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Resurrected: Bert H. Seeking opinions on Wincheste

kimikimi Member Posts: 44,723 ✭✭✭
edited October 2017 in Ask the Experts
Good Morning Bert! The 10 limit post got me before I could respond to your last post to me:

In reference to your last comment here, you could be right about the 22-series Sporting sight not being factory installed.? Thank you for clarifying your opinion. ? The elevator of this sight appears to be a dead ringer for the 1A, which would fit this particular era sight and rifle.? Check it out again, and notice the 'very short front end' of the sight as opposed to much longer front ends of the 1B and 1C.

Getting off the subject just a bit, but still addressing sights in general:? When a Lyman 5B is installed on a rifle, most of them might have "nearly always" came with a rear sight blank or a Lyman No. 6 folding sight as you mention, however, there are a great many examples of Model 1890/90s, in all conditions, that do have the factory installed Lyman No. 5B front sights, with either a 22-Series Sporting or 30-Series rear sight, plus the No. 1 or No. 2A tang sights affixed.? Having such a rear barrel sight also increases the number of sighting options made available to shooters that slot blanks limit severely.?

Some of these 3-sight examples are noted in Schwing's book, and also on the back page of the latest Winchester Collector magazine, although this latter example shows a primo special order Whitney-Kennedy.? These three type sights gained a great deal in popularity for the third model 1890/90's.? Slot blanks and Lyman No. 6 sights had and have their place among shooters, but a lot of customers opted for the 22 & 30-Series rear barrel sights for quite obvious reasons. ?

I'd also venture to say that some of the 22 & 30 series sights that were installed on the Model 90 at the factory, were removed soon after in favor of a slot blank, leaving one to think, today, the slot blank was factory installed.

When it comes to Model 90 sights in general, Schwing just flat nailed it on more than one occasion with this quote being one of them:? "If the Model 90 in question has sights that are correct for its production period, then there is no way for the collector to know for certain whether the rifle left the factory with those sights." One can only add that there is no way to know for certain that the sights are not factory installed as well.

James
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Comments

  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    James,

    Unless that rifle letters with those sights, the odds are very high that they were installed after the fact. Because sights were/are the easiest change that an owner could make to his rifle, it happened very frequently. Yes, it is remotely possible that this rifle could have been equipped with the sights currently on it, but the odds are against it. My advice... get a CFM factory letter or research sheet for it.
  • kimikimi Member Posts: 44,723 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bert, I'm not remotely interested in the subject rifle. And, the advice to get a letter, even for a rifle that did leave the factory with special sights, is of little value since special sights are seldom delineated on the factory letters unless, of course, one gets extremely lucky.

    My main point regarding this subject had to do with the 1A elevator, and that's it. That said, you might well be right about the subject rifle not having factory sights, especially since there is not a rear peep sight, or any indication that there ever was one. Still, the possibility exists that it could have had one that was removed not long after leaving the factory.

    The other notes I made have to do with 22 & 30-series rear barrel sights being a common option to the Lyman No. 6 and/or a slot blank, which they were...plus Schwing's quote. Such knowledge cannot be denied with any authority, or great odds, when all other things appear correct.

    Here is a picture of one my Model 1890/90's that has special sights including the rear barrel sight...all of which are far more likely than not, factory installed:

    xzRE4Or.jpg?1
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by kimi
    Bert, I'm not remotely interested in the subject rifle. And, the advice to get a letter, even for a rifle that did leave the factory with special sights, is of little value since special sights are seldom delineated on the factory letters unless, of course, one gets extremely lucky.



    James, I disagree, especially as it applies to the Winchester models that were seldom ordered with special sights or features. I base my stated disagreement on my extensive experience in reviewing the surviving factory ledger records over the past 25+ years, and on the many hundred of entries I have seen where special sights were listed.

    The true reason (in my learned experience) why special order sights are frequently not listed on factory letters is simply because they were not originally on the gun when it left the factory. Many collectors believe the same thing you apparently do, but my research strongly suggests otherwise. While there are indeed a small number of instances when a special order feature was overlooked or omitted from the factory ledger records, it was not a common occurrence.

