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Top Break technology

bobguzbobguz Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
edited September 2002 in Ask the Experts
I own several different top break revolvers. I've looked very closely at all of them and have decided that the rib and barrel and back strap are one, solid piece. What I'd like to know is how did S&W, H&R, Iver Johnson and others manufacture these guns - in great numbers - back 100 years ago?? Was ths part milled or ground from a casting? Anybody know the history of this gun making?

bobguz

Comments

  • AdamsQuailHunterAdamsQuailHunter Member Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hello "Dr." bobguz

    Yes, I know you rather be just "Bob", but you deserve the title.

    I can't answer your question, but I have a couple of S&W that belonged to my grandmother and great aunt, their "house-guns". I will be interested to see the answers you get.

    Too bad you are not closer by, I would invite you to an old fashion "Florida Cracker Labor Day Weekend" get together in one of the hammocks of the "Big-Bend" area.

    Best Regards To You And Yours
  • Der GebirgsjagerDer Gebirgsjager Member Posts: 1,673 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    These were forgings that had everything milled away that didn't look like the desired part. The casting of gun parts was an insufficiently developed technology during that time period.
  • bobguzbobguz Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't know much about forging - except that blacksmiths do it under an oak tree by swinging a hammer. Is S&W forging their new, top break Schofield in the same way??

    And Hi Quail Hunter. Yeah and my youngest up in Virginia's going dove hunting Monday.

    bobguz
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's hard to tell because all surfaces are finish machined but the frames were cast for sure, except by Colt and S&W who forged them. If they had the technology to cast a frame they could certainly cast a barrel. Since the bluing on these guns match between barrel and frame, I would assume it's the same composition so I'm inclined to believe the the cheaper top break revolvers had cast barrels. Some of the old suicide specials like the Baby Hammerless were cast in one piece including the barrel.
    Many of the first 1847 Colt Walker Dragoon barrels burst in the field and those damaged pistols that could be shortened,were. I suspect those barrels were cast.
  • Der GebirgsjagerDer Gebirgsjager Member Posts: 1,673 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Forging is done by taking a piece of white-hot steel and hammering it into a shape. You have probably seen the term "drop forged" especally in relation to tools. The hot steel is dropped into a receptacle internally bearing the general shape of the desired part. It is then struck by a very powerful electric or hydraulic hammer the face of which bears a reverse shape. The cooled forging is then machined to its final shape. There are variations on this theme, including repeated strikes of the hammer to form a smaller piece of steel into an elongated part, and cold forging. This is very much like your illustration of the blacksmith. 19th and early 20th century technology did not permit the casting of high grade steel in a steel mold as the molten steel would melt and deform the mold into which it was poured. Lesser strength metals such as zinc, brass, and low grade iron could be molded in iron or steel molds. Steel casting came into its own in the middle 20th century with the development of the "lost wax process" which involves making the image of the desired part in wax, which is repeatedly dipped in ceramic to make a mold. The wax is melted out and the ceramic filled with molten metal. When cool, the ceramic is broken away leaving the casting of the part which is then finished machined. The process has been perfected to the point that many items can be cast to finish or near finish specifications. Ruger was a pioneer in this field, and many of their gun parts are made in this manner. Some of the early machining that leaves us wondering today was made possible by European immigrant labor and $0.10 per hour wages. It was claimed that the advantage of forging (before the lost wax process) was that the molecules were aligned in one direction resulting in a stronger part. Modern casting methods have proven to produce parts as strong as forgings for most gun purposes.
    As for S&W's Schofield.....I don't know, but you might give them a call and ask. Forged or cast, I'm sure it's a good gun. Have you looked at the Schofields made by Aldo Uberti? Could be some collusion.
  • rhmc24rhmc24 Member Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Interesting that it took so long to be able to cast steel by the lost wax process because lost wax casting dates back centuries in bronze casting.
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Lost wax casting is as old as history and so is hollow casting.
    Investment casting is todays' refinement of this process. Ruger as well as other manufacturers in Spain and Italy have for some years supplied the U.S. gun industry with high quality steel investment castings. The investment casting and pressure casting methods were a breakthrough since steel has been difficult to cast in thin sections by traditional methods.
    To determine if your revolver frame was cast, remove the grips and look inside. A rough texture except in the areas of hammer & trigger bosses and hand, bolt and hammer spring cutouts are evidence of a baked sand core from the sand casting process. Such an examination of cheaper revolvers, single and double barrel shotgun receivers and other pistols such as the Stevens Tip Up going back to the 1870's will also show them to be cast. I have a few oldies and the frames are all castings.How else in the absence of a sideplate are they going to get inside to machine the interior features?
    There is no way that investment castings can replace a properly made steel forging in highly stressed applications. To assume so in critical applications might really spoil your afternoon.
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