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Define an SBR

tmcbptmcbp Member Posts: 25 ✭✭
edited July 2010 in Ask the Experts
Can someone please explain to me why the Rossi Ranch Hand is not classified as an SBR, if the barrel is 12" long and overall length is 24"? I was under the impression that for NFA purposes, anything shorter than a 16" barrel, was indeed that, an SBR. Please excuse my ignorance, that is why I am asking..

Comments

  • fordsixfordsix Member Posts: 8,722
    edited November -1
    with the short butt stock it is classified as a pistol...now add a full sized butt stock and your in trouble as a SBR
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,511 ******
    edited November -1
    There is no butt stock so it cannot be a rifle. It's barrel length of 12 inches, the fact it is rifled and it's configuration prevent it from being classified as an Any Other Weapon. End result...It is a pistol.
  • NwcidNwcid Member Posts: 10,674
    edited November -1
    For the same reason your 1911, or any other common pistol, is not a SBR. It is made from a receiver that has NEVER had a butt stock on it. If you add a butt stock to either gun OR if either has EVER had a butt stock on it then it would be an SBR.

    If you built that same gun, Rossi Ranch, from a cut down rifle then it WOULD be an SBR. But again if the receiver has NEVER had a butt stock on it then it can be built into a pistol.

    The Rossi Ranch does NOT have a butt stock, short or otherwise. IF it had a butt stock, short or otherwise, then it would be a SBR or Rifle depending on barrel length. What is on the Rossi Ranch is nothing more then a grip.




    quote:Originally posted by quickmajik
    a weapon designed to use pistol or rifle or heavy machine gun ammo with a stock and barrel short thern 16".

    and SBS is a shotgun with a stock and barrel shorter then 18".
    I though "shhhhh! dont post anything incriminating on the web" was the watch word?



    Sorry Quick but it does not HAVE to have a stock on it to be an SBR/SBS. If the receiver has EVER had a stock on it then EVER has a barrel less then 16/18" on it then it would be an SBR/SBS.
  • MrM1A1MrM1A1 Member Posts: 2,762 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
    For the same reason your 1911, or any other common pistol, is not a SBR. It is made from a receiver that has NEVER had a butt stock on it. If you add a butt stock to either gun OR if either has EVER had a butt stock on it then it would be an SBR.


    What about the Hi-power 9mm that is slotted for a buttstock, or German Lugers with the same?? I have an Inglis Hi Power with original buttstock. From your description my Hi Power is a SBR.
  • iwannausernameiwannausername Member Posts: 7,131
    edited November -1
    It would be but they (and the broomhandles) are exempted under C&R status

    quote:Originally posted by MrM1A1
    quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
    For the same reason your 1911, or any other common pistol, is not a SBR. It is made from a receiver that has NEVER had a butt stock on it. If you add a butt stock to either gun OR if either has EVER had a butt stock on it then it would be an SBR.


    What about the Hi-power 9mm that is slotted for a buttstock, or German Lugers with the same?? I have an Inglis Hi Power with original buttstock. From your description my Hi Power is a SBR.
  • beantownshootahbeantownshootah Member Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rossi Ranch Hand
    ranchhand.jpg

    Because it doesn't have a real stock and never had one, its a pistol.

    Note that if you took off the pistol grip to put on a REAL rifle pistol grip/stock, then this WOULD be a short-barrelled rifle.

    Also note that the Federal rules concerning AOWs and SBRs don't necessarily make a lot of sense. Some of these rules aren't actually law, but are interpretations issued by the BATFE.

    quote:Originally posted by MrM1A1
    What about the Hi-power 9mm that is slotted for a buttstock, or German Lugers with the same?? I have an Inglis Hi Power with original buttstock. From your description my Hi Power is a SBR.

    You're right, but there is a specific [edit: FEDERAL] carve-out for these particular older guns as military curios.

    If you built a re-creation of your stocked Inglis Hi-Power using a new production gun it *would* be an SBR.

    Edit: Mark is correct. To clarify, the FEDERAL gov't exempts CERTAIN lugers and Hi-Powers from restriction as short-barelled rifles. That doesn't mean your STATE or LOCAL gov't will do that too.

    Here are some key highlights from Section III of the Federal C&R list

    quote:Belgian, Pre-war mfd. Hi Power pistols, in cal. 9mm having tangent sights graduated to 500 meters, slotted for shoulder stock, having S/Ns of less than 47,000 without letter prefixes or suffixes and accompanied by original Belgian mfd. detachable wooden flat board type shoulder stocks.

    Beretta, model 1923, semiautomatic pistol, in cal. 9mm Kurz (.380), accompanied by original Italian detachable leather and metal holster/shoulder stock.

    Bergmann-Bayard, model 1908, Pistol, 9mm Bergmann-Bayard with shoulder stock and 4" barrel.

    Bergmann, Mars model 1903, self loading pistol, w/accompanying shoulder stock.

    British PIAT (Projector, Infantry, Anti-tank).

    Browning, model 1903, Pistol, 9mm Browning Long, with shoulder stock and 5" barrel.

