Ammo Question/1943

torizus

A friend has a few boxes of military ammo and asked me th approximate value. No pictures yet but they are supposedly in excellent shape.
Frankford Arsenal
45 Cal Ball
Bullseye Powder
1140 FPS

" For HELMET testING ONLY"

Any idea if this is collector grade or where I could look it up ?

perry shooter

Wow that is over 300 FPS over most military Ball . With That marking "for helmet testing only " I would say most Definitely it is collector grade . How much I dont know but put it up for auction with a BUY IT NOW price of $.01 and start the auction about 3AM and only tell me what day you are going to do it[:p][:D][:0][^]. I hope they used something like a bolt action Rifle action with a barrel chambered for 45ACP to fire that stuff I would not want to subject any of my pistols to that kind of +++P+++ load.

rufe-snow

There what are called proof loads, do not under any circumstance either attempt to fire them or sell them as shooting ammo. The muzzle velocity is 300 FPS faster then standard .45 ACP ammo. They must have been fired from some sort of test fixture rather then a hand held pistol.

I have never seen or heard of this type of ammo, previously. It might have very substantial value to a ammo collector, if you have full boxes of them? A lot of this special proof type ammo is sold by the individual round, if they have a distinctive headstamp, or are nickel plated.

XXCross

That is the same loading that came to be known as "metal piercing".
It was derived by using a copper jacket with an aluminum core, hence the high velocity.
There is nothing unsafe about shooting it..

I don't see anything on the box that says "bullseye". The powder listed is a non-canister lot of something else. The aluminum cored bullets used were something in the order of 180 or 200 grain. This type of ammo was standard issue to the local state troopers in the '50's. It does have some collector value however.

torizus

I hope this pict works..a lot more info than previously posted.

rufe-snow

The box being opened and not in the greatest shape will be a negative as far as cartridge collectors, who collect full boxes are concerned.

If the individual cartridges in the box have either a distinctive headstamp, nickel plated, or different projectile they would have value individually to a cartridge collector.

Could you please post photos of one of the cartridges showing headstamp and projectile?

givette

quote:Originally posted by XXCross


That is the same loading that came to be known as "metal piercing".
It was derived by using a copper jacket with an aluminum core, hence the high velocity.
There is nothing unsafe about shooting it..

Whoa, nelly!! Hold the reins! Don't let him out of the barn!!

I just pulled a Lyman reloading manual (period to the bullets loading, perhaps-44th edition) here's there input:

Max loading .45ACP 230gr fmj ball (with same powder as on OP's box)

Bullseye 4.6gr max pressure-as safe for M1911/M1917 .45's

Now with the 4.6gr Bullseye listed as max pressure, the velocity is 798 fpm!! (Is that 8.8gr Bullseye in the photo?)

Any loading of Bullseye that produces the velocities as printed on the box is WAY overpressure. Bullseye has blown lots of handguns over the years, due to sudden pressure spikes due to it being a low-volume powder.

Don't shoot the ammo!!!! Best, Joe

(Edited for clarity)

Edit 2: (Damn..this is like pulling teeth!)
Bullseye powder is not listed on the top of this box. OP has several boxes. Look at the charge weight listed on the box..it's in the single digits. Has to be a low-volume formula. OP said powder is Bullseye. Am I missing something?

11b6r

FWIW, that is a collector's item, and I would NOT shoot it any any 1911 pistol. There WAS a special load made in the mid 30s for the Thomspon SMG by Remington- I have ONE catridge of that- that is longer than the OAL for a .45ACP- and was rated at 1050 ft lbs muzzle energy from the SMG. It is listed in Suydam's US Cartridges and Their Handguns. So, yes, there were non-typical .45 rounds- and that box tells you it is for a special purpose ONLY.

heavyiron

Hi,

Excuse me but this is a special purpose ammunition used to perform the quality control/quality assurance for US metal helmets and armor. This was the only QC/QA testing for US metal helmet strength. The cartridge was loaded to such a level that it was supposed to dent the helmet without perforation of the helmet.

It was initially designed with a velocity of exactly (or as close as possible) to 602 fps which is not a maximum load for the the .45 ACP.

Production of this ammunition began in 1917 and was still being loaded in the 1940's throughout WWII. Ammunition was made by at least Frankford Arsenal and Remington.

In the 1930's Frankford Arsenal loaded a variety of helmet testing ammunition with velocities ranging from 550 to 900 fps.

In the 1940's the design of the helmet testing ammunition was changed to dent armor, but not fracture or perforate it. The ammunition had velocities much higher, in the 1000 fps range, and came in boxes such as the one below with a warning to use safety precautions. testing was performed under controlled conditions.

The cartridges with higher than normal velocities (like below) usually came with a silver painted bullet tip and tinned cases.

Therefore, this is not shooters ammunition but is special purpose ammunition for testing and is collectible ammunition only. It is not made to be fired from 1911 pistols. Its too bad the box has been trashed on this specimen, but you should still be able to sell it at a fairly good price.

The cartridges and box are probably worth more sold together than selling the cartridges and box separately. I would not separate them.

Regards,

Heavyiron

torizus

Thanks to Heavyiron and everyone else, I will look into the collectors value and have decided not to shoot any.