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AR15 Semi to Full Auto

floorguy24floorguy24 Member Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited August 2015 in Ask the Experts
If a semi auto AR15 (.223/5.56) was to be converted to full auto, what all is involved? I'm assuming the bolt carrier needs to be switched out, but does the trigger group/assembly need to be switched out as well?

Comments

  • rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,649 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Because of legal considerations. This is a subject not usually discussed on this site.

    Come back, after buying a papered/licensed AR or auto sear.
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    There were three ways to do it:

    1)Drill the receiver and then add all of the M16 parts needed to create a new machine gun.

    2) Use what was known as a Drop In Auto Sear. This little unit stood in for the actual GI auto sear. Colt later added an number of internal receiver blocks to defeat the DAS in later AR-15 rifles.

    3) Use what was known as a Lightening Link. This was another drop in device, which looked something like a cut-out piece of a band saw blade, and allowed for full auto fire ONLY. It did not require the use of any full auto parts, in fact installing full auto parts would make the unit fail to function.

    Building a new machine gun private individual has been prohibited since 1986 so you'd need to buy a registered Drop In Auto Sear or registered Lightening Link to make the conversion.

    As Rufe already mentioned: We don't go into the exact details of machine gun conversions in this forum.

    I will also add that we are not going to discuss the legality of the 1986 ban on machine gun manufacture. That belongs in the General Discussion or Gun Rights Forum.
  • Ray BRay B Member Posts: 11,822
    edited November -1
    Back in the day when I carried one everyday, I considered such a POS that it never occurred to me that forty years later they would still be around. That said, I do wonder what changes occurred when flipping the safety a full 180 degrees that allowed the gun to shoot full auto. the M14 I fully understood how it worked, but then, it was a real rifle.
  • floorguy24floorguy24 Member Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have zero interest in actually doing this. I posted this out of sheer curiosity and nothing more. There are way too many legal issues if one were to try and actually do this. Sorry if this is raising eyebrows, my bad. Hopefully a Moderator can close/lock this topic I posted.
  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The exact technical details on this conversion -- and other conversions of semi-autos to full-auto -- are available online and in print from many sources.

    If you understand how a semi-auto works, it's not that difficult to figure out how one could build a full-auto. (I remember looking at my Ruger Mini-14 when I was just a teenager and thinking about what could be done to make it full-auto. At the time, I didn't know Ruger made a full-auto version; I learned later their full-auto version design was very similar to my thoughts on about how it could be done.)

    So long as the 1st Amendment still stands, there is nothing illegal about discussing/describing this. (And I'm not quite sure why the "squeamishness" is being expressed about "not discussing it" here.)
  • tsr1965tsr1965 Member Posts: 8,682 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Ray B
    Back in the day when I carried one everyday, I considered such a POS that it never occurred to me that forty years later they would still be around. That said, I do wonder what changes occurred when flipping the safety a full 180 degrees that allowed the gun to shoot full auto. the M14 I fully understood how it worked, but then, it was a real rifle.


    Switching the fire control to full auto, engaged the auto sear. It itself was activated, when it was in contact with the M16 bolt carrier. It delayed the drop of the hammer, until the bolt was in full battery, because just premature releasing the disconnector to let the hammer ride the bolt back to battery, wouldn't detonate the primer.
  • CaptFunCaptFun Member Posts: 16,678 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by competentone
    The exact technical details on this conversion -- and other conversions of semi-autos to full-auto -- are available online and in print from many sources.

    If you understand how a semi-auto works, it's not that difficult to figure out how one could build a full-auto. (I remember looking at my Ruger Mini-14 when I was just a teenager and thinking about what could be done to make it full-auto. At the time, I didn't know Ruger made a full-auto version; I learned later their full-auto version design was very similar to my thoughts on about how it could be done.)

    So long as the 1st Amendment still stands, there is nothing illegal about discussing/describing this. (And I'm not quite sure why the "squeamishness" is being expressed about "not discussing it" here.)





    The GunBroker.com user agreement that you agreed to when signing up for this website and by using this forum specifically prohibits unlawful activities. See below. Using this forum is a privilege and you will loose that privilege if you continue to push the boundaries. Am I perfectly clear?


    3. Prohibited Listings. You must have the legal right to sell any Items you list on our Site. You may not list the following on our Site: (a) live animals; (b) human body parts (e.g., relics, skulls, human remains or other parts); (c) bulk email lists; (d) illegal weapons, instructions, kits, plans, or parts designed to illegally convert firearms to full-auto fire; (e) instructions, kits, plans, or parts designed to illegally build silencers; (f) instructions on how to build bombs or explosives; (g) unauthorized replicas, (h) items containing faces, names or signatures of any person unless authorized by that person; (i) hazardous, restricted or toxic materials or substances; or (j) multi-level marketing or similar programs. You may not list any Item that would cause us or you to violate any applicable law, statute, ordinance or regulation. You may not list any Item that is stolen or counterfeit. Your Listing may not be defamatory, libelous, threatening or harassing; and it may not contain obscenity or child pornography.
  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by CaptFun
    quote:Originally posted by competentone
    The exact technical details on this conversion -- and other conversions of semi-autos to full-auto -- are available online and in print from many sources.

