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Bert and other Winchester lovers

kimikimi Member Posts: 44,719 ✭✭✭
edited September 2008 in Ask the Experts
Bert:

Not long ago you made a post soliciting input about the two receiver sight holes on the left side of Model 94 Winchesters in an attempt to nail down exactly when this feature began to appear on the 94. Recently, I was discussing this issue with another party about the same time as I was taking pictures of my Model 64 Zipper which has this feature. Upon close examination one can see that there is no evidence of the feature ever having been used. However, my zipper has some special order features like sling swivels and the bolt peep, and it was made prior to WWII. Anyway this led to checking some online sites which turned up several Model 64's which were made prior to and shortly after 1940. These rifles showed no signs of ever having sights mounted to them either indicating that they were factory features. A brief discussion after this brought up the idea that the subject feature might have been one of special order for the Model 64 Winchesters.

Also, here is a very nice Winchester 94, flatband, that has this same feature with serial number 1,410,4xx which turned up - shown here: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=109882158. Do you think that the subject feature is factory? If so, we can take the last Polishing Room Record that David notes as 1,352,066 for the 1894 as being made in 1945, and then your estimate of 1,550,000 being the last one made in 1948, and then take this "flatband" with the two receiver holes which have them, and surmise that it left the factory in 1946 or 1947, which pre-dates the 1949-1950+ dates that seems to be the current thinking due to published data to date. Also, the 1946-1947 information is pretty much the exact years quoted to me by the fellow who sold me the Zipper when I was discussing this same issue on 94's with him years back. I hope this information helps with your ongoing Winchester research.
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    Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    First, thanks for the post... I really do like topics like this one[:p].

    In answer to your first question... quote:Do you think that the subject feature is factory? My answer is Yes, I do believe that it is factory work on that gun.

    quote:If so, we can take the last Polishing Room Record that David notes as 1,352,066 for the 1894 as being made in 1945, and then your estimate of 1,550,000 being the last one made in 1948, and then take this "flatband" with the two receiver holes which have them, and surmise that it left the factory in 1946 or 1947, which pre-dates the 1949-1950+ dates that seems to be the current thinking due to published data to date.

    I have slightly revised my year-ending serial number for 1948 to serial number 1,560,000. In fact, here are my serial number production estimates for the year 1946 through the year 1963 (this information will eventually appear in an update to the Sticky post at the top of the forum). The first column represents my estimate for each year, and the second column is Madis' published numbers. The last column is the difference between the two.

    Year ** Bert H. *** Madis *** Difference
    1946 ** 1411000 ** --- ?
    1947 ** 1470000 ** --- ?
    1948 ** 1560000 ** 1500000 ** +60,000
    1949 ** 1660000 ** 1626100 ** +33,900
    1950 ** 1760000 ** 1724295 ** +35,705
    1951 ** 1875000 ** 1819800 ** +55,200
    1952 ** 1960000 ** 1910000 ** +50,000
    1953 ** 2045000 ** 1999999 ** +45,001
    1954 ** 2100500 ** 2071100 ** +29,400
    1955 ** 2156000 ** 2145296 ** +10,704
    1956 ** 2211500 ** 2225000 ** -13,500
    1957 ** 2267000 ** 2290296 ** -23,296
    1958 ** 2322500 ** 2365887 ** -43,387
    1959 ** 2388000 ** 2410555 ** -22,555
    1960 ** 2453500 ** 2469821 ** -16,321
    1961 ** 2510000 ** 2500000 ** +10,000
    1962 ** 2564500 ** 2551921 ** +12,579
    1963 ** 2605000 ** 2586000 ** +19,000

    I came up with these numbers from known tidbits of information. For instance it is known that the following serial numbers were presented and or assembled in the listed years;

    1,000,000 was engraved and presented to President Calvin Coolidge in 1927
    1,500,000 was presented to President Harry S. Truman on May 8th, 1948
    2,000,000 was presented to President Dwight Eisenhower in 1953
    2,500,000 was assembled in 1961
    3,000,000 was assembled in 1970

    Based on the serial number 14104xx, I estimate that it was manufactured in very late 1946. So yes it does pre-date the 1949/50 timeframe by a few years, but at this point, I tend to believe that the receiver peep sight mounting holes were special ordered on that Carbine versus being a standard production feature. One thing is for sure... much more research is needed before any definitive answers can be developed[:0][:D]

    I have nearly completed a comprehensive update to my "Winchester Model 1894 facts" Sticky topic, but I am waiting for Dave Kennedy's article to hit the street (so that I can give him proper credit) before I post/publish my information.

    Please keep the questions, observations, and information coming![^]
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    kimikimi Member Posts: 44,719 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You're welcome Bert. It is an interesting topic for those of us caught up with this sort of information. I'll be looking forward to your update on the "sticky" and David's information too.
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