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Ammo ??

Da-TankDa-Tank Member Posts: 4,074
edited September 2004 in Ask the Experts
Picked up a round today, I've never seen one quite like this one.
It looks like a .45 long colt but its about 3/8 inch shorter in the case. Marked on the rim Peters Co. .45 Govt. This is a rimed round.
What, when? Thank you

Comments

  • Da-TankDa-Tank Member Posts: 4,074
    edited November -1
    I picked up a couple boxes of Federal Ammunition in 9mm Luger. It's 147 grains JHP and has the load number of XM9HA. The pedals for the JHP seem twice as perforated as normal rounds. It looks like they have two rows of perforations. Does any one know anything about this ammo? I found nothing on the net. Thanks in advance.
  • 22WRF22WRF Member Posts: 3,385
    edited November -1
    45 Auto Rim is also the story of a famous gun, because it was designed in 1920 by Remington-Peters to be used in Smith & Wesson's about-to-be-introduced ".45 Hand Ejector U.S. Service Model Of 1917." Unveiled by S&W's president. Joseph Wesson, on September 16, 1917, the M1917 is important to firearm history.


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  • drobsdrobs Member Posts: 21,858 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    22WRF, are sure it's 45 auto rim and not 45 Scofield?

    Regards,
    gadsden.jpg
  • HangfireHangfire Member Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by drobs
    22WRF, are sure it's 45 auto rim and not 45 Scofield?

    Regards,
    gadsden.jpg



    I don't believe the Schofield was called 45 Gov't...,. The 45 Auto Rim was.

    Love them Pre-64's!!!!-Bob
  • XracerXracer Member Posts: 1,990 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It may be a cartridge that was known as "45 Colt Government", which, according to COTW...."was something of a b*st*rdized cartridge, combining the length of the S&W Schofield revolver round with the rim of the Colt SAA round."

    The Schofield and SAA were both issued to U.S. Troops....but .45 Colt ammo was too long for the Schofield cylinder, and Schofield ammo had too thick a rim for the SAA.

    One can see that having two similar caliber, but different cartridges, for two different issue revolvers could lead to some embarrassing supply problems in the field.

    "When the chips are down, having any ammunition that will fit and work in the gun at hand is much better than throwing rocks."

    ".....the 45 Colt Government, combining the shorter case and smaller rim worked (after a fashion) in either gun."

    "Available information suggests that this cartridge was available between the late 1870s and the 1930s."



    COTW, 9th Edition, Page 306
  • MIKE WISKEYMIKE WISKEY Member Posts: 9,258 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    i've never heard of the .45 a.r. refered to '.45 govt.' but the 'schofield' was intended to replace the .45l.c. as it could be shot in either the colt or s&w.
  • Da-TankDa-Tank Member Posts: 4,074
    edited November -1
    Thanks Guy & Girls. This helps alot,I picked up 40 rounds of the orignal stuff. Now to figure a value.
  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,912
    edited November -1
    Measure the case length; the .45 AR will be essentially the same as the .45 ACP while the .45 Schofield will be longer. My vote is for the Auto Rim. Although . . . I've not seen this headstamp used before on either. Another thought - could have been some reloader's * cutting down .45-70 brass . . . *that* round is frequently identified as the ".45 Gov't." I'd sure want to see and measure some rounds before I ventured a definitive ID.

    "There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain) ". . . And liberals / demoMAGGOTS" (me)
  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,390
    edited November -1
    Hello I have a 12 round box of FRANKFORD ARSENAL 1879 45 Gov.It will fit both the s&w SCHOFIELD and the colt SAA the unopened box is worth BIG $ and loose rounds should bring at least $10 each. quote:"PRAISE THE HARDBALL GUN"
  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,912
    edited November -1
    perry shooter -

    The Army produced .45 revolver ammunition in the Colt case length until 1873. In 1874 they standardized on the Schofield case length of 1.10" (nominal) because, the film industry aside, both weapons were used, not just the SAA. The label terminology varied over the next quarter century, but as a practical matter, it is Schofield ammo. Your ammo may or may not have a headstamp. It may also be exterior primed (box should say something about "Reloading") - if it does, it is mega bucks as the exterior primed design as we know it today was not adopted until 1882 although small development lots were produced from 1877 onward. If these are the standard Benet system inside primed rounds of that era, $10 each is definitely realistic and the sealed box is somewhere north of $200 depending on its condition.

    Da Tank -
    Did a lot of searching. There were no contracts for .45 revolver rounds in the 1800s and Peters didn't begin operations until 1887. In all my references, the term ".45 Govt." is not listed as being used as the title of any revolver ammo by any maker, nor do I have any record of having seen such a usage on a specimen (the latter is purely anecdotal evidence). Commercial Schofield ammo was / is marked ".45 S&W." OTOH, this term is routinely used for .45-70 rifle headstamps. I'm virtually certain that what you have is post WW I rifle brass cut down and formed into some sort of light load / revolver brass.

    "There is nothing lower than the human race - except the french." (Mark Twain) ". . . And liberals / demoMAGGOTS" (me)
  • XracerXracer Member Posts: 1,990 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Here's a way you can tell what you have.

    Measure the case length. .45 Colt is 1.29. Schofield and .45 Colt Gov't is 1.10. .45 Auto Rim is .898.

    If the case length is 1.10, measure the rim diameter. If it's .522 you have the Schofield round. If it's .506 it's .45 Colt Government.
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