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Taser..... facts and myths

wartigerwartiger Member Posts: 3,861
edited February 2008 in General Discussion
O.K guys and gals...I have a bone to pick and this seems as good a place as any. First, I am a certified Taser instructor. Second, I am not paid, endorsed or compensated in any way by Taser International.

Taser Myths:
The TASER DOES NOT deliver 50,000 volts as the media would have you believe.
The TASER does not kill. It does not deliver enough amperage to kill, and amperage is what kills you, not volts.
The TASER does not affect your heart rate or your respiratory system.
The TASER probes do not penetrate the body as most projectiles.
And no, Taseing someone in water will not electrocute them.

Taser Facts:
The TASER is capable of producing 50,000 volts, but only delivers on average 1000-1200 volts.
The TASER produces less amps than a single christmas tree bulb, no where lethal.
The TASER affects your neuro-muscular system, meaning it affects only your large muscle masses, resulting in contraction of these muscle groups, and thus incapacitaing the suspect.
The TASER only delivers a 5 second "shock", but if necessary, can deliver multiple shocks in 5 second bursts.
The Taser's electrical frequency mimics the body's own signal, telling the brain to contract the muscles.
The Taser's charge is not capable of penetrating deep enough into the body to affect the heart.
And finally, the use of TASERS have decreased the number of police shootings, injuries to both police and suspects, the number of law suits brought by police brutality and is the greatest tool to Law Enforcement since the .40 and the Dodge Charger Hemi. Any more questions and I will be more than happy to answer.
Now I will step off my soapbox, thank you for your patience!!

Comments

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    victorlvlbvictorlvlb Member Posts: 5,004
    edited November -1
    Where can you buy one?
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    KSUmarksmanKSUmarksman Member Posts: 10,705 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by victorlvlb
    Where can you buy one?


    probably not available to peons like you and I...something the law enforcement "ubermenchen" get to keep for themselves [xx(][V]
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    wartigerwartiger Member Posts: 3,861
    edited November -1
    Civilians can purchase a Taser for personal defense. Those models actually deliver a longer shock, 15 or more seconds, if I remember correctly.This is so you can drop the TASER and run for help. They are about $700.00, but if you have to use it in a self defense situation and leave it attached to the bad guy, you send a copy of the police report and all related paperwork and TASER will send you a new Taser. Contact Taser International for details or check with your local gun shop or Law Enforcement supply company.
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    11BravoCrunchie11BravoCrunchie Member Posts: 33,423 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Can we have a live demonstration?
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    wartigerwartiger Member Posts: 3,861
    edited November -1
    I have personally "rode the lightning" five times, from the full five second ride to a contact "stun" without the probes. Check out Taser's web site for videos. But no, I WILL NOT give any more demos.
    It does hurt like hell!
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    dan kellydan kelly Member Posts: 9,799
    edited November -1
    how about the touch ones that they say are 950 000 volts? ..theyre illegal here, even the average cop cant use them so i dont know a lot about them..but ive heard the 950 000 volt ones hurt real bad.
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    leftytwogunsleftytwoguns Member Posts: 785 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wartiger
    Civilians can purchase a Taser for personal defense. Those models actually deliver a longer shock, 15 or more seconds, if I remember correctly.This is so you can drop the TASER and run for help. They are about $700.00, but if you have to use it in a self defense situation and leave it attached to the bad guy, you send a copy of the police report and all related paperwork and TASER will send you a new Taser. Contact Taser International for details or check with your local gun shop or Law Enforcement supply company.


    That is an awesome policy. I would feel more comfortable with a pistol as a lowly civilian, but that is a great policy.
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    gskyhawkgskyhawk Member Posts: 4,773
    edited November -1
    maybe everything you says is true but the simple fact is that there have been many deaths of people that where taser,, i don't care how you spin it , people are dieing after they have been taser, so to me that says the taser killed them

    as far as myself i think you can take that taser and stick it you know where [}:)]
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    nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,042 ******
    edited November -1
    People die after sex, after waking up in the morning, after dinner, after a phone call, and so on, and so on.

    I guess if the last thing a feller did before he died was (fill in blank) then that is what killed him.

    Gotta love that logic.
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    kiwibird1kiwibird1 Member Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by victorlvlb
    Where can you buy one?