    Browning Hi power pistols, 9mm having tangent sights graduated to 500 meters, slotted for shoulder stock, having S/Ns less than T200,000 etched vertically on the right side of slide, barrel, or frame and bearing crest of Emirates of Muscat & Oman, or mirror image of such crest, accompanied by original detachable wooden flat board shoulder stocks.

    Clement, Pistol Carbine, cal. 9mm.

    Chinese mfd. copies of the Mauser model 1896, semiautomatic pistol, produced prior to 1945, any cal., accompanied by original Chinese mfd. detachable wooden holster/shoulder stocks.

    Canadian, Inglis No. 1, Chinese Contract, Hi Power pistols, cal. 9mm parabellum, having a tangent rear sight adjustable from 50 to 500 meters, slotted for shoulder stock, and having the letters C in the S/N and accompanied by original Canadian mfd. detachable wooden
    holster/shoulder stock.

    Luger, DWM Pistol, model 1900, 1902, or 1906, in 7.65 Luger or 9mm parabellum cal., having the American Eagle chamber crest, and barrel lengths of either 4" or 4-3/4", with original detachable Ideal shoulder stocks and Ideal frame grips.

    DWM Luger, Original models 1904, 1906, 1908, 1914, and 1920. Naval pistols in 9mm parabellum or 7.65mm cal., in both the Commercial and Naval military varieties; in both altered and unaltered barrel lengths in the model 1904 and in both altered and unaltered safety markings in the model 1906; with original board-type detachable shoulder stocks bearing brass or iron discs, with or without markings, or, if without brass or iron discs, being of the Navy flat board-type. This exemption applies only to the listed Naval Luger
    pistols if mated to the Naval Luger stock and will not apply if the Naval Luger pistol is mated to the Artillery stock. The Naval stock has an overall dimension of 12-3/4", a rear
    width of 4-5/8", a front width of 1-1/2", a rear thickness of 9/16", and a front thickness of l-3/16".

    Luger, DWM Stoeger model 1920 and 1923, semiautomatic pistols in 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum cal., in barrel lengths of 8, 10, 12, and 12-1/2", having either American Eagle chamber crests and/or Stoeger frame and/or upper receiver marks, having either standard, Navy or artillery rear sights, having extractors marked either "Loaded" or "Geladen" and having frame safety markings of either "Gesichert" or "Safe," together w/original commercial flat board stocks of the artillery type, which bear no S/Ns or military proof marks; may include a "Germany" marking.

    Luger, DWM Pistol-Carbine, model 1920, 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum cal., with accompanying original commercial type shoulder stock, with or without forearm piece, having barrel lengths of 11-3/4" to less than 16".

    Luger, German model 1914, Artillery model pistol, mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having chambers dated 1914 -1918, bearing Imperial German military proofmarks & accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks.

    Luger, model 1902, Pistol-Carbine, 7.65mm Luger with original commercial type shoulder stock and forearm and 11-3/4" barrel.
    Luger, Persian (Iranian) Artillery model, pistols, as mfd. by Mauser prior to 1945, accompanied by the original artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stock, bearing a S/N in Farsi characters stamped into the wood on the left side.

    Luger, semiautomatic pistol, certain variations with Benke-Thiemann folding shoulder stock.
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,511 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by MrM1A1
    quote:Originally posted by Nwcid
    For the same reason your 1911, or any other common pistol, is not a SBR. It is made from a receiver that has NEVER had a butt stock on it. If you add a butt stock to either gun OR if either has EVER had a butt stock on it then it would be an SBR.


    What about the Hi-power 9mm that is slotted for a butt stock, or German Lugers with the same?? I have an Inglis Hi Power with original buttstock. From your description my Hi Power is a SBR.


    A HP with the stock attached is a SBR:
    [img][/img]T-SeiesHighpower.jpg
    [img][/img]T-Serieswithstock.jpg

    You have taken a handgun and added a butt stock which now makes it a rifle. Since the barrel is under 16" it becomes a SBR. If you add a 16 inch barrel and the over all length is over 26" then it is a rifle.
    Certain specific combinations of pistols with very specific shoulder stocks have exempted from the National Firearms Act by the BATFE due to their collector status. State laws may well still consider them to be SBR and restricted so care is the watch word!
  • quickmajikquickmajik Member Posts: 16,324
    edited November -1
    a weapon designed to use pistol or rifle or heavy machine gun ammo with a stock and barrel short thern 16".

    and SBS is a shotgun with a stock and barrel shorter then 18".
    I though "shhhhh! dont post anything incriminating on the web" was the watch word?

    You are right Mark... cant just make an aow out of a stocked shotgun for the reasons you state....
  • givettegivette Member Posts: 10,886
    edited November -1
    Prior post:
    "It would be but they (and the broomhandles) are exempted under C&R status"

    Actually, they are exempted because they have been removed from NFA status.

    They are, and will always fall under C&R status. Even back when they were also listed as NFA. Think of a gun on two lists simultaneously.

    Thompson SMG's are a case in point. They are positively, definately C&R..but are also NFA.

    I know, I just nit-picked. It's getting late. Best, Joe
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