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Martini? 8.15x46

litetriggerlitetrigger Member Posts: 320 ✭✭
edited December 2015 in Ask the Experts
Came across a scheutzen type rifle with an action that looks Martini. 8.15x46. with the name R. Sachse on one side of the barrel, and Weissenfels on the other. Does anyone have info. on this? thanks Litetrigger

Comments

  • perry shooterperry shooter Member Posts: 17,390
    edited November -1
    THE 8.15 X 46/ R was a famous target cartridge used in shooting matches most likely GERMAN made between WW I & WW II they even made some rifles that look Like 98 MAUSERS to meet treaty limits in non military
    calibers but were used for training . I had one at one time . You can make ammo with 30 30 cases if you cut down the rim If you double click on my user name You can send me a personal Email and attach pictures or if you have a photo bucket account You can attach pictures from photo bucket to this forum site There was a 2 page artical in the American Rifleman in the 70's about these training type rifles in this cartrige
  • rufe-snowrufe-snow Member Posts: 18,649 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Couldn't find out anything about R. Sachse in my reference. Weissenfels is a town in Eastern Germany. About 70 miles West of Dresden.

    Generally these markings are uniform, on German made firearms. I.E. the name of the gunsmith, and the city or town he was located in. There also should be various German proof marks on the rifle. If you could provide quality photos of the proof marks. They might provide additional information, as approximate date of manufacture etc.

    Many of these Martini target rifles, were brought back after the war. By our G.I.'s, as souvenirs. Some have substantial value, back in the fatherland. Depending on condition, maker, engraving, stock etc.
  • cbyerlycbyerly Member Posts: 689 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a similar rifle. Mine does not have a makers name on it so I assume it is a guild gun. Mine is 8.15X46R however the bore size is .314
  • Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,365 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A friend had one nominal 8.15mm but the bore was so tight he was able to load .30-30 bullets as cast with excellent accuracy.

    The European scheutzen competitor could buy bullets in graduated diameters to get what his barrel needed.
  • charliemeyer007charliemeyer007 Member Posts: 6,579 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Common were shot as cast, swaged and or paper patched. All often breach seated if there wasn't provisions for a false muzzle.

    added Do we get to see pic's?

    City in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weißenfels

    r.sachse could be the smith or the client.
  • nononsensenononsense Member Posts: 10,928 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    litetrigger,

    In order to help with any meaningful information about your rifle we need good, sharp photographs of the rifle and all of the proof marks, many of which may be under the wood.

    Here is the cartridge:

    8_15x46R_Schuetzen_cartridge.jpg

    Here is the drawing of the original bullet design:

    8_15x46R_Schuetzen_bullet_design.jpg

    This is a quick synopsis pilfered from another source but with very good information:

    "The 8.15x46R was also called the "Deutsche Sch?tzenh?lse" = German target shooter's cartridge in old catalogs. GGCA member Bernd Kellner, together with Anderhub and Techel, wrote a whole 208 page book (in German) on it's history and use. Developed 1890 by gunmaker Adolf F.T. Frohn, Stadelstrasse 20, Suhl, it became THE German Sch?tzen target cartridge from 1895 on, setting new accuracy standards. After 1900 it practically replaced all other target cartridge designs. Originally loaded with black powder, it was loaded with smokeless from about 1905 on. pre-packed powder charges and factory swaged lead bullets for reloading were in common use from 1910 on. If you ever find a post-1900 German cf target rifle in another chambering, it will be a freak. Many of the older rifles were rebarreled to 8.15x46R after 1900.

    Target loads all the time used lead bullets in the 120 to 170 gr range, available then in many diameters, .317 - .324", to match individual barrels and preferences. Muzzle velocities of the Target loads usually was about 1300 - 1500 fps. Standard shooting ranges were not 100 and 200 meters, but markedly longer 175 and 300 meters, 191 and 328 yards.

    A factory hunting load for small game up to roebuck was available too. This 8.15x46R load featured a copper jacket Tesco type 151 gr bullet, smokeless powder, mv 1923 fps. This load was not more accurate and not allowed at Sch?tzen target ranges.

    All the various Sch?tzen rifle actions were strong enough for the 8.15x46R target cartridge. They were selected by target shooters not for strength, but for convenience and economy, as all were about as accurate.

    The lowest grade actions were the simplified M71 bolt actions, as made in numbers by the Zella-Mehlis guntrade. These were rated as slightly less accurate because of slower lock time and the one sided lockup by the bolt handle root.

    Next up the ladder were the various "Martini" type actions. Most of these are not really "Martinis", as they use lockworks other than Martinis improvement of Peabody's tilting block action, the coil spring powered striker. Such actions were most popular early on, but had some disadvantages to Sch?tzen eyes. Unless being of Kessler's modification or built as take downs, barrels could not be cleaned from the breech end. Further, access to the chamber is limited by the high action sidewalls, requiring loading from the very top, with space for one finger only.

    Soon the various swinging and falling block actions like the Aydt, B?chel, Tanner and so on became the most popular. As their breechblocks disappeared in the action, below the barrel, these could be cleaned from the breech end without disassembling the breech block. Also, the chamber was accessible from the sides too, even for clumsy hands, to push in or remove stubborn cases."

    Best.
  • sandwarriorsandwarrior Member Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    nononsense,

    I appreciate this post very much. Recently, whilst making my gun shop rounds (much like a dog peeing on corners until kicked in the rear and told not to do that here...), someone had the audacity to tell me the 8.15x46 was the same as a .32 Special. I know this not to be true as the .32 Special is 2.040" which translates to almost 52mm.

    Could this person have been confused thinking instead of the .32-40? I think not, but finding the source was a little difficult out here in my snow laden, bush-whacked, POS internet.
  • Hawk CarseHawk Carse Member Posts: 4,365 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    He might have been THINKING of .32-40, but he was still wrong.
    The .32-40 is even longer than .32 Special.

    You can die form and trim either to make 8.15x46R, but neither is a direct substitute.
  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Two points:1) In Cartridges of the World, dimensions of European cartridges are given. Using a piece of file cardboard , carefully layout an 8.5x46 case, make a cutout & see if you get a nice fit in the chamber before buying custom ammo in the wrong size. I helped a gunsmith by this method AFTER he guessed wrong buying wrong ammo. There were large differences in case dimensions.
    2) The German Martini may differ importantly from Martini/Peabody in having only a small diameter breechblock pivot pin to resist recoil, making it very much weaker than British models. If this is the case I'd use only black powder in standard loadings.
  • MIKE WISKEYMIKE WISKEY Member, Moderator Posts: 9,961 ******
    edited November -1
    " The German Martini may differ importantly from Martini/Peabody in having only a small diameter breechblock pivot pin to resist recoil, making it very much weaker than British models."
    THIS JUST ISN'T TRUE, WITH ANY TRUE 'MARTINI' THE ONLY THING THE "BREECH BLOCK PIVOT PIN" DOES IS TO KEEP THE BREECH BLOCK IN THE RIFLE. IT DOESN'T BEAR ANY LOAD.
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