    You can buy one just like my wife did, right here.

    http://www.dggtaser.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=DGG

    But I would suggest you buy a gun.
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    mrseatlemrseatle Member Posts: 15,467 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I remember when they were on $129... then they started selling them to the Gov. at $3,000 each with support package and the price to the rest of us sky-rocked up to $300+ and you are lucky to find one at $300 now[B)]
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    jwb267jwb267 Member Posts: 19,664 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    KINDA LIKE BRINGING I KNIFE TO A GUN FIGHT AINT IT[;)]
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    Tailgunner1954Tailgunner1954 Member Posts: 7,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by gskyhawk
    maybe everything you says is true but the simple fact is that there have been many deaths of people that where taser,, i don't care how you spin it , people are dieing after they have been taser, so to me that says the taser killed them

    as far as myself i think you can take that taser and stick it you know where [}:)]


    Well, considering that the vast majority of the "death by Tazer" happened to idiots that were higher than a kite on Crack, Meth and/or other illegal drugs.....IOW it was the drugs that CAUSED their death.
    However if you would prefer to be beaten into compliance I'm sure that a "Hickery Shampoo" can be arrainged instead of a "Tazer Tingle".
    Ever been "bit" by a spark plug wire, or and electric fence? They both put out more power than a Tazer does.
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    AZEXAZEX Member Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Taser has a new personal model out, available in colors, much simpler but still has the built-in laser.

    Less than 400 bucks retail.

    D.
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    wartigerwartiger Member Posts: 3,861
    edited November -1
    There have been countless studies done on the Taser. There has not been one single death directly linked to to it. In almost all cases, the people who died had a lethal amount of drugs in their system. The other cases involved subjects with heart conditions. It was the stress of fighting with the police, the fear of going to jail or other stress factors already in place. This condition is technically refered to as "Excited Delerium". These people were already doomed prior to police arrival. As I mentioned before, I have been hit 5 times and I have 10 documented Tasings in the course of my duties. NONE OF THEM DIED. As far as the 950,000 volt stun guns, totally different animal and I don't know much about them nor do I think they should be used. They are nothing more than a cattle *. No other device has been scrutinized, tested or studied like the Taser.
    And I do know where to stick it....on my duty belt. The thing has saved my butt more than once. Don't mistake the TASER as a lethal option replacement. It should never be used in place of a sidearm if a sidearm is required.
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    gruntledgruntled Member Posts: 8,218 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    They don't always work either. Remember Rodney King?
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    jonkjonk Member Posts: 10,121
    edited November -1
    $700, you say?

    For home use: my double barrel 12 gauge cost me $250 used. I prefer it to all others- no chance of a mechanical jam as compared to a pump or semi- just to utterly reliable shots.

    For carry- I don't carry as I don't have a license, but do own a very suitable gun should I choose to do so. My Smith and Wesson airlight cost me $200 used.

    If someone is approaching me with enough threat to use a taser on him....I sincerely doubt I'd have an issue with using a gun on him. Nor do I want to let him get close enough to touch him with the thing, or risk missing my shot with the type that snakes out.

    Yep, I'll go with the gun. Come to think of it, I'd take a .22 over a taser.
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    Colonel PlinkColonel Plink Member Posts: 16,460
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wartiger
    There have been countless studies done on the Taser. There has not been one single death directly linked to to it...

    I know, but the day I got tazed (live on the air) was the day after a coke-head in Denver died from too much alcohol/drugs in his system.
    Ratings GOLD, BABY!
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    gskyhawkgskyhawk Member Posts: 4,773
    edited November -1
    Taser shocks ruled cause of death
    Company disputes first such finding

    Robert Anglen
    The Arizona Republic
    Jul. 30, 2005 12:00 AM

    A Chicago medical examiner has ruled that shocks from a Taser were responsible for the death of a man in February, marking the first time that the electronic stun gun has been named as the primary cause of death.

    This is the latest challenge to Scottsdale-based Taser International's claim that its stun guns have never caused a death or serious injury and comes a week after an Illinois police department filed a class-action lawsuit claiming Taser misled law enforcement agencies about the safety of its weapon.

    The death is the 18th case in which a coroner has cited Taser as a factor in someone's death and the fourth case where Taser has been named as a cause of death. But in all of those, Taser was secondary to other factors such as drugs, heart conditions or mental illness.
    advertisement


    An autopsy report from the Cook County's Medical Examiner's Office attributed the death of Ronald Hasse, 54, to electrocution from two Taser jolts delivered by a Chicago police officer. The autopsy said methamphetamines contributed to Hasse's death.

