What is going to happen today? UPDATE 2

select-fire

I got a call last night around 10PM. There has been a shooting at my rental property. Law has come and gone. My Tenants girlfriend calls him and leaves a message on the answering machine her brother is on his way to do my Tenant harm. He is not home YET. Then the excitement begins after he comes home listens to the answer machine.. her brother shows up. Here are the facts:

1. Brother comes to home to do Tenant harm. Tenant opens up front door and ask brother to leave . Words are exchanged and brother will not leave and tells tenant he is going to kick his butt.

2. Tenant then pulls his Astra .38 and tells the brother to leave. He does not leave but tells the tenant.. OK.. then go ahead and shoot me..

3. Tenant then discharges weapon to the side of brother who is outside on the porch.

4. Brother lunges forward and a scuffle occurs THRU the open front door and into the home. Brother ends up on the floor and bangs his head on a piece of furniture. He then crawls on all fours out the door. The tenant then is standing outside while he crawls by.

Law came back and Tenant writes a statement. He did not state in the statement he pointed the weapon at the brother BUT did tell the Officer he did point it when he arrived the first time. Officer also wrote his statement to give to the Detectives today. The Brother is the one that called the Law..

What do you think will happen???

hughbetcha

Nobody goes to jail. Landlord has to patch bullet hole in floor.

Lexan

nunn shows up and poofed them both.

Serves them right

lazerus

Tenant will have legal expenses and wont be able to pay his rent.
recommend starting eviction procedure on whatever basis you can immediately.

Lexan

Landlord arrested for harboring a criminal.

select-fire

Dano, on who.. the brother or the tenant? Bullet went outside into the ground. laserus, tenant has a good job .. I spoke with Officer while the tenant was inside writing his report. Officer said it was 50/50 whether he would be arrested. I ask him what the charge would be? Officer said banishing and Pointing a deadly weapon. Lexan.. don't quit your day job [:o)]

KYfatboy

Depending on state law, here if he is in your house, you are legal to shoot.quote:Originally posted by dano
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
Dano, on who.. the brother or the tenant? Bullet went outside into the ground. laserus, tenant has a good job .. I spoke with Officer while the tenant was inside writing his report. Officer said it was 50/50 whether he would be arrested. I ask him what the charge would be? Officer said banishing and Pointing a deadly weapon. Lexan.. don't quit your day job [:o)]



Tenant could / would be charged with agg. assault. Anytime you possess a fiream, point it at, or in the direction of another, and then discharge it....you got some "splaining" to do......specially if your life wasn't in jeopardy.

select-fire

I actually told the Tenant to have someone ready to bail him out. What would be the bail? and what kinda fine or jail time. He has no record... Just a typical case of someone with a firearm that didn't do the right thing. He should have not answered the door and called the law or let the brother either leave or do a forced entry.

hughbetcha

Warning shots are always a bad idea. If the tenant had pulled the gun and ordered the brother outside, he'd be free and clear. As long as the tenant maintains he was in fear for his life in his own house, he may go to jail for a few hours, but he should get off without conviction.

select-fire

The altercation took place OUTSIDE. The brother was on the Porch and the tenant fired from within the home.

select-fire

Ok.. Now it is time for me to go see the tenant before he ends up in jail... and might not be able to bail out. SC has a new law on the books IF a tenant goes to jail the landlord has to let the property sit till they get out... which could be a long time. I need for the tenant to sign a waiver so I can store his stuff.

COLT

...goes before a grand jury for determination. It then depends on the states laws. Could be "no bill" by way of self defense, could be brandishing a weapon in a threatening manner. Either way, if the DA does not have his heart in prosecuting the guy, probation at most.

Tenant (Select)
quote:He does not leave but tells the tenant.. OK.. then go ahead and shoot me..

...what NOT to say to scared individual with a gun...[:D]





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Warbirds

So everything could have been avoided if the Brother had not shown up to begin with correct? In my completely unqualified opinion the brother should have the law coming down on him, not the other way around. The tenant may be a real looser, (maybe beating the girlfriend/sister who knows), and the tenant sounds like an idiot, as well, good job or not I would get that waiver signed, he should have listened to the message, LEFT the house, and called the police or tried to resolve whatever the problem is/was.

select-fire

dano, The officer I spoke with said he possibly could have shown the firearm within the home but pointing it is where he screwed up. Then to ice the cake he discharged it as a warning shot in which the tenant could be construed as attempted murder of the brother. He should have shut the front door on the brother.

Alpine

All the tenant had to do is sit tight in the house, and call LEOs when brother came. Then LEOs would contact brother outside and either arrest him for whatever and tenant would be home free.

If brother had broken into the house to do battery coupled with the verbal threats on the answering machine, tenant could defend himself with up to deadly force.

