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Firearms Sales to Californians

keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
edited July 2013 in General Discussion
OK, I hope this does not fall under the "whining" or "griping" category, but I just wanted to share this thought.
I have lived in CA almost all of my life, for over 45 years. I grew up shooting my pellet gun in my backyard, and hunting/shooting in the local mountains with my friends. I have been an NRA member as long as I can remember. I am very conservative, and am definitely amongst the minority in my thinking in CA.
That being said, I do get a little discouraged when I see a firearms dealer that will not sell to a Californian. I totally understand peoples dislike and downright hatred of CA for things that go on in the state, and I am like minded. I can see not selling to a CA State Government institution to send a message, but not selling to the individual is just hurting the cause (2nd amendment rights). I mean, if you think about it, if someone from CA is attempting to buy a firearm, it would make sense that THEY are firearms rights supporters. Not selling to them could potentially turn them off of getting involved in firearms (if they were new to the sport, hunting, etc.), punishes the individual for the State Governments actions and helps the state do what they want; prevent us from acquiring/owning firearms. The fact that they are interested in firearms tells you that they probably voted against the idiots in Sacramento as well.
Again, I totally understand the hatred of CA, I would move in a heartbeat if I could to a more firearms friendly, conservative state that respected our individual freedoms. But I can't right now. And I understand that there is additional paperwork to sell to a buyer in CA, but I had my FFL show me the paperwork and it is not that bad at all. If the paperwork is a pain, charge extra to ship to CA and explain why, but please don't refuse to sell to Californian's to spite the state. Remember, we are in this fight together and there is safety in numbers.
Just my 2 cents.
Ken

Comments

  • catgunguycatgunguy Member Posts: 6,089
    edited November -1
    I see your point keninsb . It is just that so many guns are not allowed to be sent there and woe to the dealer that makes a mistake and sends one that is not allowed.
    I just saw that you are new to the forum, Welcome.
  • k.stanonikk.stanonik Member Posts: 2,109 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ken,
    I understand where your coming from, i am starting to see it a lil in Illinois, my advise is that if you are interested in a firearm from the auction side, before you bid ask the seller if for a extra couple of dollars will they complete the sale.
    I have a feeling there is a member of the forums that will come along soon and tell you to move as that is their answer to every problem but stand your ground and talk to the sellers.
    I should also add that this is only recommended for California compliant firearms.
  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks for the warm welcome and responses guys. I really meant to just through this thought out there to get some feedback and start a discussion.
    There is a list of all current approved CA firearms HERE that I was advised by my FFL to use and do so all of the time. The list is pretty easy to use, but once in a while it can get tricky (it IS a Govt. site after all[:)]). If I were a seller, I would check the list and if I could not confirm that the firearm was legal I would ask the buyer to check with his FFL as to the legality of the firearms he/she is interested in to confirm that it is legal (I do that with my FFL all the time). Then I would let them know that if it gets to the FFL and is not legal, the buyer is responsible for the shipping costs to and from his FFL (I think that is fair). If their FFL is any good, he would check the firearms legality as soon as he received it and would ship it right back.
    I am really not trying to tell anyone what to do here, or complain about the hesitancy to ship to CA, I TOTALLY understand that. Like I said before, I would just like to get a conversation going. With all of the attacks against firearms enthusiasts going on out there, I am scared to death that our rights are being eroded a nibble at a time. One example is that since the firearms ban didn't work out as planned, the CA govt. is trying to:
    Make a 50% sales tax on ammo.
    Make ammo purchases like firearms purchases (B.G. check and all)
    And on and on. They passed a law that any new handgun presented by a manufacturer to be approved by the DOJ has to have "microstamping technology" (I guess the firing pin/striker has to leave an imprint on the primer/shell with the serial number of the firearm it was discharged from). They have also limited the amount of ammo that can be purchased at one time (I think 200rds combined).
    BTW, I heard about some companies (I think Barrett was one) refused to sell firearms to the city/state of NY because of their stance on gun ownership. THAT kind of thinking I can get behind. If they won't let us have it, they should not get it either.
    Again, just my 2 cents. Thanks again,
    Ken
  • JunkballerJunkballer Member Posts: 9,147 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm not a dealer but will say my heart hurts for Cal. residents like you and can feel your frustration thru 3000 miles. [:(]