    Taser strongly criticized the Medical Examiner's Office in a statement Friday and said it will challenge the autopsy.

    "We believe that the scientific and medical community will publicly challenge this conclusion based upon the lack of credible evidence," Taser spokesman Steve Tuttle wrote in an e-mail on Friday. "Taser International will seek a judicial review of the report and the basis for which those statements were made."

    This is not the first time Taser has challenged a medical examiner. For years, Taser officials publicly said the stun gun was never cited in an autopsy report. But an Arizona Republic investigation last year revealed that Tasers have been cited repeatedly by medical examiners in death cases and that Taser did not start collecting autopsy reports until last April.

    Taser officials later maintained that the medical examiners in those cases were wrong and did not have the credentials or expertise necessary to examine deaths involving stun guns. They now maintain that Tasers have never been cited by a medical examiner as "the sole cause of death."

    The Republic has identified 140 cases of death in the United States and Canada following a police Taser shock since 1999. Of those, coroners said, Taser was a cause of death in four cases and a contributing factor in 10 cases. In four other cases, medical examiners said Taser could not be ruled out as a cause of death.

    In his e-mail on Friday, Tuttle said Hasse's death should likely have been blamed on the methamphetamines.

    "We sincerely hope that a groundless opinion will not overshadow the medical and scientific community's conclusions as to the lethal levels of methamphetamine use," he said in the statement. "Overlooking this as a primary cause of death contradicts the very nature and purpose of these known lethal values."

    Cook County Deputy Medical Examiner Scott Denton said that drugs alone would not have caused Hasse's death. A five-second shock followed by a 57-second shock pushed Hasse "over the edge," Denton told the Chicago Sun-Times.

    "That's extraordinary," Denton said. "He became unresponsive and died after this."

    Hasse, a former securities trader who was supposed to go on trial in June in the burial of a body on an Indiana farm, confronted officers in a Chicago high-rise.

    Police said they used the Taser on Hasse when he tried to kick and bite officers during a struggle. He also threatened to infect paramedics with HIV.

    After Hasse's death, Chicago police halted plans for a Taser expansion. Denton told the Sun-Times that police should stop using Tasers on people who are acting psychotic or appear to be under the influence of drugs.

    Denton, who grew up in Scottsdale, did not return The Republic's calls for an interview on Friday. According to a Web site for the Illinois Coroners and Medical Examiners Association, Denton has worked at the Office of the Medical Examiner of Cook County for nine years. He is also an assistant professor in the pathology department at Rush University Medical Center. He got his medical degree from the University of Arizona.

    Denton told the Sun-Times that he reviewed thousands of pages of information provided by Taser. But he said his conclusion was also based on the findings of James Ruggieri, an electrical engineer who in February made a presentation to the American Academy of Forensic Sciences in which he said Taser shocks could cause cardiac arrest.

    Ruggieri, who is a forensic engineer and has consulted with police departments and the military on electrical accidents, said shocks from Taser could cause delayed ventricular fibrillation, the irregular heartbeat characteristic of a heart attack. He also said that multiple shocks from a Taser could cause someone to stop breathing and go into cardiac arrest. He said that many deaths involving Tasers have likely been wrongly dismissed as simple heart attacks or drug overdoses.

    Taser has challenged Ruggieri's credentials and said its own medical and electrical experts dispute his findings. Taser maintains that its guns have undergone dozens of tests through universities and the Department of Defense, which support its claim of safety.

    Tuttle said Friday that Denton should not have relied on "an unsubstantiated theoretical position of electrical safety as presented by James Ruggieri."

    Ruggieri said that he doesn't know Denton. He said the doctor contacted him once in February to get a copy of his academy presentation. But Ruggieri said Friday that he is not surprised by the medical examiner's conclusion.

    "It was only a matter of time," he said. "All of the impartial people - doctors, scientists, pathologists - took heed of this. They now have had facts to look at when presented with death cases involving Taser."

    Taser, in a June 28 training bulletin, advised police that "repeated, prolonged and/or continuous exposures to the Taser may cause strong muscle contractions that may impair breathing and respiration, particularly when the probes are placed across the chest or diaphragm."

    In training classes and instruction manuals, Taser has previously told police to use repeated shocks to control a suspect.

