In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.

Why Do Police So Rarely Believe In...

OJMayoOJMayo Member Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭
edited June 2007 in General Discussion
....self defense for non law enforcement ?

Comments

  • Fatboy livesFatboy lives Member Posts: 708 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Takes away from their authority. If everyone is able to defend themselves, then what are the police for.
  • dcinffxvadcinffxva Member Posts: 2,830 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Geez.....what makes you believe that is true ?

    This is a great opportunity for OJ and Fatboy to look like fools though. I'm awaiting Bondai's response !
  • OJMayoOJMayo Member Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    after watching years of Cops and now The First 48 Hours, many many many times there have been clear cases of self defense yet the police still arrest the people. Thank God we have juries who can see clearly.
  • ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    Great... you're relying on reality TV for your information?!?

    No wonder you've got such a skewed view of things.
  • OJMayoOJMayo Member Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    EMM - and where do you get your information in police and self defense cases ?
  • ElMuertoMonkeyElMuertoMonkey Member Posts: 12,898
    edited November -1
    I talk to cops. They've been uniformally in favor of self defense by civilians - they'd much rather fill out a report on a dead scumbag than a raped victim.
  • Ba SardoBa Sardo Member Posts: 562 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OJMayo,

    Are you talking about lethal self defense or non-lethal? Lots of LEOs I know always caution against killing someone, but they are all for civvies not being made victims of.
  • OJMayoOJMayo Member Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Ba Sardo
    OJMayo,

    Are you talking about lethal self defense or non-lethal? Lots of LEOs I know always caution against killing someone, but they are all for civvies not being made victims of.


    both. but when it is lethal the onus seems to be on the part of the victim to prove it was self defense. also, when it comes to fights the police always seem to arrest both parties and/or arrest the victorious party for some reason.
    i must add, i am almost always on the side of law enforcement.
    there have been many article posted here on GB about people using firearms in self defense and the articles almost always quote a police chief or prosecutor saying something like "the evidence at this time shows there might be a self defense argument but we will continue to investigate" and this is when it is almost always obvious it WAS self defense.
  • Ba SardoBa Sardo Member Posts: 562 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by OJMayo
    quote:Originally posted by Ba Sardo
    OJMayo,

    Are you talking about lethal self defense or non-lethal? Lots of LEOs I know always caution against killing someone, but they are all for civvies not being made victims of.


    both. but when it is lethal the onus seems to be on the part of the victim to prove it was self defense. also, when it comes to fights the police always seem to arrest both parties and/or arrest the victorious party for some reason.
    i must add, i am almost always on the side of law enforcement.
    there have been many article posted here on GB about people using firearms in self defense and the articles almost always quote a police chief or prosecutor saying something like "the evidence at this time shows there might be a self defense argument but we will continue to investigate" and this is when it is almost always obvious it WAS self defense.


    When it's lethal, of course the onus is on the part of the "victim" to prove it was self-defense. Dead men tell no tales, after all. And cops have to investigate, no matter how open and shut a case may seem because not everything is what it seems.
  • Tailgunner1954Tailgunner1954 Member Posts: 7,815
    edited November -1
    I hang on a LEO board (good entertainment) and they all view the show COP's as a lesson in how NOT to do things. IOW they rate it as being only 1 step more realistic than RENO 911
  • Mr. GunzMr. Gunz Member Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    Great... you're relying on reality TV for your information?!?

    No wonder you've got such a skewed view of things.



    damn CNN
  • bobskibobski Member Posts: 17,868 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    open cursing is poor taste, offensive and against rules. please edit refrain. thank you.
    Retired Naval Aviation
    Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
    Former NSSA All American
    Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
    MO, CT, VA.
  • spanielsellsspanielsells Member Posts: 12,498
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    Great... you're relying on reality TV for your information?!?

    No wonder you've got such a skewed view of things.


    Bad boys bad boys
    Whatcha gonna do?
    Whatcha gonna do
    When they come for you?

    I'm gonna go to Gunbroker
    I'm gonna be a troll
    I'm gonna make some dumb posts
    I don't care if I get banned at all.

    Bad boys bad boys
    Whatcha gonna do?
    Whatcha gonna do
    When they come for you?

    If they kick me off it
    I'm gonna change my name
    Doesn't matter if its once or twice
    To me it is all the same

    Bad boys bad boys
    Whatcha gonna do?
    Whatcha gonna do
    When they come for you?
  • Fatboy livesFatboy lives Member Posts: 708 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by dcinffxva
    Geez.....what makes you believe that is true ?