Tenant is not really smart is he?

bpost

Another post PROVING that the .45 is a better round. [:D][:D]

select-fire

Alpine.. not really for acting stupid. In fact he had .38's in a .357. If your going to ever do it.. do it right.

Highball

Shows exactly how far this 'culture' has fallen .

Show up at MY house..stand on MY front porch..Threaten Me...and the universal accepted wisdom is to run inside, hide under the bed, and call in the mercenaries.

Okay.

Alpine

The Point is to stay out of jail, and prison. How can you enjoy shooting if your locked up?

Use the existing system to solve the problem and you retain your freedom.

Or you can think with your little head, and do the "manly" thing and end up in jail.

A "no brainier" decision.

select-fire

Well one thing did come positive out of the whole mess. I will probably be buying all the tenants guns and tools so he can pay attorney fees... I smell a giveaway soon [:)]

zipperzap

quote:OK.. then go ahead and shoot me..

That's got to be the next most stupid string of words
an idiot ever strung ... except for, "But you promised
me you were 18"!!!

Horse Plains Drifter

quote:Highball Posted

---

Shows exactly how far this 'culture' has fallen .

Show up at MY house..stand on MY front porch..Threaten Me...and the universal accepted wisdom is to run inside, hide under the bed, and call in the mercenaries.

Okay.

What Highball said.

hughbetcha

I think a lot will depend on the state of mind of the tenant and the brother, as well as past actions of both parties that could lead reasonable people to assume their life was in danger..

If the brother threatened to break the door down and kill the tenant, the tenant was in reasonable fear for his life.

If the brother has threatened the tenants life before or at the time of the shooting, the the tenant is in reasonable fear for his life. If the brother has a habit of carrying guns with him, or has threatened the tenant with grave * harm in the past, the tenant could reasonably be in fear for his life.

A good lawyer would make shooting from the house look like a perfectly legal and reasonable response to a threat from someone who was breaking into the home to kill the resident.

select-fire

No past history between the two. Don't know what set the brother off? He has never been to the rental before. The front door was opened by the tenant to confront the brother. Tenant ask him to leave .. he didn't. Tenant decided to show handgun and fire a warning shot.

He Dog

Select-Fire, please give away the guns and keep the tools.[}:)][:p]

Alpine

But.. But... But...There was'nt any name calling, trash talk and threats exchanged between responders.

And Dano you didn't even stir the pot even once! Lost your touch in your old age?

pickenup

A little different scenario, but one of my brothers went to prison for a few years, for firing a "warning" shot into the ground.

Highball

Wasn't discussing the 'law' here...a system that is making enuchs of the American male.

Was pointing out how atitudes are and HAVE changed...

Some things we do not know here, as far as the gun is concerned.

Was 'brother' 6'4", 245 lbs...and tenet 5'5"...? Naturally putting little guy in fear of his life....was tenet frail...weakly ? Are we now obliged to allow a beating at others whim...?

From My viewpoint...walking up on a guys' OWN porch and threatening to whip him..then disobeying a direct order to LEAVE...THAT ORDER, BY THE WAY...CARRIES MORE WEIGHT THEN A POLICE OFFICERS ORDER..or would, in a free country...is a direct invitation to be shot.

ANti-Gunners find things like this offensive...? As do many of you...? I have a suggestion..Stay the hell off my porch..and don't threaten me on it.

select-fire

Tenant is 5'9" and probably goes 165# and is 40 years old. Brother was 5'9" 135# and 22 years old.More to the story tonight... Tenant has not been arrested YET. He needs and told Detective today he had a witness... another neighbor, who actually told me he took the gun away from my Tenant after the brother left. He said the Tenant was walking around outside with the gun. The tenant actually told me the brother was on the porch against the front door when he opened the front door. Tenant put the gun against the brothers forehead with the hammer cocked !! and then turned it away 12" or so and fired it. Brother may have hearing damage... I look for the tenant to be arrested tomorrow after the others so called witness tenant gives a statement. So called witness tenant is the one who called me when it happened. He said he saw nothing till the brother left in the truck..

morsecode

quote:Originally posted by pickenup
A little different scenario, but one of my brothers went to prison for a few years, for firing a "warning" shot into the ground.


Ditto that. I don't know where you guys live but in this state a SWAT squad would've sealed off the neighborhood and everyone involved would have gone to jail and been held. I can't even imagine firing a gun, having the police come and take statements and leave without making an arrest.

This was part of the response to a domestic disturbance call in Canton, CT yesterday. And a gun was not involved.

Warpig883

I think it really does depend on state law. Here not much would happen except the person who came to the house and threatened the tenent would probably be in jail. If someone is on your property to do you harm you are justified in protecting yourself including lethal force.

Jimmy Boss

Tenant should have double tapped brother in the forehead. [}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]

select-fire

UPDATE: Tenant just called me and said the matter would be dropped from the District Attorney's office. The Detective would not elaborate any more...