    The stun guns have been sold to more than 7,000 law enforcement agencies in the country and are credited with reducing injuries and deaths to suspects and officers and lowering the number of police shootings. But several law enforcement agencies, including the department in Birmingham, Ala., and the Lucas County (Ohio) Sheriff's Office, have pulled the guns from the street.

    Last week, Dolton, Ill., filed a class-action lawsuit against Taser, becoming the first police department to take legal action over what it described as Taser's exaggerated claims of safety. The city said it paid $8,572 for stun guns that are too dangerous to use on the street.

    Taser stock, which soared last year, dropped by a third this year after the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission and the Arizona Attorney General's Office announced separate inquiries into the company's claims of safety.

    The price of Taser stock was down about 26 cents on Friday, to $9.72 per share.

    Saturday, February 12, 2005
    Another Taser death

    Back to the Taser story. On the heels of a cardiac arrest in a 14 year old hit with a Taser (the boy is recovering) comes news of a death of a male "in his forties" after a Taser was used "to subdue him," also in Chicago. The local NBC station said police are conducting an "in-custody death investigation" (NBC5/WMAQ via Officer.com) and the police chief is putting a hold on a new order for 100 additional Tasers. On the same day the legal guardian of the 14 year old (The Department of Children and Family Services' guardianship administrator) filed a lawsuit on the boy's behalf in Cook country court (AP via TeamAmberAlert). Taser's stock price slumped.

    Meanwhile, Taser International, Inc. has issued a press-release contesting a CBS News report that an Air Force study found repeated shocks from a Taser led to evidence of cardiac damage in pigs. The scientific dispute, judging from the Taser press release, relates to two scientific issues: (1) whether the blood chemistry findings in pigs subjected to repeated Taser applications (reportedly 18 applications in 3 minutes done twice, separated by an hour) are relevant to actual use; and, (2) nor are the blood chemistry findings (elevated Troponin I) relevant nor were they statistically significant, in any case.

    The statistical significance objection is easily disposed of. Lack of statistical significance does not mean what the press release implies. A finding that a result is "not statistically significant" merely means you do not reject the null hypothesis (no elevated Troponin levels), not that you accept the null hypothesis, which is what Taser and its experts imply. The lack of statistical significance can easily be a consequence of a small sample size. Without seeing the actual numbers it is hard to judge. A common mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.

    The objections are also difficult to assess without seeing the actual paper, presented orally at a "Non-Lethal Technology and Academic Research (NTAR) symposium" in November, 2004. (I'd like to see more of these. I have been subjected to enough lethal academic research symposia.) While I am thus not sure what to think about elevated Troponin levels in repeatedly shocked pigs in an Air Force experiment, I surely do know what to think about the mounting evidence of sudden death in human beings after being Tasered once.

    I can't wait to see a press release saying the deaths are "not statistically significant" nor evidence of genuine damage.

    posted by Revere at 2/12/2005 07:30:00 AM
    (CNN) -- A 20-year-old man died Sunday after being shot with a Taser device during a scuffle with a sheriff's deputy in Maryland, a spokeswoman for the Frederick County Sheriff's Office said.
    art.taser.file.gi.jpg

    Amnesty International blames dozens of deaths on police use of stun guns.

    Cpl. Jennifer Bailey said deputies responding to a report of a fight in progress arrived at the location in Frederick, Maryland, just before 5 a.m. ET and found four people fighting.

    A deputy used a Taser device on one of the men, who fell unconscious, Bailey said.

    The man was taken to Frederick Memorial Hospital, where he was pronounced dead. His identity was not immediately released, pending the notification of his family.

    The deputy, who has not been identified publicly, has been placed on administrative leave with pay pending the completion of an investigation, Bailey said.

    Amnesty International has reported that, since June 2001, more than 150 people have died in the United States after being subdued with a stun gun. The organization has called for police departments to suspend use of the devices pending study of their possible risks.

    Few have done so, said Amnesty, which added that more than 7,000 of the nation's 18,000 law enforcement agencies use the devices.
    Don't Miss

    * Man's stun gun death caught on tape
    * Woman says she didn't deserve Taser treatment
    * TIME.com: Are Tasers being overused?

    Last month, a police officer in Vancouver International Airport in Canada used a Taser device on a distraught 40-year-old man on his first airplane trip outside Poland. He died.