    This is a great opportunity for OJ and Fatboy to look like fools though. I'm awaiting Bondai's response !


    I think you mean its more of a good chance to get you crying again don't you now? You know I'm right on this, I do agree that not all are this way, but you know most of todays cops have the attitude I've talked about.
  • bigtirebigtire Member Posts: 24,800
    edited November -1
    Arrested and charged are two different things. When there is a lethal self defense incident the LEOs have to do a complete and exhaustive investigation. That will most definately involve detaining the person who used lethal force. What things look like on the surface are not always what they are.
  • DocDoc Member Posts: 13,899 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some states require that anyone involved in a fatal encounter be taken into custody until the facts get sorted out.

    I dispute your contention that a majority of cops oppose self-defense. Every study that I have seen shows that rank and file cops favor gun ownership and the use of guns in self-defense (around 80% if I recall correctly).

    You have to remember that public relations office requires the cops to say things like "don't resist" to avoid lawsuits. Also bear in mind cops in NYC and Chicago are likely more anti-gun than cops everywhere else, and the police chiefs (who are more politician than cop in big cities) are more likely to be toadies for the mayor and spout anti-gun slogans.

    When I shot an armed robber in 1975 the cops lined up to thank me for taking the scum off the street. I wasn't taken into custody, and I got my gun back the next day.

    As others have noted, be wary of using TV as a source for ANY information and you might to make sure you know what you're talking about before you go spouting off in public.
    ....................................................................................................
    Too old to live...too young to die...
  • Fatboy livesFatboy lives Member Posts: 708 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Saxon, the main difference in what you speak of is 1975 when most in the profession were peace officers, and today when most are LEO's. If the state requires taking into custody when there is clearly no need in it, then it is a bad law, and should not be enforced. Yes all of you LEO'S, I said a bad law should not be enforced. Get over it.
  • AlpineAlpine Member Posts: 14,795 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    To speak to the question asked: It's because people lie to the police all the time. So people are detained until the facts are correlated with the stories. A homicide is a very important case to get right the first time.

    Twenty years of law enforcement and several lethal self defense incidents I have handled, so I will tell you that LEO's do want you to defend yourself, but they do want you to get it right. That requires YOU to know your state laws on self defense. And don't rely on what you read on the internet, or what a friend told you. Take a college class from a working LEO to learn the facts.

    To detain people at a homicide is SOP in most departments, and if you think that the COPS TV program is a teaching tool, you are sadly mistaken. It's a TV show that is edited for entrainment value, not to get the facts right.


    Fatboy:
    And I worked through 1975 and I have no idea why that year has any significance as to peace officers and law enforcement. During the 70's the Policy and Procedures were standardized throughout the nation. But other than that the patrol cars went from the bubble light to a light bar. And also we went from low band radios to high band.
    ?The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.?
    Margaret Thatcher

    "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
    Mark Twain
  • deputydog214deputydog214 Member Posts: 609 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    +1 for Alpine LEO's enforce the law as written and as trained. Prosecutors do the "Prosecution." Of which most people forget!
  • DocDoc Member Posts: 13,899 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    FB- Then and now in my state it wasn't a policy but always a possibility. A crime has been committed and the cops may take anyone or everyone (still standing) in for questioning. This is not suspicious. In my case it was pretty cut and dried. Had two witnesses and a security camera that caught the whole incident on film. They reviewed the film, fired a test shot for ballistics from my 1911 and gave it back to me. There was nobody left alive to prosecute for armed robbery and assault so there would be no trial and no need for keeping the gun as evidence.