    "Never do wrong to make a friend----or to keep one".....Robert E. Lee

  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Junkballer
    I'm not a dealer but will say my heart hurts for Cal. residents like you and can feel your frustration thru 3000 miles. [:(]


    Thanks JB!
  • FrancFFrancF Member Posts: 35,278 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Welcome- As a CA resident myself, I have been finding with some sellers it is more of a blanket statement because they do not know what is legal and what is not. I don't blame them for being Leary,

    But most will work with you if you show them what is legal and what is not.
  • e3mrke3mrk Member Posts: 1,851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I understand how You feel but You should take Your State back and change the Law's.
  • woodhogwoodhog Member Posts: 13,115 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    believe me, we've been trying. Most of the counties,especially to the North are republican.LA and SF are just a big nut to crack
  • idahoduckeridahoducker Member Posts: 740 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's not that sellers don't want to sell to Californians, they just don't want to deal with the extra BS. Their butt could be on the line so some say it's just best to be safe.
    I've worked in California a considerable bit in the last few years on construction projects and have met some very ignorant shooters and hunters. I've had people all but call me a liar when I tell them that in Idaho and most of the rest of the country we can just walk into a store, buy a gun, any gun and walk out with it that minute. Several guys I met simply did not know that. They are clueless regarding their rights and laws and just go along with whatever they're told. It seems to me that it would sure help your cause if you could get more of your fellow Californians involved. The only things that politicians care about are money and votes. Nothing else matters to them so educate your neighbors and change things.
  • TRAP55TRAP55 Member Posts: 8,270 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by e3mrk
    I understand how You feel but You should take Your State back and change the Law's.

