greek
Jesus vs. Baal - Semetic, Syrian, Persian
Jesus vs. Bacab - Mayan
Jesus vs. Balder - Norse
Jesus vs. Bali - Indian
Jesus vs. Beddru (aka Beddin) - Japanese
Jesus vs. Bel Merodach (aka Marduk) - Mesopotamian
Jesus vs. Bremrillah (aka Bremrillahm) - Druid
Jesus vs. Buddha - Indian
Jesus vs. Cadmus - Greek
Jesus vs. Caesar - Roman
Jesus vs. Chu Chulainn (aka Cuchulain) - Irish
Jesus vs. Crite - Chaldean
Jesus vs. Dahzdbog - Russian
Jesus vs. Deva Tat - Siamese
Jesus vs. Dionysus (aka Bacchus) - Greek, Roman
Jesus vs. Divine Teacher of Plato - Greek
Jesus vs. Elvis - American (humor)
Jesus vs. Fohi (aka Fu-Xi, Fu-Hsi) - Chinese
Jesus vs. Frey (aka Freyr, Fricco) - Norse
Jesus vs. Gentaut - Mexican
Jesus vs. Hercules (aka Alcides, Heracles) - Greek, Roman
Jesus vs. Hermes - Greek
Jesus vs. Hesus - Celtic
Jesus vs. Hil and Feta - Mandaite
Jesus vs. Holy One of Xaca - Chinese, Indian
Jesus vs. Horus - Egyptian
Jesus vs. Hyacinthus - Greek
Jesus vs. Iasion - Greek
Jesus vs. Ieo - Chinese
Jesus vs. Indra - Indian, Tibetian
Jesus vs. Inanna - Sumerian
Jesus vs. Ischy - Asian
Jesus vs. Ixion - Greek
Jesus vs. Jao - Nepalese
Jesus vs. Jupiter (aka Jove) - Rome
Jesus vs. Krishna - Indian
Jesus vs. Lao-Kiun - Chinese
Jesus vs. Marsyas - Greek
Jesus vs. Maximus Christos - Israelite
Jesus vs. Melkarth - Greek
Jesus vs. Mikado - Japanese
Jesus vs. Mithra - Persian, Roman
Jesus vs. Mohamud - Islamic
Jesus vs. Odin (aka Wodan) - Norse
Jesus vs. Orion - Greek
Jesus vs. Osiris - Egyptian
Jesus vs. Perseus - Greek
Jesus vs. Prometheus - Greek
Jesus vs. Quetzalcoatl - Aztec
Jesus vs. Quirinus - Roman
Jesus vs. Sakia - Indian
Jesus vs. Salivahana - Indian
Jesus vs. Samheim (aka Samhain) - Druid
Jesus vs. Sammonocadam (Aka Sommona-Codom) - Siamese
Jesus vs. Sandan of Tarsus - Greek
Jesus vs. Serapis (aka Asar-Hapi, Zaparrus) - Egyptian, Greek
Jesus vs. Shang-Ti (aka Chang-Ti, Tien) - Chinese
Jesus vs. Sun/Zodiac
Jesus vs. Sybillene Universal Monarch
Jesus vs. Tammuz (aka Dumuzi) - Sumerian
Jesus vs. Taut (aka Thoth) - Phoenican
Jesus vs. Thor - Norse
Jesus vs. Tien - China
Jesus vs. Virishna - Indian
Jesus vs. Wittoba (aka Vithoba, Withoban) - Bilingonese
Jesus vs. Zalmoxis of Thrace (aka Xamolxis, Xaniolxis)
Jesus vs. Zeus - Greece
Jesus vs. Zoar of the Bonzes - Asian
Jesus vs. Zoroaster (aka Zarathustra) - Persian
Jesus vs. Zulis (aka Thulis, Zhule) - Egyptian
The writers can estimate he was 33 years at his crucifixion but have no idea as to actual years or day or month, in one writing it is said that he had not yet reached 50 years (could that mean he was a bit older?) as there were no actual eye witnesses to these events among the writers of the bible. Again Stories taken from pagan gods and their existance.
quote:Originally posted by HappyNanoq
Bible written by man
Many papers were written a long time after.
Thus... faith is just heresay.
Of course it was written by man. Who would you think wrote it? God used man to write many books that make up the Bible. The Bible itself is confirmed repeatedly with a long HISTORY and SCIENCE.
Well you are offcourse free to twist my words as you please - but that's not what I wrote.
I wrote that bible was written by man - and the program was written by man.
One was written to validate or search something else that was written by man.
As I wrote that many papers weren't written at the time they happened, how can we be absolutely SURE that it is exactly THAT way it happened.?
The written text is only interpretation - not "recording".
Which makes it heresay to me.