    What was/is common, is the propensity for people to upgrade their Winchesters over the many years after they left the factory. Because no physical alterations are necessary to swap sights on most Winchester models, it is very difficult to detect when or if it has occurred. That stated, I have surveyed more than 40,000 total Winchesters over the past 30+ years, and I have frequently seen the same guns many different times over that same time span... with different (upgraded) sights on them. There is (in my opinion) a false perception among collectors concerning the frequency at which sights are swapped (upgraded). It is a very common practice among the many not so honest dealers, and I have personally caught them in the act of doing it! [V]
  • kimikimi Member Posts: 44,723 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Football and baseball kept me glued to the TV last night! Houston beat a very tough Yankee team last night to advance to the World Series for only the second time in their history! Go 'Stros!!

    Bert, what Winchester models are you referring to that were seldom ordered with special sights?? Please give me an example or two so that I can focus better on this note.? As for my note regarding letters not specifying special sights, I'll admit that the WACA forum comments over the years has swayed my opinion to this end.? And, sights are not the only feature that a factory letter might not address, again, according to some of the knowledge passed on at the Winchester Collector forum.? That said, thank you for your input on this point.

    There does appear to be a big divide among folks who apparently do have a great deal of first hand experience and knowledge about Winchester letters and this particular subject, to varying degrees, and I am not one of them.? Wouldn't it be nice, though, if someone conducted a survey regarding Winchesters, letters, and features...(don't count me as a volunteer, though).? At the very least, some degree of clarity would no doubt emerge...and clarity in terms of probability, aside from descriptions such as, for example, 'most always' or 'rarely' could be dispensed with for greater accuracy to this end.


    I hear you on the propensity bit and understand that changing sights out for any 'great' number of reasons is common and has always been done.? However, there are a great many high condition Winchesters that are, say, 75 to 100 years old that have special sights that could not 'possibly' match any better than they do, and they are void of any evidence that would lead anyone to believe that such sights are not factory original.? So, why do some people, Bert, cast aspersions with blanket statements about such rifles that, without a doubt, appear to be factory done in every respect? ? Such a propensity, without clarifying remarks is, indeed, an extremely serious problem in our collecting community.?
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    James,

    In answer to your question, quote:what Winchester models are you referring to that were seldom ordered with special sights? I am referring to the Models 1873, 1890, 1892, and 1894. As a percentage of the whole, less than 1% of them were ordered with special sights.

    Having been involved in the Winchester collecting community for nearly 40-years now, I know for a fact that swapping sights is by far the most common event that occurs on collectable Winchesters. Further, I personally know dozens of dealers who opening admit that the sights currently on the rifles they are selling are not original, and the purveying thought process they have (as stated to me) is the same one you mention... "special order sights were frequently omitted from the factory records, so who cares what sights it has on it now". I have personally sat and watched them swap sights on new acquisitions behind their tables at many different gun shows over the years. Again, with just a modicum of skill and the proper tools, sights can be swapped with no evidence that it has ever transpired.
  • kimikimi Member Posts: 44,723 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    James,

    In answer to your question, quote:what Winchester models are you referring to that were seldom ordered with special sights? I am referring to the Models 1873, 1890, 1892, and 1894. As a percentage of the whole, less than 1% of them were ordered with special sights.

    Having been involved in the Winchester collecting community for nearly 40-years now, I know for a fact that swapping sights is by far the most common event that occurs on collectable Winchesters. Further, I personally know dozens of dealers who opening admit that the sights currently on the rifles they are selling are not original, and the purveying thought process they have (as stated to me) is the same one you mention... "special order sights were frequently omitted from the factory records, so who cares what sights it has on it now". I have personally sat and watched them swap sights on new acquisitions behind their tables at many different gun shows over the years. Again, with just a modicum of skill and the proper tools, sights can be swapped with no evidence that it has ever transpired.




    Bert, I figured you might have been referring to some of these models. Yes, I am familiar with the 1% figure as regards special sights for the Model 1890. And, that is a lot of rifles that are known to have special sights when one considers that over 300,000 were produced and have existing records.

    Schwing has noted the actual percentage was 0.9% of SN 1-329,999 in his book, as you would know. Schwing has also made note that up to 2.0% of the 3rd Models had special sights. So, when one considers that about 800,000 were produced, that's a whole heck of a lot of rifles with special sights, considerably more than 1% on the whole.