    e3mrk, Let me turn that back around on you.
    I understand how You feel but You should take Your Country back and change the Law's.
    Is the light coming on?
    The deck is stacked against us here. We have the ballot initiative system here. We get it put on the ballot, it gets passed with a majority vote, and then some liberal POS judge over rules it.
    On top of that, the SEUI pretty much runs this state. Jerry Brown's first term as Governor set that up. We had a ballot initiative to put a stop to it. The union spent enough money to fund a small country to defeat it, and did. BTW, take a guess what union services the Diebold voting machines, you know, the same ones a 13yr old hacked?
    Brown himself is a prime example of the democrat controlled corruption. The voters passed a law limiting a Calif. Governor to two terms. When he ran for State Attorney General (after the Diebold machines were in place), by law he was ineligible. He had to have practiced law for a minimum of one year prior to the election. He didn't because he was the failed mayor of Oakland during that time. The Dems brushed all that aside, and he became the AG.
    Then he runs for a third term as Governor. Who rules that he can't run? Go figure, The State Attorney General! Landslide victories for all the democrats. The Police Officers Association and union even ran ads "AGAINST" left wing loon Kamala Harris to be the new AG, and she won anyhow.
    Now they have a super majority in the state senate, the SEUI union, Diebold voting machines, and the AG that should investigate and prosecute the corruption, is part of it.
    Did the light just get brighter? See any similarities between Calif and the current administration?
    Take a look at a map of Calif's voting districts from the last election. With the exception of a few blue districts, the rest of the state is red. The libs have gerrymandered the districts so they can't loose. Against the odds, we passed a ballot initiative to have an independent commission draw up the districts. The libs had their best people appointed to the commission. Suits were filed, and the lib judges ruled again.
    Businesses, and the people that could afford it, voted with their feet.
  • deerhntrdeerhntr Member Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Have the same problem here in new york, MOST firearms are still 100% legal here and there are some dealers that wont ship here, the reason is simple......they are doing so well right now that they dont need the sales of a few states that have our commie restrictions. They do not care if its legal or not they just cut us off in discust for our state, most dealers on here are NOT like that and respect the patriots who live here but the few that dont....have that right.
  • jev1969jev1969 Member Posts: 2,691
    edited November -1
    I too have been seeing New York added the "No Sales to ____" list. It is easy to tell someone to just move but sooner or later we are going to run out of gun friendly areas to move to. Not to mention any new federal laws that are just waiting to be rolled out after the next tradgedy. We are the proverbial frog in the pot of warming water. [V]
  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am really glad that I started this thread. This is the kind of conversation that I wanted to get started.
    I TOTALLY understand an FFL not wanting to take any chances selling to anyone in CA for apprehension of the laws. Frankly, I would be hesitant myself. But with the DOJ list of approved handguns, you can know which handguns are legal. And again, you can always check with the buyers FFL, or better yet let the buyer check with the FFL and contact you with the right information. An FFL in this state won't want to risk losing his license either.
    I also agree with the thoughts about changing our state and governments. But like TRAP55 said, it isn't easy, especially in this state. There are SO many liberals and conservatives are so outnumbered, that we are truly fighting an uphill battle (and I mean a STEEP hill!). I didn't vote for these jerks and chances are that anyone truly interested in firearms didn't either. That was my point in saying don't punish the resident, punish the state/govt. Like JEV1969 said, there is such a hatred for certain states like CA, that people don't want to ship there because they hate the state, not the shooter. Again, I don't blame anyone for their feelings in regards to the vitriol for the states, especially when states like mine (CA) vote idiots into office like Dianne Feinstein, Barbara "call me senator" Boxer, Loius Capps (my local hero[V]) amongst others. And they keep getting voted in over and over again. I have personally put out yard signs, walked the neighborhood handing out flyers, sent countless emails to politicians, and support MANY 2nd amendment rights organizations, but it has been and is extremely frustrating.
    I DO want to change our state and country BACK to what it once was. We don't need more laws and regulations, just ENFORECEMENT of the laws on the books. To me that is obvious, but to the liberals and progressives, ignorance is bliss.
    One final point I want to make: Don't think that it will never happen in your state. They are teaching liberal policies in colleges/universities, high schools and hell, it even starts in kindergarten. So the majority of the generations following mine are already brainwashed by the time they are eligible to vote. We have our 9 year old child in a private Christian school to avoid that. I also teach her about firearms at home. I just got certified as a Range Safety Officer and am pursuing certified firearms training credentials. My hope is to get some kids in the neighborhood and at my kids school interested in shooting. But again, this is CA so a lot of parents think it is illegal to say the word "gun". I will still try to educate them.
    Thanks again for hearing me out guys. And again, I am not trying to step on anyone's toes here, just wanted some other points of view and some dialogue regarding the subject.
    Ken
  • calrugerfancalrugerfan Member Posts: 18,209
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by idahoducker
    It's not that sellers don't want to sell to Californians, they just don't want to deal with the extra BS. Their butt could be on the line so some say it's just best to be safe.
    I've worked in California a considerable bit in the last few years on construction projects and have met some very ignorant shooters and hunters. I've had people all but call me a liar when I tell them that in Idaho and most of the rest of the country we can just walk into a store, buy a gun, any gun and walk out with it that minute. Several guys I met simply did not know that. They are clueless regarding their rights and laws and just go along with whatever they're told. It seems to me that it would sure help your cause if you could get more of your fellow Californians involved. The only things that politicians care about are money and votes. Nothing else matters to them so educate your neighbors and change things.


    The only one on the line is the CA FFL. I was in a gun store awhile back and the owner was talking to CA DOJ so they could come get a gun that wasn't California legal. I don't know why he didn't just offer to sell it out of state for the buyer or send it back to the seller's FFL for a least a partial credit, but either way, CA FFLs can purchase non compliant firearms but they can't sell them to "we the people."
  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You are seeing things from the wrong side.