    Yes, cops enforce the laws. Even the ones they don't like. Any cop who simply can't bring himself to enforce laws he thinks are wrong should find other work. Meanwhile, blame the legislators for the bad laws, they wrote them, not the cops who are told to enforce them.
    ....................................................................................................
    Too old to live...too young to die...
  • Fatboy livesFatboy lives Member Posts: 708 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The difference in 1975 and that era, and today is the attitude. Much like the difference between an LEO, and a peace officer. There is nothing wrong with a peace officer, not enforcing a bad law. Infact it is commendable.
  • jimbowbyjimbowby Member Posts: 3,496
    edited November -1
    [8D]-It doesn't matter what the service makeup of the investigating officer is--

    --every time there is a social/domestic/public incident-especially if a firearm has been used--

    --THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "OBVIOUS SELF DEFENSE" and it has to be treated "entotal"--then the cards will fall where they may--

    --[:D][:D]--JIMBO
  • Fatboy livesFatboy lives Member Posts: 708 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by jimbowby
    [8D]-It doesn't matter what the service makeup of the investigating officer is--

    --every time there is a social/domestic/public incident-especially if a firearm has been used--

    --THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "OBVIOUS SELF DEFENSE" and it has to be treated "entotal"--then the cards will fall where they may--

    --[:D][:D]--JIMBO


    Thats the thing. It does not have to be treated "entotal". It is chosen to be treated as such. We all are stewards of right, and wrong. Just becasue something is made into a law, does not mean its wrong. Just becasuae there is no law against something, does not make it right.
  • TxsTxs Member Posts: 18,801
    edited November -1
    The way the law reads, all incidents where a person uses force which causes the death of another are defined as homicides. The difference is that some are justifiable and some are not. Even though the circumstances might be clear-cut, a timely and thorough investigation in the aftermath establishes the facts so no questions arise later.

    Even cops involved in shootings are detained for investigation and have to wait for the case to go to a grand jury.
  • WranglerWrangler Member Posts: 5,788
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
    I talk to cops. They've been uniformally in favor of self defense by civilians - they'd much rather fill out a report on a dead scumbag than a raped victim.


    +1
  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 49,599 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I reject your major premise. Now that we have that out of the way, who else have you been here? Runforest, lummy? Babybear? Surely you have trolled these waters previously.
  • tobefreetobefree Member Posts: 7,401
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by OJMayo
    ....self defense for non law enforcement ?


    Hmmm.... As it happens I have a few friends in Law enforcement ...all of them support CCW, a couple even teach the classes.....Were are you getting you info, Dianne Feinstein's website?
  • grdad45grdad45 Member Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's like I told the Asst. D. A. who taught my CCW class, "If I use my firearm in any way, I understand that you and I will have some business to attend to." I am confident that the officers who first arrive at the scene will take me into custody, and I will submit quietly. Even if it is an obvious case of self defense. We will sort it out at the station and in the presence of my attorney.
    I also understand that it is not going to be cheap to clear it up. I estimate it will cost at least $2000.
    But also be aware that I am going to try to make sure there is only one story told.
  • AlpineAlpine Member Posts: 14,795 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Fatboy: I wish you would refer me to the difference in your state, between "peace officer" and "law enforcement". I have never come across a distinction, and wonder if there is a difference in the oath they may take when sworn in.

    Again the 1975 distinction escapes me.
    ?The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.?
    Margaret Thatcher

    "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
    Mark Twain
  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by OJMayo
    ....self defense for non law enforcement ?


    Everyone I know here is all for it. You find a lot of Police Chiefs who are against it and CHL because they work for a democratic mayor who'll fire them if they don't support their anti-gun liberal agenda.
  • HandgunHTR52HandgunHTR52 Member Posts: 2,735
    edited November -1
    Fatboy - You continue to state that if a law isn't "fair" or it is "bad" that the LEO's should just ignore it (i.e. not enforce).
    My question to you is this: Who's call is it to judge the law "bad"? If everyone resorts to personal opinion regarding which laws they will follow or enforce, there is only one outcome. It is called anarchy.
  • Fatboy livesFatboy lives Member Posts: 708 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
    Fatboy - You continue to state that if a law isn't "fair" or it is "bad" that the LEO's should just ignore it (i.e. not enforce).
    My question to you is this: Who's call is it to judge the law "bad"? If everyone resorts to personal opinion regarding which laws they will follow or enforce, there is only one outcome. It is called anarchy.


    Common sense is what should prevail. It seems to be lost on many here.
  • Fatboy livesFatboy lives Member Posts: 708 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Alpine
    Fatboy: I wish you would refer me to the difference in your state, between "peace officer" and "law enforcement". I have never come across a distinction, and wonder if there is a difference in the oath they may take when sworn in.

    Again the 1975 distinction escapes me.


    Alpine, the difference is not in oath, its in attitude. The 1975 distinction should not escape anyone. In that era of this country, there were still many more with the attitude of peace officer, than LEO.
Sign In or Register to comment.