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C&R ??

MIKE WISKEYMIKE WISKEY Member Posts: 9,304 ✭✭✭
edited June 2015 in Ask the Experts
I've listed this rifle and several viewers asked if I'd take a 03 ffl, from everthing I've been able to find this is not a C&R firearm. what say you??
http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=490546119

Comments

  • rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,533 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Being it's been sporterized, I don't believe it qualifies as being C & R.
  • Spider7115Spider7115 Member, Moderator Posts: 29,604 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
    Being it's been sporterized, I don't believe it qualifies as being C & R.

    Rufe-snow is correct. Sporterization removed it from the "collectible" category and it now requires an FFL dealer and a 4473. It must be in its original military configuration to qualify as a C&R.
  • nmyersnmyers Member Posts: 16,375 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I hate to say it, but you are correct.

    ALL guns, not just military issue guns, are removed from the C&R category if they are not substantially origin in appearance.

    Installation of a commercial sporter stock on a military rifle means that it must go to an FFL.

    Neal
  • mrs102mrs102 Member Posts: 917 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Even if it's 50 or more years old?
  • Ray BRay B Member Posts: 11,822
    edited November -1
    To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
    (a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

    Copied from CFRs re C&R description. How does the 1903 not fit this description?
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 23,026 ******
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Ray B

    To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
    (a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

    Copied from CFRs re C&R description. How does the 1903 not fit this description?


    Ray, ATF Ruling 85-10 addresses that:

    In classifying firearms as curios or relics under this regulation, ATF has recognized only
    assembled firearms as curios or relics. Moreover, ATF's classification of surplus military
    firearms as curios or relics has extended only to those firearms in their original military
    configuration. Frames or receivers of curios or relics and surplus military firearms not in
    their original military configuration were not generally recognized as curios or relics by
    ATF since they were not of special interest or value as collector's items More
    specifically, they did not meet the definition of curio or relic in section 178.11 as firearms
    of special interest to collectors by reason of a quality other than is ordinarily associated
    with sporting firearms or offensive or defensive weapons. Furthermore, they did not
    ordinarily have monetary value as novel, rare, or bizarre firearms; nor were they generally
    considered curios or relics because of their association with some historical figure, period
    or event.

    If the rifle in question could have some special interest to collectors other than those ordinarily associated
    with ordinary sporting firearms, was somehow novel, rare, or bizarre, or associated with some historical figure, period or event, it might be classified as a Curio and Relic.


    quote:Originally posted by mrs102
    Even if it's 50 or more years old?


    It makes no difference; once it has been sporterized it becomes just another hunting rifle. This also applies to non military rifles. A Winchester Model 70 made in 1960 is a C&R, but if you cut the barrel down to 16 inches and fit it with a folding stock to make a sort of explorers rifle (I've seen these) it will lose it's C&R classification.
  • slumlord44slumlord44 Member Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Definitely no longer a C&R.
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 23,026 ******
    edited November -1
    We've gone over this issue so many times before...

    The purpose of a C&R FFL is not for individuals to purchase sporting arms (long guns or pistols) without going through a dealer, it was never intended to do that. That's why there is the inclusion of: Firearms of special interest to collectors by reason of a quality other than is ordinarily associated with sporting firearms included in the definition of a Curio and Relic. A sporterized military rifle is just another sporting rifle, unless someone can demonstrate that it is of special interest to collectors.

    Understand that the BATFE does not paint collector with the same broad brush that gun owners use. Many so called gun collections are actually accumulations of firearms, including many made up of modern sporting arms.

    Let's put it this way: I have a roll of 100 "Forever" postage stamps sitting here on my desk. Do I have a stamp collection? I think not.
  • MIKE WISKEYMIKE WISKEY Member Posts: 9,304 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    IF the rifle had been 'customised' by, say, Segley or Hoffman or G&H then sure I'd take a 03.
  • babunbabun Member Posts: 11,497
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by MIKE WISKEY
    IF the rifle had been 'customised' by, say, Segley or Hoffman or G&H then sure I'd take a 03.


    +1000

    Years ago I had a similar 03 rifle done up like yours. My FFl
    had a visit from the Batf while I was there. Nice guy, BTW.
    I asked the same question, is my gun C&R?
    His answer was by the letter of the law, NO. But he added, that type of gun is not high on their list of offenses. The BATF
    uses that law as a tool in some cases.
    The analogy was, If you have a crowbar and screwdriver in your pocket and you are walking down the street, you are not committing
    a crime. If you get caught in a house, 3:oo in the AM, filling a pillow case with silver ware and jewelry, with the same crowbar in your pocket, you will get charged with "possession of buggery tools"
    which is a crime.
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