    Yes, a lot of them have had their sights swapped out/changed out, for numerous reasons...not just for the purpose of ripping someone off. I get that, Bert, and I don't like it any more than you do. But, this is what we "all" need to get: A lot of the subject model Winchesters have had special order sights, or non-standard sights, installed at the factory, and they remain in totally original condition with the exact same sights they left the factory with to this very moment - and the factory does not have records for the majority of these rifles. And, rest assured that a very small percentage of them, for example, have the Lyman 5B front sight, with a 22 or 30-series rear barrel sight on them, in addition to the tang sight. If we can get this sort of understanding and actively promote it, then collecting Winchesters can become a whole lot more fun for literally everyone, without anyone having to think the only way to collecting Winchesters with special sights or non-standard sights can only be done through buying Winchesters that have letters. That is not a pretty picture to paint for anyone, most especially newbies. This is a very serious problem with collecting Winchesters today, as I see it.

    I think we also need to remember that some of these rifles have never been out of the family, or anywhere near some two bit hustler or dealer's hands, and a whole lot of them simply go from one collector to another. We also need to believe that not all dealers engage in this sort of activity, but actually think like us where preserving historical items are concerned. And, lastly we would do well by following Schwing's approach to determining, for example, the originality of sights on the 1890/90.
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    James,

    For edification purposes allow me to quantify the assumed number of Model 1890 rifles factory equipped with special order sights;

    Based on a current survey, there were approximately 801,293 Model 1890/90 rifles manufactured.

    329,000 x .9% (.009) = 2,961
    471,294 (801,293 - 329,000) x 2% (.02) = 9,426
    2,961 + 9,426 = 12,387
    12,387 / 801,293 = .0154 or 1.54% of the total production.

    Statistically, 1.54% is not "considerably more than 1% of the whole". Instead, it is a relatively negligible difference. Further, of the assumed 1.54% number, a fair number of them will letter with the special order sights (approximately 90% of the .9% in the 1 - 329999 serial number range).

    I admire the fact that you want to believe in and trust people, and that you believe that dealers & collectors are honest people. My experiences in this subject matter have not supported that belief, and in that regard, I do not share your faith.

    At this point, we need to just agree to disagree on this subject. further discussion is unlikely to sway your opinion, or mine.
  • kimikimi Member Posts: 44,723 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
    James,

    For edification purposes allow me to quantify the assumed number of Model 1890 rifles factory equipped with special order sights;

    Based on a current survey, there were approximately 801,293 Model 1890/90 rifles manufactured.

    329,000 x .9% (.009) = 2,961
    471,294 (801,293 - 329,000) x 2% (.02) = 9,426
    2,961 + 9,426 = 12,387
    12,387 / 801,293 = .0154 or 1.54% of the total production.

    Statistically, 1.54% is not "considerably more than 1% of the whole". Instead, it is a relatively negligible difference. Further, of the assumed 1.54% number, a fair number of them will letter with the special order sights (approximately 90% of the .9% in the 1 - 329999 serial number range).

    I admire the fact that you want to believe in and trust people, and that you believe that dealers & collectors are honest people. My experiences in this subject matter have not supported that belief, and in that regard, I do not share your faith.

    At this point, we need to just agree to disagree on this subject. further discussion is unlikely to sway your opinion, or mine.





    Good evening, Bert. Thank you for the numbers as they are very helpful to the discussion. Percentage wise .54% seems very small indeed, however, in terms of numbers of rifles with non-standard or special sights...it is a great difference, and this is what prompted my remarks.

    I do not think either of us is trying to sway each other's opinion where trust in honest people is concerned. I think it has more to do with persuading people that some guns, outside the lettering range, are just as likely to be factory original as not and, therefore, highly collectible.

    Are you going to make the Puyallup show?

    Added:

    I never did make many of their shows due to lack of interesting guns, displays, and such. I was just thinking that the October show would be better than the pitiful norm.
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  • Bert H.Bert H. Member Posts: 11,279 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    James,

    Due to the passage of I-594 a few years ago, the WAC shows in Puyallup and Monroe have significantly declined, both in the total number of vendor table numbers, and in the number of people attending the shows. Further, the current group of people running the WAC organization (Board of Directors) are in my opinion, idiots. I dropped my membership at the end of 2016, and I have no intention of supporting the WAC in the near future... so No, I will not be attending the show in Puyallup.

    Added:

    Ordinarily, the October show is the best one of the entire year, but it too has gone down hill. Typically, the October show had more "collectors" with tables than the usual vendors, but with the current law (even though it is not being actively enforced outside of the gun show), many of the collectors stopped attending the show. I have no desire to look at tables full of non collectable guns and other junk.
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