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Another question on C&R sales

the yooperthe yooper Member Posts: 275 ✭✭✭
edited February 2015 in Ask the Experts
I know that my C&R license allows me to buy and sell C&R approved weapons to improve or add to my collection, but cannot be "engaging in the business" etc etc. But what will happen in the foreseeable future when I begin to liquidate my collection and have 30-40 C&R firearms for sale on GB? I'll not be buying anything and they'll be spread out over a period of time, but still be offered for sale. Is BATF going to pick up on this somehow? Can I find myself in trouble with them (BATF)? I can find nothing in their convoluted rules about such an eventuality. Can anybody point me to something in their rules regarding this matter or should I just contact an auction house, pay their fees and be done with it? Thanks
yooper

Comments

  • JohnnyBGoodJohnnyBGood Member Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The term "engaged in the business," as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.

    [27 CFR 478.11]

    https://www.atf.gov/content/what-does-engaged-business-mean
  • the yooperthe yooper Member Posts: 275 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thank you JBG! That explains it very concisely. I wish I were more conversant with the Google functions on my computer.
    yooper
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 22,423 ******
    edited November -1
    The big issue with C&R sales is the purchase with the intention of resale. That can be hard to define, but the BATF looks at issues such as buying up used guns at garage sales and swap meets and then taking them to gun shows or listing them for sale on Gun Broker. There are also things like working as a C&R transfer-point for friends who do not have FFLs of their own, but will have a C&R holder receive the gun and then turn it over to the non licensee. I've had this happen to me on a few of my M1 sales where a buyer will have the Garand shipped to a buddy who has a C&R FFL. Not my business...But also not proper. There are also matters of ordering three surplus rifles (often there is a price break), such as Mosins, keeping the best looking example for yourself and then selling the other two. Even if you don't make a penny in profit, it could be argued that you purchased the rifles with the intention of reselling them.
  • bigboreisbestbigboreisbest Member Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a C&R, I feel that a C&R holder doesn't have the ability to call in for a NICS Check and that ATFE doesn't want the holder selling firearms routinely in face to face sales. If you sell a C&R firearm on line, such as GunBroker, you must ship it to an FFL Dealer where the purcasher will go to pick it up and submit to a NICS Check, I don't see where ATFE would give a hoot selling a firearm in such a manner.
  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,161 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm sorry Mr Best, but the information you have given is not accurate.

    First, the primary reason for having a C&R license is to permit you to obtain C&R firearms from anyone, anywhere in the country, without having to go through a dealer (your state & local laws permitting). No NICS must be run, because ATF did that before they approved issuance of your C&R license. You can obtain C&R firearms either in person or online, it makes no difference, as long as the seller is willing to sell to a C&R licensee.

    You can always sell a C&R firearm to improve your collection. When you do that, you have the same rights as a non-licensee; you must ship to a dealer or a C&R licensee. (There is one exception: you may sell a C&R firearm to a non-licensed resident of another state IF he appears before you at your residence.)

    You can sell a C&R firearm, OR ANY OTHER FIREARM, to a resident of your own state, either face-to-face or by carrier (state & local law permitting). The only federal law regulating such transfer is that you cannot knowingly transfer a firearm to a prohibited person, which may be difficult for you to know. (And, that is why I don't transfer to anyone other than a C&R or FFL.)

    Neal
  • bigboreisbestbigboreisbest Member Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    [V]Just to clarify my point. A C&R can ship a C&R firearm to an FFL or C&R without any NICS checks. If it is sold to someone without a license it must go through an FFL if the firearm is to be shipped. In many states you can do a face to face sale without any NICS checks, but as MYERS states you run the risk of selling it to someone ineligible to own a firearm. As for me, here in the "Kingdom of Cuomo" (NYS) all face to face sales must undergo a NICS check.
  • paperpaper Member Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by mark christian
    There are also matters of ordering three surplus rifles (often there is a price break), such as Mosins, keeping the best looking example for yourself and then selling the other two. Even if you don't make a penny in profit, it could be argued that you purchased the rifles with the intention of reselling them.




    Mark,
    I was inspected by BATFE (random inspection) 6 years ago and I had done exactly as you mentioned, buying a group of three rifles, and I had kept the best for myself and sold the other two to friends, for not one cent of profit..

    When I mentioned this to the agent he looked square into my eyes and said "That's collecting, and you're only making your collection as good as possible with that action."

    I'd only done it a couple times, and since then I don't ever sell to anyone unless they have a FFL so there's an undeniable paper trail.
  • fideaufideau Member Posts: 12,023
    edited November -1
    I don't think I have ever sold a C&R firearm that I haven't had for at least a couple of years. The thing I hate in my state, selling any handgun, C&R of not, to a resident requires the buyer to have a handgun permit. Sucks.
    Doubt it happens in most cases but it is state law.
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