Seller bumps.

lilguy

Is there any way to watch for sellers bumping up the bid on an item?

rufe-snow

If your talking about shill bidding? Only if the auction site is willing and able to check I.P. addresses. Doubtful they would go to this trouble unless there were multiple complaints about one specific seller.

Grasshopper

They probably are some here, BUT, the VAST majority here that I have bought and sold to are honest people. [:)].....nambu

beantownshootah

quote:Originally posted by lilguy
Is there any way to watch for sellers bumping up the bid on an item?

If a seller wants a particular minimum price for their item, they are supposed to set a "reserve" price, or start it at a minimum price.

Sellers can't bid directly on their own auctions, but they can do it with proxy accounts or have friends or relatives do it. That's called "shill" bidding, the "shill" being a phoney bidder who isn't really interested in winning the auction.

This isn't easy to spot. The only way to know for sure is to spot an unusual pattern of the same bidder bidding on multiple auctions from the same seller.

Even that doesn't necessarily prove anything since one bidder can normally bid on multiple auctions from the same seller. For example, lots of bidders here (myself included) bid frequently on auctions by "Locust Fork", a friendly dealer who likes to announce her one-cent no-reserve auctions on the general discussion board.

Also, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with having friends or family members bid on a particular item, so long as they actually willing to pay if they win. If the person bidding is willing to follow through with buying, then the bid is real, and its not a shill bid.

A particularly bad red flag would be a seller relisting items for sale supposedly won by a previous bidder, then allowing that bidder to bid on different items (or even worse, the same item again).

Another red flag would be the same bidder bidding ONLY and ALWAYS on one persons auctions. A bidder having multiple completed auctions without any seller feedback would be another red flag.

The auction site claims to have procedures in place to watch for shill bidding, but needless to say, it won't give the details. Obviously, shill bidding is explicitly prohibited by the rules on EVERY auction site including Gunbroker, since the practice undermines confidence in the market.

While I have absolutely no doubt that shill bidding happens here from time to time (it happens everywhere auctions are conducted), I don't think its all that common, and I can't say I've personally been involved in an auction where I thought it was happening.

In general, shill bidding can help a seller some of the time, if its a non-competitive auction. IE, it can help prevent someone from walking away with a "steal" if there are few bidders. It can also help extract more money from someone who seems absolutely committed to buy a particular item (EG at any price).

But as price-fixers often find out, its actually fairly tough to outsmart the free market. In any sort of competitive auction, or even in some non-competitive ones, a shill bidder may just find that they've outbid the market and cost themselves a sale.

As the saying goes, you can't cheat an honest man. If you are bidding close to what something is actually worth, you can't be hurt too badly by a shill bidder. If you aren't bidding near what something is worth, you probably can't reasonably expect to win the auction.

Grasshopper

quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
quote:Originally posted by lilguy
Is there any way to watch for sellers bumping up the bid on an item?

If a seller wants a particular minimum price for their item, they are supposed to set a "reserve" price, or start it at a minimum price.

Sellers can't bid directly on their own auctions, but they can do it with proxy accounts or have friends or relatives do it. That's called "shill" bidding, the "shill" being a phoney bidder who isn't really interested in winning the auction.

This isn't easy to spot. The only way to know for sure is to spot an unusual pattern of the same bidder bidding on multiple auctions from the same seller.

Even that doesn't necessarily prove anything since one bidder can normally bid on multiple auctions from the same seller. For example, lots of bidders here (myself included) bid frequently on auctions by "Locust Fork", a friendly dealer who likes to announce her one-cent no-reserve auctions on the general discussion board.

Also, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with having friends or family members bid on a particular item, so long as they actually willing to pay if they win. If the person bidding is willing to follow through with buying, then the bid is real, and its not a shill bid.

A particularly bad red flag would be a seller relisting items for sale supposedly won by a previous bidder, then allowing that bidder to bid on different items (or even worse, the same item again).

Another red flag would be the same bidder bidding ONLY and ALWAYS on one persons auctions. A bidder having multiple completed auctions without any seller feedback would be another red flag.

The auction site claims to have procedures in place to watch for shill bidding, but needless to say, it won't give the details. Obviously, shill bidding is explicitly prohibited by the rules on EVERY auction site including Gunbroker, since the practice undermines confidence in the market.

While I have absolutely no doubt that shill bidding happens here from time to time (it happens everywhere auctions are conducted), I don't think its all that common, and I can't say I've personally been involved in an auction where I thought it was happening.

In general, shill bidding can help a seller some of the time, if its a non-competitive auction. IE, it can help prevent someone from walking away with a "steal" if there are few bidders. It can also help extract more money from someone who seems absolutely committed to buy a particular item (EG at any price).

But as price-fixers often find out, its actually fairly tough to outsmart the free market. In any sort of competitive auction, or even in some non-competitive ones, a shill bidder may just find that they've outbid the market and cost themselves a sale.

As the saying goes, you can't cheat an honest man. If you are bidding close to what something is actually worth, you can't be hurt too badly by a shill bidder. If you aren't bidding near what something is worth, you probably can't reasonably expect to win the auction.


Well, thats what I was going to say..[:)],,nambu

lilguy

Thank you. Very informative.

nmyers

To add one additional thing ---- shill bidding rarely pays off because the seller is obligated to pay the auction company their fee when the item "sells". The only way the seller can recoup that fee is to claim that the bidder is a "non-payer"; you might be able to do that once or twice, but non-payer claims are manually reviewed for exactly this kind of fraud.

But, the bottom line should be ---- know the maximum you are willing to pay, & don't get emotional & pay more just because you want to "win".

Neal

He Dog

I think there is little doubt that the puter geeks keeping an eye on things here have programs to sniff out exactly the kinds of bidder patterns that occur with shill bidding, and that it is rare and successful shill bidding even more rare. The worst place you can be in an auction is bidding against someone else who has also decided he just can't go home without the item. That can drive the price to insane levels, and if you are one of the bidders can look like shill bidding. The best plan is to establish your absolute top bid before you ever start bidding and quit there. You win some, you lose some.

lilguy

I got my first big win just below my max bid limit. Still spent alot but I am happy. Mags are a different story ,they are spiking and I do not understand why. The same bidder keeps pushing up the bid on all the Belgium FAL mags.

He Dog

Prices of everything have been spiking since last fall, ammo, mags etc. and stocks in most retailers are spotty. It is the Obama effect. Let that bidder have the mags for now.