    In a statement released Friday, Taser International cited the Vancouver case and said it "appears to follow the pattern of many in-custody deaths or deaths following a confrontation with police. Historically, medical science and forensic analysis has shown that these deaths are attributable to other factors and not the low-energy electrical discharge of the Taser."

    A bystander's video of the Vancouver incident that showed the victim continuing to struggle after being shot with the device "is proof that the Taser device was not the cause of his death," the company said on its Web site. Cardiac arrest caused by electrical current would have caused immediate death, it said.

    In addition, "the video clearly shows symptoms of excited delirium, a potentially fatal condition marked by symptoms of exhaustion and mania such as heavy breathing, profuse sweating, confusion, disorientation and violence toward inanimate objects," the company said.

    "We are taken aback by the number of media outlets that have irresponsibly published conclusive headlines blaming the Taser device and/or the law enforcement officers involved as the cause of death before completion of the investigation," said Tom Smith, the company's founder and chairman of the board.

    But Amnesty International, noting that coroners have identified Tasers as a contributory factor in more than 30 deaths, said such a link cannot be ruled out.

    The devices use compressed nitrogen to shoot two probes -- connected to the device by wire -- up to 35 feet away at speeds exceeding 100 mph.

    An electrical signal transmitted through the wires contacts the body or clothing, "resulting in an immediate loss of the person's neuromuscular control and the ability to perform coordinated action for the duration of the impulse," according to the company. E-mail to a friend E-mail to a friend

    All About TASER International Inc. Police Amnesty International

    But Amnesty International, noting that coroners have identified Tasers as a contributory factor in more than 30 deaths, said such a link cannot be ruled out.

    YOU WROTE

    "The TASER does not kill"


    MAYBE YOU GUYS SHOULD DO A LITTLE READING [}:)]
    TRY using google , there really is lots to read on the subject
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    wartigerwartiger Member Posts: 3,861
    edited November -1
    Again, I stand by that statement. You brought up articles from 3 years ago and since then, Taser has been cleared. Again, in reading your very well written articles, it mentions excited delerium, use of illegal drugs and other contributing factors. Thank you for putting that in print. Also, one article referred to "stun guns". It should be noted that there have been several types of "stun guns" used by L.E. Not just the TASER. Taser has started training officers to avoid multiple shocks as they "COULD" lead to prolonged injury or damage. Also, if one or two shocks have not succeeded in rendering a suspect compliant, then further restraint methods should be used. In other words, if the guy didn't learn from two, he won't learn from three. But, just like anything that the police use, TASERS will always have people calling for them to not be used. Pepper spray, ASP batons and even our handguns have had their nay-sayers and detractors. I guess when we live in a perfect world, the police can carry wild flowers and roses, until then....we use what we have to....
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    jimdeerejimdeere Member, Moderator Posts: 25,856 ******
    edited November -1
    What ever happened to just thumpin' 'em on the head? It worked for on me!
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    cowdoccowdoc Member Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Don't TAS me bro.

    tell you what you use one on me you best be prepared to have it shoved somewhere you won't like
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    Colonel PlinkColonel Plink Member Posts: 16,460
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by wartiger
    ... I guess when we live in a perfect world, the police can carry wild flowers and roses, until then....we use what we have to....

    And, until then, having "ridden the lightning", I will continue to "Yes sir" and "No sir" the cop at my driver's side window.

    Daddy taught me that.
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    wartigerwartiger Member Posts: 3,861
    edited November -1
    Surprisingly, a good ol' thump on the head will get you into more crap than a Taser. And one good jolt from a Taser and you won't be shovin' nothin' nowhere![:)]
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    cowdoccowdoc Member Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "And one good jolt from a Taser and you won't be shovin' nothin' nowhere!"

    Guess that just makes you one tuff SOB don't it? not
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    wartigerwartiger Member Posts: 3,861
    edited November -1
    No, I am a self-made SOB. Until you experience it, you wouldn't understand. And it was a joke, Bro.
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    minitruck83minitruck83 Member Posts: 5,369
    edited November -1
    Of course TASER is going to claim that their product is harmless!









    Didn't the Tobacco companies do(or still doing) the same? [}:)]

    Allen
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    dan kellydan kelly Member Posts: 9,799
    edited November -1
    if someone is zapped with a tazer they MIGHT die
    if a cop pulls a pistol and shoots someone in the chest they are going to be lucky IF they live...if it was someone who i love, i would prefer them to be hit with a tazer than a bullet..at least then they would have some chance .
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