    If you understand how a semi-auto works, it's not that difficult to figure out how one could build a full-auto. (I remember looking at my Ruger Mini-14 when I was just a teenager and thinking about what could be done to make it full-auto. At the time, I didn't know Ruger made a full-auto version; I learned later their full-auto version design was very similar to my thoughts on about how it could be done.)

    So long as the 1st Amendment still stands, there is nothing illegal about discussing/describing this. (And I'm not quite sure why the "squeamishness" is being expressed about "not discussing it" here.)





    The GunBroker.com user agreement that you agreed to when signing up for this website and by using this forum specifically prohibits unlawful activities. See below. Using this forum is a privilege and you will loose that privilege if you continue to push the boundaries. Am I perfectly clear?


    3. Prohibited Listings. You must have the legal right to sell any Items you list on our Site. You may not list the following on our Site: (a) live animals; (b) human body parts (e.g., relics, skulls, human remains or other parts); (c) bulk email lists; (d) illegal weapons, instructions, kits, plans, or parts designed to illegally convert firearms to full-auto fire; (e) instructions, kits, plans, or parts designed to illegally build silencers; (f) instructions on how to build bombs or explosives; (g) unauthorized replicas, (h) items containing faces, names or signatures of any person unless authorized by that person; (i) hazardous, restricted or toxic materials or substances; or (j) multi-level marketing or similar programs. You may not list any Item that would cause us or you to violate any applicable law, statute, ordinance or regulation. You may not list any Item that is stolen or counterfeit. Your Listing may not be defamatory, libelous, threatening or harassing; and it may not contain obscenity or child pornography.



    You've quoted me, so I'm guessing you are directing your comment at me. There is a big difference between a scientific discussion about firearm technology and "giving instructions" to build "illegal" firearms. There is nothing secret about the functioning of full-auto firearms, every single technical detail is in the public domain and readily available to anyone interested. I understand if you don't want technical details posted here; it is a private forum, you can make what rules you want. My point is: there is nothing illegal about the plans, or possessing and communicating the knowledge.

    I'll also note, I find it kind of funny to read the rules against counterfeit goods when GunBroker has been informed multiple times about a GB seller who has built his entire business selling counterfeit goods on your site, yet nothing has been done about his activities. It would appear there is not much enforcement of that rule.
  • beantownshootahbeantownshootah Member Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Obviously, this sort of conversion is illegal in the USA. Not only that, but just owning by themselves non functional machine gun parts ITSELF is illegal in many places.

    CaptFun reminds us that listing full auto conversion manuals for sale is explicitly against GB.com policy. I don't recall ever seeing an explicit rule against doing so, but of convention, its considered inappropriate to discuss specific details of how to to do this in public forums. Not so much because the actual discussion is itself illegal, but just because discussing potentially illegal activity reflects poorly on participants and the board itself.

    Personally speaking, I've got near zero interest in full auto guns (and less than zero in illegal conversions). IMO these are basically like the "Cuban cigars" of firearms. . .most of the appeal is because they're banned and scarce, rather than because of any value intrinsic the item itself.

    That said, I still think there is potential academic value in knowing how the full auto guns operate and by extension how these sorts of conversions COULD be done. That's both to contribute to your general gunsmithing/mechanical undestanding of how the guns were designed to operate, and also to help explain how the LEGAL guns are configured to help prevent this type of conversion. EG, ever wonder why there are extra "shelves" inside your receiver, or what a full auto bolt carrier actually looks like? What's a disconnector for? Etc. If you're in a position where you might need to actually service full auto guns (eg for police or military), these are good things to know.

    Furthermore, believe it or not, there are still places in the civililzed world where it is legally permissible to convert semi-auto guns to full auto for civilian ownership. For example, I'm told you can do this legally in Switzerland and the Czech Republic, and people actually do so. So if you were in one of those places, the details would be more germane.

    Lastly, there are still any number of shady places around the world, where military type guns are readily available and there is effectively no controlling legal authority preventing this type of conversion.


    Edit: Responding indirectly to above, I don't think I'm giving away any "State Secrets" by pointing out that explicit instructions on how to convert virtually every common semiauto gun to full auto are readily available in both print and electronic form, including in "certain places" that nominally restrict it (cough cough). There always seems to be some clown selling these manuals at gunshows, usually in CD-ROM form. I've seen print versions for sale on that E auction site, etc.

    Not only is this not "secret" information, but for some of these conversions just a normal free internet search will give any interested party lots of information. If you know where to look, you can download the explicit manuals instantly.

    I think the limiting factor here, OTHER than most people's desires to stay out of jail is that most true full auto conversions aren't trivial. IE, just making a gun go "bang" more than once per trigger pull might not be so hard for CERTAIN guns. EG, certain fairly common malfunctions can make guns "double" (or more).

    But making a gun reliably and safely fire full auto (let alone either full or semi on demand, which in reality is far more useful), typically requires either legally restricted and/or hard to obtain parts, potentially difficult fabrication of same, and/or not necessarily all that easy modification of the underlying gun. IE, doing it "for real" may not be as easy as many think.
  • mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    This is a private forum, the Captain has spoken on the matter, and since we've reached the magic number 10, that is that.

    Do NOT open a part two in order to continue any argument.
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