FFL needed for gunsmithing or refinishing?

rballi

Do you need an FFL for gunsmithing or refinishing services? These people I know want to get into the gun cleaning / refinishing business as a hobby. They mainly want to clean up old rusty guns, do some reblueing and even some plating. They have been doing it with gun parts (triggers, hammers, cylinders, etc). They have re-done some of my parts and they do pretty good work. Do they need any special license to have whole guns in their shop? I know they can't recieve a complete gun or frame by mail or carrier, but can someone drop off a complete gun to be worked on?

compgunfire

If they intend to do gunsmithing they will need an FFL. Any gun left for them to work on without the owner present will require a license. If a gun is left overnite or longer in their shop, they will need a license.Don't forget about liability insurance and any special permit(s) that your City, State and local govt.'s will require.

roysha

Specifically, where does it state these regulations? When I inquired about this exact situation, the gestapo idiot (atf agent)I spoke with said there was no such thing as a "Gunsmith" license and as long as income records, for tax purposes,were kept and guns were handled in person, no shipping and/or receiving via mail or common carrier or anything across state lines, one could repair to there hearts content. Typically, it appears once again they have no idea what they are talking about, one way or another!!

compgunfire

ATF is correct, there is no such thing as a "gunsmithing only" license. A regular FFL lic. is required. A home hobbist doing gunsmithing could get by without the lic., by keeping a low profile (sounds like what you're friend is doing now), but to engage in the business, they should go and obtain an FFL. Part of the business is having the necessary lic.s and if his work is as good as you say, his refinishing work will pay those lic. fees.

roysha

Okay. I guess I'm just too dense to understand, but why is a license required to to gunsmith work if you are not doing things such as shipping, etc that necessitate a license? If there is no "Gunsmith" license needed to gunsmith, why is an FFL needed? When ever I rebarrel and want to make a really nice job of it, after it is blued, instead of just stamping the caliber on the barrel, I take the barreled receiver down to one of the engraving shops and have the caliber engraved on it. They usually take 3-4 days. Are you saying that they need an FFL for that? You gotta know they won't do it. I don't blame them. But if that is the case, then I will have to quit taking them the barreled receiver so they don't get in a lash up. And I'm not going to install a highly polished barrel into the receiver after it is engraved, so taking just the barrel down is not an option. Another door shut to gun owners and users. As far as the cost of permits, that is insignifigant compared to the intrusion of the gestapo every time they come around for compliance checks. I have never met a single decent human that worked for the atf. In fact I'm not sure I have ever even met a human that worked for the atf. I think one of the requirements to even apply for a job there is to be the biggest a-- possible.

rballi

Thanks for the input. What gets me is that if guns are not being sold, shipped, or received by mail, why the need for the license? These are simply cosmetic services, no trigger jobs, machining, or mods to the guns other than what is already on it.Does a mechanic or paint & body shop need a car dealers license to work on cars?

EOD Guy

He does not need an FFL if he does not receive firearms from out of state. He cannot, however receive firearms from an FFL holder (including a C&R) if he keeps them overnight.Please note that state laws on transfers of firearms may change things.[This message has been edited by EOD Guy (edited 10-23-2001).]

nmyers@home.com

According to the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (ATF P5300.4) p. 45, a gunsmith is: "A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;" So, it appears that this so-called "overnight" rule is a fiction.Although I found nothing in the licensing requirements, p. 100 states, "..a gunsmith is a licensed firearms dealer..." My guess is that BATF assumes that it is not possible for a gunsmith who is a non-licensee to work on guns without violating the laws concerning interstate shipment of firearms.Neal

EOD Guy

The overnight rule exists in the requirement that a gunsmith does not have to enter a firearm into his bound book if he returns it to a customer in the same business day. If he retains it overnight (into the next business day), he must enter it into his bound book (ATF Rule 77-1).

The Gun Doctor

copied from the ATF web site...I. GUNSMITHS (I1) Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms? [Back]Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer. [27 CFR 178.11] (I2) Does a gunsmith need to enter in a permanent "bound book" record every firearm received for adjustment or repair? [Back]If a firearm is brought in for repairs and the owner waits while it is being repaired or if the gunsmith is able to return the firearm to the owner during the same business day, it is not necessary to list the firearm in the "bound book" as an "acquisition." If the gunsmith has possession of the firearm from one business day to another or longer, the firearm must be recorded as an "acquisition" and a "disposition" in the permanent "bound book" record. [27 CFR 178.125( e)] (I3) Is ATF Form 4473 required when a gunsmith returns a repaired firearm? [Back] No, provided the firearm is returned to the person from whom received. [27 CFR 178.124( a)] (I4) May a gunsmith make immediate repairs at locations other than his or her place of business? [Back]Yes. (I5) May a licensed gunsmith receive an NFA firearm for purposes of repair? [Back] Yes, for the sole purpose of repair and subsequent return to its owner. It is suggested that the owner obtain permission from ATF for the transfer by completing and mailing ATF Form 5 to the NFA Branch and receive approval prior to the delivery. The gunsmith should do the same prior to returning the firearm. Only the face of the form need be completed in each instance. ATF Forms 5 may be obtained from the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch, Washington, DC 20226, (202) 927-8330. (I6) Is a licensed gunsmith required to comply with the requirements to give written notification to handgun transferees and post signs on juvenile handgun possession? [Back]The requirement that written notification on juvenile handgun possession be given to a nonlicensee to whom a handgun is delivered applies to all Federal firearms licensees. It also applies to the return of handguns to their owners, as well as to their sale. Thus, a gunsmith who repairs or customizes a nonlicensee's handgun must provide the notification to the nonlicensee when the handgun is returned. The sign posting requirement also applies to gunsmiths, unless the gunsmith only disposes of handguns to nonlicensees who do not appear at the gunsmith's licensed premises, for example, when repaired handguns are shipped to nonlicensees. [18 U. S. C. 922( x), 27 CFR 178.103] (I7) Is a licensed gunsmith's return of repaired or customized firearms to their owners subject to the Brady law, including the provision for making background checks on transferees? [Back]No, but it is unlawful to transfer a firearm to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person is a felon or is within any other category of person prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms. (See also Question P25.) [18 U. S. C. 922( d), 27 CFR 178.32( d)]

rballi

Thanks gundoctor.I guess that pretty much sums it up.