    A seller in another state is not going to be transferring the gun to a "Californian", he will be transferring it to a CA dealer. Big difference, because he has to register with CA in order to do that. I spent an hour on Google & the CA AG's website, & couldn't figure out how to do that. If you want to do something positive to improve the situation, send a complaint to your legislators, or, at least, ask GB to post the instructions.

    Don't take what your governor & legislature does personally. They don't care about you, or want to punish you, they just want to take away your guns. Period. Microstamping is a hoax. The technology does not exist, & the gun makers will never adopt it. When the law takes effect, you won't be able to buy any new guns; eventually, you won't be able to buy used guns. That's the plan.

    Neal
  • calrugerfancalrugerfan Member Posts: 18,209
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by nmyers
    You are seeing things from the wrong side.

    A seller in another state is not going to be transferring the gun to a "Californian", he will be transferring it to a CA dealer. Big difference, because he has to register with CA in order to do that. I spent an hour on Google & the CA AG's website, & couldn't figure out how to do that. If you want to do something positive to improve the situation, send a complaint to your legislators, or, at least, ask GB to post the instructions.

    Neal


    Obviously I've never done it but in talking to other people, its not difficult and only takes a few minutes. But like I tell my clients, "everything is easier when you know what you're doing."
  • ruger41ruger41 Member Posts: 14,646 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The "registering" is only required of FFL's..not Joe Citizen selling a gun to someone in CA. Having said that it is someone's right to sell or not sell to people in any State if they wish. The list of do not sell to is about to get bigger when you add NY, CT & CO.

    As a former Californian I have nothing but contempt for the politicians of that state. EVERYTHING CA does, other states try to emulate...especially gun and environmental policy(get ready New Yorkers cuz your emissions requirements will now be just like CA and will cost you money.) CA is a lost cause to gun owners PERIOD. You will never be able to outpace the democrats due to the influx of them into CA, indoctrination in school and illegals with CA born babies. Bad thing is you can't just move to a normally gun friendly state anymore and just assume you will be safe..CO proved that.

    Ken all I can say is once I moved to WA it was like night & day. While a big portion of WA is liberal, it is much friendlier to gun owners than CA. Was so odd the first time I bought a gun in WA..there was no waiting period, DROS fee, proof of residence by showing a utility bill, proof of CA approved gun lock/safe, CA approved handgun list, ammo is on the shelf instead of locked behind a counter, and no handgun safety card to hand over.
  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ruger41, unfortunately I think you are absolutely right, and I feel EXACTLY like you do regarding CA politicians, politics and policies. I really fear for the direction of our country, not just in regards to our 2nd amendment rights, but the direction that our country is headed in general. The old saying is true, "What one generation tolerates, the next embraces". You are also right about CA setting the pace for the rest of the country. Some people are determined to repeat the same behavior even though it has not turned out good historically. CA wants to be like France, and the rest of the country takes CA's lead.
    I just want my country back.
    Ken

    BTW Here is the link to the page to CA enrollment letter for FFLs:
    http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcoverview
  • JunkballerJunkballer Member Posts: 9,147 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This goes to show there's places that even the power of the NRA is not enough, it all boils down to the peoples will and your fellow citizens are out voting you so you are the odd man out in your state so sadly your only choice is to move if firearms are that important of an issue to you. [:(!]

    "Never do wrong to make a friend----or to keep one".....Robert E. Lee

  • kissgoodnightkissgoodnight Member Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    But what are Brad And Angie up to today, or J.Lo? You know, the important things in life!
  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, J-Lo had to apologize for singing "Happy Birthday" to the president of Turkmenistan (apparently he is somewhat of a tyrant and murderer). I am not sure about Brad & Angie...