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
Such as? Show original sources.
gladly
.
.
CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.)
"Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also."
Tacitus got his information about Christ from the Christians, in order to explain them. the rest of what he wrote were actual current events, but the part about christ was heresay he got from the christians themselves. so where are the records of "today, Pontius Pilate did this... to this person..."? where has that ever been said?
GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLUS (69 - 130 A.D.)
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from Rome."
says nothing about whether the jews were reacting to an actual person, or, propaganda/rhetopric/heresay about a fictitious Jesus.
THALLUS (~ 52 A.D.)
"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness. The rocks were rent by an earthquake and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover. But an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time... Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth-manifestly that one of which we speak."
whatever. where are the walking dead people?
PLINY THE YOUNGER (63 - 113 A.D)
"I asked them directly if they were Christians...those who persisted, I ordered away... Those who denied they were or ever had been Christians...worshiped both your image and the images of the gods and cursed Christ. They used to gather on a stated day before dawn and sing to Christ as if he were a god... All the more I believed it necessary to find out what was the truth from two servant maids, which were called deaconesses, by means of torture. Nothing more did I find than a disgusting, fanatical superstition. Therefore I stopped the examination, and hastened to consult you...on account of the number of people endangered. For many of all ages, all classes, and both sexes already are brought into danger..."
says nothing about whether the christians were reacting to an actual person, or, propaganda/rhetopric/heresay about a fictitious Jesus.
these quotes do not prove what you are saying. they are indeterminate at best. you need better proof.
quote:Originally posted by Barzillia
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
Sorry Mr. Perfect, your faith is getting in your way. The Bible is a great book, but very poor history.
Please provide an example.
I would be interested.
That is a very broad statement. I'd be interested in an example as well.
Other than the Torah, the old testament, there is no historical evidence that the exodus from Egypt ever occured. Not a single document or stone corroborates that story.
Pontis Pilot is mentioned in one Roman document, so we know he lived. He was in a very diffent place with a different title in the Roman government, and there is no corroboration that he was ever in Isreal.
At the time Joshua was supposed to have destroyed Jericho, Jericho was a ruin.
Archeology not faith.
why is Mithras also called "the good shepherd", born from a rock (a virgin rock) in a cave, and attended by shepherds?
WORSHIPPERS ATE THEIR BODY (EUCHARIST): Osiris, Dionysis, and Attis
SACRIFICED THEMSELVES FOR THE GOOD OF MANKIND: Osiris, Attis, and Adonis
NAILED TO A TREE: Attis
SAVIORS OF MANKIND: Zeus, Heilos, Artemis, Dionysus, Hercales, the Dioscurui, Ceybele and Aesculapius, Osiris.
DIE AND COME BACK TO LIFE: Adonis and Attis, Osiris and Dionysus
VIRGIN BIRTHS: Krishna, Dionysus, Hertha, *, Danae, Melanippe, Auge and Antiope
quote:From Mithraism Christ takes the symbolic keys of heaven and hell and assumes the function of the virgin-born Saoshyant, the destroyer of the Evil One. Like Mithra, Merodach, and the Egyptian Khousu, he is the Mediator; like Khousu, Horus and Merodach, he is one of a trinity, like Horus he is grouped with a Divine Mother; like Khousu he is joined to the Logos; and like Merodach he is associated with the Holy Spirit, one of whose symbols is fire."
There is no Historocity of this Jesus ever existing. Only in Stories.
1.1. No Primary Source (First-Person) Accounts of Jesus Exist
No historians of the time mention Jesus. Suetonius (65-135) does not. Pliny the Younger only mentions Christians (Paulists) with no comment of Jesus himself. Tacitus mentions a Jesus, but it is likely that after a century of Christian preaching Tacitus was just reacting to these rumours, or probably talking about one of the many other Messiah's of the time. Josephus, a methodical, accurate and dedicated historian of the time mentions John the Baptist, Herod, Pilate and many aspects of Jewish life but does not mention Jesus. (The Testimonium Flavianum has been shown to be a third century Christian fraud). He once mentions a Jesus, but gives no information other than that he is a brother of a James. Jesus was not an unusual name, either. Justus, another Jewish historian who lived in Tiberias (near Kapernaum, a place Jesus frequented) did not mention Jesus nor any of his miracles. It is only in the evidence of later writers, writing about earlier times, that we find a Jesus. What is more surprising (Jesus could simply have been unknown to local historians) is that academics note that the gospels themselves do not allude to first-hand historical sources, either!
