1890 Winchester with Lyman No. 1- Question

critter3030

Hi guys. Just picked up an 1890 in 22 short and I have a couple questions for the 1890 gurus out there. The gun's a second model, serial no. 237646. That would give it a manufacture date of 1905. I believe the gun to be 100% original and not messed with. I'd say the gun would rate 30 to 40% overall. The numbers match. The receiver is entirely brown. The mag tube retains about 40% blue while the barrel is about 50% but with light pitting across most surfaces. The bore would rate very good and is bright and shiney with good rifleing. The wood is very good with perfect wood/metal fit, very few dings and 100% original finish. The inerternals a very clean and the gun functions flawlessly.

My question concerns the sights. The front sight is the standard model found on these guns. The rear dovetail is filled with a blank that appears to be the same age as the rest of the gun. The gun has a lyman no. 1 (not 1A) tang sight that matches the condition of the rest of the gun. I pulled the lyman off the gun and found the blue under it to be absolutely pristine. Obviously, the sight has been on the gun a long time. The only markings on the sight are "Lyman" on the upright section and "WS" on the underside of the base.

I'm wondering if these sights were ever factory installed. If so, does this make any significant difference in the value of the gun. I could send for a letter from Cody but hate to spend the $70 unless the potential increase in the value of the gun would justify it. The gun's a sweet little shooter and looks great next to my 3rd model 22WRF. Thanks in advance for any information you can send my way.

ochoco

The WS is the application code for the Winchester Model 1890 and 1906 on the Lyman #1 tang sight.

charliemeyer007

WS - Winchester Models 1890, 1906, 62 & 62A

My dad had 90 in short with an octagon barrel he got back in the early 30's. It was like 98%+. It was one of the few rifles he had that I didn't get to take hunting or shooting.

I have 06 that I like a lot. Not as smooth as my 121 Remington but I do like the outside hammer.

added:
Tough call based on condition if the additional expense of the factory letter would add to the value of a shooter. You could look under the sight base, if the bluing looks pristine then perhaps the tang sight has been there since new. A letter saying it was born that way would at least add the cost of the letter.

Bert H.

Yes, Winchester factory installed Lyman tangs sights on special order, and it should be indicated on the factory letter. Yes, a correct Lyman tang sight will add at least a few hundred $$$ to the value of the rifle.

critter3030

A question for Bert. First let me say thanks for all you do educating guys like me about these old Winchesters. Based on my description of the gun and your experience with these rifles, would this likely be a special order feature or was it more common for folks to makes these changes themselves? My dilemma is that I didn't pay a lot for the gun and I am hesitant to increase my costs a bunch by ordering the letter.

1873man

Sights were frequently added to guns after they were sold. Just like a deer rifle you would buy today. I would say only 5% of the guns will letter with a sight as factory installed. The only thing that my be a incentive is if the gun had any other options like case hardened receiver.

Bob

Bert H.

quote:Originally posted by critter3030
A question for Bert. First let me say thanks for all you do educating guys like me about these old Winchesters. Based on my description of the gun and your experience with these rifles, would this likely be a special order feature or was it more common for folks to makes these changes themselves? My dilemma is that I didn't pay a lot for the gun and I am hesitant to increase my costs a bunch by ordering the letter.


In answer to your first question, it is much more common to find tang sights that were added after the gun was purchased. That stated, based on your description of the rifle's condition, there is a 50-50 chance that it was installed by Winchester as a special order feature. The absolute pristine bluing under the sight base on a rifle that is now in 30-40% condition is clue #1. Clue #2 is that it has the correct application code. Clue #3 is that it is a No. 1 versus a No. 1A (the 1A was introduced in late 1905). I personally would expect to find a factory installed No. 1 on your rifle.

Now, and with all of that stated, the value of the rifle goes up with the Lyman No. 1 regardless if it was factory installed. The sight all by itself is worth at least $150. I would not be overly concerned about getting a factory letter to authenticate it... leave that up to a future owner if they so desire.

critter3030

Thanks for your responses. I think I'll take Bert's advise and hold off on the letter. It'd be nice to determine the originality of the gun but either way it's a nice piece of history.

MG1890

Hi,
I am a dedicated 1890 collector. My opinion is that you should get the letter. The current sight configuration may or may not be original. The rear sight blank is a little odd, I would expect a sight of some type. Also, the rifle could letter with something completely different. 1890's that letter with ANY special order feature bring premium $$$$$. If you suspect the Lyman #1 is original, spend the dough on a letter.

I bought a 1st model WRF with non original sights. I lettered it, lo and behold it lettered with an Express front and Sporting rear. Since there are only 40 or so 1st models with special sights, the letter was well worth the investment.

Roll the dice.

critter3030

Hi MG1890. Was hoping you'd chime in. Dang, now I'm torn. I'm definitely curious about the gun. The fact that Bert is betting his money on "original" makes it even tougher. What kind of increase in value are we talking about if it letters with the Lyman tang sight? Some have suggested that guns special ordered with the lyman no. 1 would also likely have a non-standard front as well. I have also wondered about the possibility of other special order features. Guess I'll have to think about this one some more!

kimi

critter3030: If it is all possible to take and post up some pictures of your sight that show the markings I'd certainly like to see it.

Interesting subject!

critter3030

Hi Kimi. I don't think that my camera would do a very good job of picking up the markings as they are TINY. I've looked closely and the only markings are the ones I previously described. The word LYMAN is located on a small flat area immediately below the knurled height adjustment device on the rear of the sight. The only other marking I could find is a very small WS on the underside of the base. The flip down aperature is present but seems to be stuck and I am hesitant to force it. Maybe there's some trick to operating it that I'm unaware of. This is the first Lyman #1 I have owned.