    Seriously though, I think our only hope is to educate the young-in's about firearms. Teach them that guns are not "bad". I am building a 10-22 for my daughter and hope to take some of the kids shooting to show them how much fun it is. Same is true of everything when it comes to the kids, they need to learn more from their parents than they do from their teachers (socially and morally speaking).
    BTW, the thing about J-Lo is true. Shows you how brain dead those Hollywood elitists are.
    Ken
  • chris8X57chris8X57 Member Posts: 1,215 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    keninsb and the rest of you Californians can never give up your fight.
    Your elected representatives are selling you out, as they are for the rest of this country. Boxer and Feinstein are pulling your state into the quagmire of Socialism.
    I lived in California for 20 years before I was lucky enough to move to Montana. Even here, however, we are seeing attempts at chiseling away the 2nd Ammendment and other freedoms.

    I do not sell many firearms, but I will not eliminate a potential buyer from California if the sale is legal for both parties.

    Hang in there, you live in a beautiful state.
  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by chris8X57
    keninsb and the rest of you Californians can never give up your fight.
    Your elected representatives are selling you out, as they are for the rest of this country. Boxer and Feinstein are pulling your state into the quagmire of Socialism.
    I lived in California for 20 years before I was lucky enough to move to Montana. Even here, however, we are seeing attempts at chiseling away the 2nd Ammendment and other freedoms.

    I do not sell many firearms, but I will not eliminate a potential buyer from California if the sale is legal for both parties.

    Hang in there, you live in a beautiful state.



    Thanks Chris. Wow, MONTANA!?! I can't believe that they are attacking the gunners up there (already). I mean I am worried that it will eventually happen in most states with the progressive movement, but cannot believe it is already starting in Montana.
    You live in a beautiful state too.
    Ken
  • MFIMFI Member Posts: 7,899 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Take a look at my auctions. I have been a seller here since 1999.. I am a FFL, I have a storefront and Im your neighborhood mom and pop guy. We sell to California and have for years. It is a peice of cake to register with the California DOJ and just 1-2 more pieces of paper to send a gun out there. Why should I limit my sales potential because its "harder" to sell to you. We in NYS are fighting the fight now with bullcrap laws and restriction after restriction. We are voting , sending buses to the state capital and registering eveybody who comes into the shop with the NRA. BUT it isnt enough becuase the liberals in NYC defeat us every time. Keep up your fight out there and if you or any of your friends need guns check my auctions or message me if you dont see it here. I can set up an auction for the gun you are looking for on Gun Broker..
  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    That is awesome! Thanks MFI!
    I am sorry to hear about the issues in NY. I think they are in competition with CA to see who can take our guns quicker with guys like Cuomo and Bloomberg leading the charge (while hiding behind their armed bodyguards). With the really big money that guys like Bloomberg and George Soros contribute to the leftists agenda, it makes it hard to keep up. I sure wish we had a GOOD communicator/speaker standing up for our rights like Ronald Reagan or Charleston Heston used to do.
    Ken
  • ChuckWBIVChuckWBIV Member Posts: 351 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You got my sympathy too there, but let the dealers / sellers keep it up.

    Then maybe the CA enthusiasts might start a war - the pen-and-paper legislation war, that's actually necessary to 'get it right'.

    I hate right wing talk radio. The show hosts take their fat paychecks to the bank instead of putting their name on voter ballots. Damn hypocrites.

    And the callers? They think they have done something for whatsoever the 'cause' is, since they got on, on a national radio show, and talked. PFFffttt...

    Anti-gun types LOVE talk radio. Because that's all it is. Talk.

    Talk goes away when the sound stops. Paper sticks around...

    Sir RANTS-A-LOT OUT!!!
  • dfletcherdfletcher Member Posts: 8,162 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I live in CA for now. I wasn't born here, don't particularly like the state even setting aside the terrible gun laws. When I retire it's back to New Hampshire for me. I disagree with the reflexive "I don't sell to CA" approach, but having said that can provide what I think is an insight as to why folks do it.