"The four Gospels that eventually made it into the New Testament, for example, are all anonymous, written in the third person about Jesus and his companions. None of them contains a first-person narrative ("One day, when Jesus and I went into Capernaum..."), or claims to be written by an eyewitness or companion of an eyewitness. Why then do we call them Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? Because sometime in the second century, when proto-orthodox Christians recognized the need for apostolic authorities, they attributed these books to apostles (Matthew and John) and close companions of apostles (Mark, the secretary of Peter; and Luke, the travelling companion of Paul). Most scholars today have abandoned these identifications, and recognize that the books were written by otherwise unknown but relatively well-educated Greek-speaking (and writing) Christians during the second half of the first century."
There is No Evidence for the Story of the Birth of Jesus
"Mostly derived from pagan myths, Jesus' birth stories are very dubious, and it very likely that all such beliefs were written retrospectively by the Roman gospel writers, or were assumed from the outset. There is no evidence or reason to believe that they actually occurred. Events such as King Herod's killing of every male child simply could not have gone unnoticed, these pagan myths were however assumed of all god-man saviours. Modern Christmas is a combination of pagan and ancient practices. Its eclectic nature makes it a multicultural event suitable for appropriation by nearly anyone, including staunch secularists. Jesus' existence remains a mystery, we cannot validate even the simplest facts about his birth, and this fact has led some scholars to cast doubt on Jesus' entire existence."
There is No Evidence for the Story of the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus
"The crucifixion story of Jesus Christ is mythical, based on pagan religions, and makes no sense:
There is a complete absence of evidence for the events described - no authors mention the phenomenal events that supposedly occurred at the time of Jesus' resurrection, and, there are no records of Jesus being crucified in the first place. This is despite there being multiple historians of the time who kept extensive records of events in that era, especially of unusual events and the misdeeds of rulers. The only records we have are those written by Christians themselves, the Gospels. And within each of those gospels nearly all details of the crucifixion and resurrection are different. Very important details, such as Jesus' last words, are so different that it appears they are simply being made up by the authors. The earliest Christians did not know simple details such as where Jesus was buried.
Most the details of Jesus' death and rebirth are similar to the existing myths surrounding god-men in that era. The similarities to the Christs of other pagan religions are shockingly detailed, so much so that early Church fathers had to defend themselves against pagan critics who said that the stories of Jesus were simply pagan stories with new names.
God-Man myths were very popular and pre-dated the God-Man of Jesus by thousands of years. They all shared a common format which (or "vegetation myths") is that the Son of God has 12 disciples, and is betrayed and killed by a traitor. Popular myths such as the virgin birth, miracles, curing the blind and ill are also familiar and common aspects of these myths. As such, such events were assumed to be true of the historical Jesus. These myths became interwoven amongst the stories of someone who might have been real. Many Jewish sayings became attributed to this character, and sayings of John the Baptist too. Stories about the disciples were assumed to be true and not simply symbolic stories as the original gnostic Christians believed. Once people wrote pseudipigraphically under the names of the disciples people accepted them as true too. The rest is history, but initially is based on mistaken pseudo-historical accounts.
Jesus and Other God-Men are Personifications of the Sun
"The reason why all these narratives are so similar, with a godman who is crucified and resurrected, who does miracles and has 12 disciples, is that these stories were based on the movements of the sun through the heavens, an astrotheological development that can be found throughout the planet because the sun and the 12 zodiac signs can be observed around the globe. In other words, Jesus Christ and all the others upon whom this character is predicated are personifications of the sun, and the Gospel fable is merely a rehash of a mythological formula (the "Mythos," as mentioned above) revolving around the movements of the sun through the heavens.
For instance, many of the world's crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that "God's sun" had "died" for three days and was "born again" on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the "sun of God's" birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the "sun of God":
The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
The sun is the "Light of the World."
The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
The sun "walks on water."
The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30?; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.
"
1) Other than the Torah, the old testament, there is no historical evidence that the exodus from Egypt ever occured. Not a single document or stone corroborates that story.
2) Pontis Pilot is mentioned in one Roman document, so we know he lived. He was in a very diffent place with a different title in the Roman government, and there is no corroboration that he was ever in Isreal.
3) At the time Joshua was supposed to have destroyed Jericho, Jericho was a ruin.
1. The Red Sea crossing area has been found and confirmed by more than one research team. One even sent a mini sub to the bottom and got video of the bones and chariot wheels of the remains of the pharaoh's army. The pharaoh himself is missing. The mummy said to be his has been studied and found not to match his age height, or sex. The rest of the exodus site is at Mt Sinai also found complete with the split rock Moses struck and the lake it produced. (water has dried up)
The Search for the Real Mount Sinai
43 min (video)
www.archive.org/details/The_Search_for_the_Real_Mt_Sinai
Shows the exodus route including Mount Sinai in Saudi Arabia
illustrated
http://pinkoski.com/Articles/Real-Mt.-Sinai.html
2. This was already posted. Indeed Pilate is recorded by Roman historians crucifying Jesus.
3. You will find you are equally mistaken about Jericho. Secular science often confirms the biblical accounts but sometimes it takes them a while to catch up. I've seen this on video before but dont have that link in front of me right now. You may check archive.org
Nazareth, The City That Never Was
The evidence for a 1st century town of Nazareth does not exist - not literary, not archaeologically, and not historically.