I have a question to LEO's ?? The tenants voluntary statement had a place to sign as a witness or have it notorized. The Officer had him write this statement IN THE HOME... and it was not notorized or signed where it said witness. Was the statement legal?

n/a

quote:Originally posted by select-fire
UPDATE: Tenant just called me and said the matter would be dropped from the District Attorney's office. The Detective would not elaborate any more...

I have a question to LEO's ?? The tenants voluntary statement had a place to sign as a witness or have it notorized. The Officer had him write this statement IN THE HOME... and it was not notorized or signed where it said witness. Was the statement legal?


I assume you are glad your tennant is not being arrested???...just trying to understand why you are wondering about his statement...

select-fire

I am thinkin he got off cause of a techicality. ( the statement not properly done ). Frankly I am not pleased at all of someone pointing a firearm and holding it to anyones head. This whole matter could have been resolved another way. In the back of my head I am thinking maybe just maybe this could happen again OR the tenant may decide to do it to ME for no reason. A civil arguement does not give a party reason to do it.

KYfatboy

A verbal altercation in were one threatens another with serious physical injury, or death in ones place of residence is justifacation for shooting another. The tenat should have shot to kill, said he threatned him with death, and it would have been over. SO si kiel mine furior.quote:Originally posted by dano

Originally posted by KYfatboy
Depending on state law, here if he is in your house, you are legal to shoot.



A verbal altercation between persons in a home or not, does not give one the right to shoot at another.

In the situation given, not only was the use of a firearm totally out-of-line, but very illegal as well.

Just another fine example of a person having a firearm that shouldn't have. [:(!]

select-fire

It sure ain't reason in this state..[;)] BTW.. again I will state the party was outside on the porch..

1911a1-fan

i once stuck a double barrel 12 gauge to a guys head, after he kicked in my disabled fathers front door, and threatened him, when the sheriff arrived i still had the gun in my hand, he got out kindly asked me to put it away, and asked what the problem was, when it all got hashed out the other guy was given more crap then i was, if he wanted to pursue charges on me, he could have, but then he would have been arrested for what he had done, so it was a mutual agreement, and the fact that he was a habitual criminal helped out allot

wipala

quote:Originally posted by select-fire
I got a call last night around 10PM. There has been a shooting at my rental property. Law has come and gone. My Tenants girlfriend calls him and leaves a message on the answering machine her brother is on his way to do my Tenant harm. He is not home YET. Then the excitement begins after he comes home listens to the answer machine.. her brother shows up. Here are the facts:

1. Brother comes to home to do Tenant harm. Tenant opens up front door and ask brother to leave . Words are exchanged and brother will not leave and tells tenant he is going to kick his butt.

2. Tenant then pulls his Astra .38 and tells the brother to leave. He does not leave but tells the tenant.. OK.. then go ahead and shoot me..

3. Tenant then discharges weapon to the side of brother who is outside on the porch.

4. Brother lunges forward and a scuffle occurs THRU the open front door and into the home. Brother ends up on the floor and bangs his head on a piece of furniture. He then crawls on all fours out the door. The tenant then is standing outside while he crawls by.

Law came back and Tenant writes a statement. He did not state in the statement he pointed the weapon at the brother BUT did tell the Officer he did point it when he arrived the first time. Officer also wrote his statement to give to the Detectives today. The Brother is the one that called the Law..

What do you think will happen???
He should have invited him in shot him dead run outside and kicked his own door in and told the police the dead guy did it. He has his girlfriends phone message stating the brothers intent and bingo instant proof of self defense

KYfatboy

In such situations it dosen't take much to for A agressive person to inter A place of residence. I would think any 40 something year old, faced with an agressive 22 year old, should speak for itself. If the laws in your state are that way, perhaps they need to be changed.[;)]quote:Originally posted by select-fire
It sure ain't reason in this state..[;)] BTW.. again I will state the party was outside on the porch..

wipala

quote:Originally posted by select-fire
Tenant is 5'9" and probably goes 165# and is 40 years old. Brother was 5'9" 135# and 22 years old.More to the story tonight... Tenant has not been arrested YET. He needs and told Detective today he had a witness... another neighbor, who actually told me he took the gun away from my Tenant after the brother left. He said the Tenant was walking around outside with the gun. The tenant actually told me the brother was on the porch against the front door when he opened the front door. Tenant put the gun against the brothers forehead with the hammer cocked !! and then turned it away 12" or so and fired it. Brother may have hearing damage... I look for the tenant to be arrested tomorrow after the others so called witness tenant gives a statement. So called witness tenant is the one who called me when it happened. He said he saw nothing till the brother left in the truck..
Younger or older brother and if older how much so. Maybe the tenant needed as azzkicking.[}:)][}:)]