    The city of San Francisco is suing out of state vendors for shipping legal magazine parts kits to CA residents. Again, magazine parts kits are specifically legal in CA. CA DOJ has stated so. And yet the San Francisco City Attorney (who happens to belong to the same golf club as me) is suing on line vendors.

    On line vendors are being sued for selling a product CA DOJ has stated is legal in CA.

    Will he be successful? Who knows, but does it matter? These on line sellers now have to deal with an expensive lawsuit to include a request to turn over their mailing list of CA buyers. Perhaps after causing these companies to spend many thousands of dollars Herrera will offer to drop the suit in exchange for a "no sell" promise.

    So, I'm sympathetic to the "No CA sales" folks even though I don't like it & question whether it's the best approach.
  • wpagewpage Member Posts: 10,204 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Cali and NY are the poster states for whats going wrong in Amerika...

    You have my condolences. Best to move.
  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I totally understand your point DFletcher. But what do you expect from a city that has outlawed the owning of goldfish but allows public nudity (true in San Fran).
    These morons have no idea what the hell they are doing, they are just power hungry morons with dreams of the ultimate nanny state. Organizations like CalGuns and others fight a lot of legal battles to protect the 2nd amendment rights of Californians and others.
  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    You know one thing that did not occur to me (well really sink in anyways) until this afternoon was who all of these proposed CA taxes will really hurt; the poor and middle class. I was adding up how much I paid for a recent purchase, and after DROS, BG fee and tax it already added up to over 50% of the cost of the firearm. So my $300 Ruger 10-22 ends up costing:

    Firearm - $300
    S&H - $30
    B.G. Check - $25
    Transfer Fee - $75
    Tax - $32
    TOTAL - $462

    As a Californian, I have to pay state tax whether the firearm was purchased from within the state or not, so imagine now that I am wanting to purchase a $600 handgun. It would end up running me around $1,000 after taxes! On top of that they want to tax the hell out of ammo.
    So the wealthy will be ok in the future, they can afford to pay $1,000 for a $600 gun. As for the rest of us...
  • MFIMFI Member Posts: 7,899 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    NJ isn't far behind ..
    quote:Originally posted by wpage
    Cali and NY are the poster states for whats going wrong in Amerika...

    You have my condolences. Best to move.
  • A J ChristA J Christ Member Posts: 7,534
    edited November -1
    Another member here stated it well some time back.

    He said that refusing to sell to Californians is like beating your dog because you don't agree with the leash law. Or words to that effect.
  • MFIMFI Member Posts: 7,899 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I like the "beating the dog" thing, that is pretty funny.
    MFI, I checked out the links on your posts. I think being a part of a family owned business like that is awesome! I wish I had something like that to pass on to my daughter.
  • MFIMFI Member Posts: 7,899 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks .. I have 5 kids.. 4 daughters and one son..Son is interested as of now he is 23 .. [:(]
  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by MFI
    Thanks .. I have 5 kids.. 4 daughters and one son..Son is interested as of now he is 23 .. [:(]


    Hey, what is with the frowny face thingy? Having a kid that is interested in the business at age 23 should be a good thing, no?
  • MFIMFI Member Posts: 7,899 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry that should read ISNT interested .. [:(]
  • keninsbkeninsb Member Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by MFI
    Sorry that should read ISNT interested .. [:(]


    THAT I will never understand. I mean I know how "kids" these days are, but a 23 year old American Male NOT be interested in running a gun store? Does he watch Discovery or the History Channel? Jeez. Man, I would have loved to be in his shoes.
    Seriously, I know that NY like CA is a very difficult place to sell firearms in, but already having your place and being established for such a long period of time I would think that you would be "Grandfathered" in as far as most of the licensing, etc. is concerned. What a gift to pass on. No "Tom boys" amongst the 4 girls uh?
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