Biblical scholars and clergy alike have always had difficulty accepting the possibility that at the time of Jesus there was no city called "Nazareth." They have always resisted this possibility and sometimes, quite vigorously.
The Encyclopaedia Biblica, a work written by theologians, and perhaps the greatest biblical reference work in the English language, says: "We cannot venture to assert positively that there was a city of Nazareth in Jesus' time."
Nazareth is not mentioned in any historical records or biblical texts of the time and receives no mention by any contemporary historian. Nazareth is not mentioned in the Old Testament, the Talmud (the Jewish law code), nor in the Apocrypha and it does not appear in any early rabbinic literature.
Nazareth was not included in the list of settlements of the tribes of Zebulon (Joshua 19:10-16) which mentions twelve towns and six villages, and Nazareth is not included among the 45 cities of Galilee that were mentioned by Josephus (37AD-100AD), a widely traveled historian who never missed anything and who voluminously describes the region. The name is also missing from the 63 towns of Galilee mentioned in the Talmud.
The first reference to Nazareth is in the New Testament where it can be found 29 different times. However, there is still cause for speculation as to whether or not the city existed at the time of Jesus. It is mentioned only in the Gospels and Acts. These books do refer to Nazareth, but they did not originate at this time, they are later writings. The earlier writings of the NT (Paul etc) mention Jesus 221 times - but never mention Nazareth.
So how can the fabled Jesus be from Nasareth if it didnt exist for 100 years of more after his death?
It is evident that many things were invented in order to make it look like this character actually existed. However he no more existed than Osiris, Odin, Thor or Neptune.
2. there were no roman historians that recorded a Pilate crucifying a Jesus. and how believable is the story that goes
"When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands and said, "I am innocent of the blood of this Just person. You see to it." And all the people answered and said, "His blood be upon us and on our children." (Matthew 27:24-25)
yeah right the jews said that. does this not sound like some kind of propaganda? Yes.
3. science still hasn't caught up to the bible where it says the earth is flat, square and supported by pillars. or that lions used to eat grass. or that the earth and entire universe are only a few thousand years old. probably never will.
You gentlemen may attempt to establish whatever you wish by whatever means, but so far you have done nothing to disprove scripture.
Claims that there is no eyewitness testimony is baseless, as all four synoptic writers were contemporaries with Jesus. And if they were contemporaries, that means their writing also took place within their lifetimes, which means that the four gospels were written by, being generous, 100 AD.
It is immaterial whether anybody else wrote what they wrote, or not. That does not change the value of their testimony. Indeed, it makes it only the more valuable.
Claims that the historicity of scripture is faulty are baseless, as well, unless you are keeping something to yourself. Bring it out, let us see and hear it !
Claims that Christianity is simply a re-iteration of pagan faiths are baseless as well, since the fundamental claim of the gospel is that the Creator God, the "I Am", the ground of all being, chose to plan from before creation to redeem all men who would be saved, through bearing their guilt and punishment on a cross, and subsequent resurrection.
Making all human efforts at perfection, or "good", worthless and reconciling all of a fallen creation to Himself at a future and final judgement, heading into eternity.
There ain't nothing like it, gents, not anywhere, and all others are posers and pale shadows of the ultimate truth; coincidental, if you will, at most, but hardly evidence of the grand claims you bring before us while claiming that you hold the actual absolute truths of the matter.
Piffle, I say.
You can nourish an appreciation of any similarity between any of the assorted cults, mix, match and combine to your heart's content, whisper to yourself in the night, and share with others of like beliefs the baseless claims of desperate and fallen men, but that just will never make it so.
And yet, despite all that, you may still come and see.
It is a good day to die !
oh yes, let those who wish to ignore the truth, find the truth.
What about this bit of information, Nazareth? didnt exist.
Nazareth, The City That Never Was
The evidence for a 1st century town of Nazareth does not exist - not literary, not archaeologically, and not historically.
You're just not looking very hard. You're looking in all the wrong places!
Jesus-era home found in Nazareth
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8425094.stm
All this business about Jesus not existing no scholar atheist or otherwise will agree with. They all agree a man named Jesus was crucified by Pilate as the historians of the day record. The skeptics only do not believe in the miraculous things. Only recently have some books been written by shady individuals claiming Jesus never existed using unsourced claims.